Noah's Flood

Job 33:6 · Sep 12, 2020

GirdYourLoins said:
I'm going to throw in the old chestnut that God being omnipotent, can do anything He likes. For example He could make carbon in various states that scientists, in the incredibly short period of time we have been able to measure the radioactivity in it, have interpreted as being decay over millions of years. Or maybe the rate of decay has been misinterpreted.
Several years ago I read a very interesting newspaper article on how carbon dating works. What they said it comes down to is the rate of carbon decay was deduced from the assumption of the age of the carbon being dated. They took fossils that they "knew" the age of dated and the carbon from them. It went on to say that if that assumption of the age was incorrect carbon dating was based on flawed data.
In order to test it they took a piece of wood that was of known origin. The dates are from memory but definitely very close although I cant be 100% they are exact. It had records to show it was 250 years old. It was from a building that had records that said when the trees were planted, when they were cut down and when the building was made. Samples were sent to 3 carbon dating labs. They came back with results something like 250,000 years, 20 million years and 250 million years (this one may have been 200 million, but I think it was 250).
The fact is this is fallible man's interpretation. There is evidence that supports most of man's theories being flawed. As Dr Brian Cox said when I heard him on a radio interview, the big bang and evolution are still called theories and taught as true as they are what we consider to be true to the best of our ability. But we used to "know" that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth until our understanding improved. It is entirely possible that a lot of what we are taught as truth now will be proved wrong in the future. So if you want to have faith in science and believe mans interpretation go ahead, I wont try to stop you.
I will put my faith in God telling the truth and it not needing proving beyond doubt. That's why its called faith.

Carbon dating cannot date objects to the large dates that you mentioned above (20 million-250 million). It's like saying that a basketball player shot a basketball at a hoop that was a mile away and missed. Your recollection of the article, if accurate, is nonsensical.

What you were likely reading was unscientific misinformation.

Job 33:6 · Sep 12, 2020

Steven Beck said:
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The pre-flood Earth did not have plate tectonics nor high mountains. The flood was caused by the breaking of the Earth's crust. See Atlantic Rift and Pacific Rift. There was water between the crust and the mantle and this water was under enormous pressure. As the crust ripped apart this water was ejected into the atmosphere where it cooled rapidly and fell as rain. The crust now ripped apart in various other places and plates were created and these started moving around and crashed into each other forming the mountain ranges that we now have.
Why do all cultures have flood stories? Well all cultures are the progeny of Noah, Ham, Shem and Japheth and they all told the flood story.

Mountains existed before the formation of the mid oceanic ridge. And we know this because deformation exists, superpositionally and stratigraphically deeper than the mid oceanic ridge itself. Superposition meaning, older rocks are below younger rocks. So if you have evidence of deformation that created mountains in lower rocks, it follows that such mountains existed before deformation caused by rifting of the mid oceanic ridge.

coffee4u · Sep 12, 2020

Quartermaine said:
oh the "thick moisture blanket. Right. to have sufficient moisture to flood the earth it would have to be miles thick. Meaning that sunlight couldn't get through it so the earth would have been pitch black. Such a blanket would increase air pressure to thousands of pounds per square inch so...it would matter is there was no sunlight because everything should be crushed under the weight. And the "blanket" would act like a blanket keeping heat in and giving way to a runaway greenhouse effect. the surface temperature of the crushed lightness earth woudl be thousand of degrees, enough that the whole thing woudl be molten

Did I say anywhere that the only water to flood the earth came from the thick vapour canopy?

The flood came from above and below.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

1an · Sep 12, 2020

.
The flood covered the whole earth. Satan from a mountain top showed Jesus the kingdoms of the whole earth. The whole earth was only as far as the eye could see. The Bible says locusts covered the whole earth, the whole earth being Israel, and then probably not all of it. Noah never went to America collecting animals, he did not have a boat, he only collected those local to him. For the Israelites the whole earth was Israel.
.

Redwingfan9 · Sep 12, 2020

Online.Gamer.79 said:
Christians who take every part of the bible literally, the flood according to the bible happened a little over 4000 years ago. A global flood like that 20 feet over the tallest mountain. Your water 4 miles deep. A flood like that would have ripped the earth to pieces and flattened every thing. The oldest man made structure go back 10's of thousands of years none of them would have survived the flood. Geology, biology, physics, and astronomy and carbon dating (Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases). The bible is the history and myths of the Jewish people. That does not mean god is not real but it does mean, the earth is not flat, diseases were caused by germs not evil spirits, the earth is not the center of the universe. The people of the ancient world believed what they believed out of ignorance. Now as for a massive destructive flood like the Black sea flood, that is probably the truth of the flood that every culture on the planet has a story for. But as for the bibles version of the flood it did not happen.

If we view scripture as myth we do not actually believe in God but rather in a god of our own creation. Faith requires us to believe that which we cannot see or comprehend.

dcalling · Sep 12, 2020

Brightmoon said:
Let me fix that radiodating thing. Carbon dating is only good for a maximum of 50,000 years . Theoretically 80,000 but practically 40,000 years . Radiodating includes a lot of other radioactive nuclides.

And Dr Snelling was a pet peeve of mine. He Reported an error bar result as a valid single date . Reporting a radiodating result of this-rock-is-less-than-2.3-million-years-old as this rock is exactly 2.3 million years old . ( I’m sorta paraphrasing) . The rock was 50 years old and was dated using a technique normally used on very, very, very ,old rocks . The lab told him that the rock was less than 2.3 million years old. Which was true, 50 is less than 2.3 million . The lab just couldn’t narrow it down any further because of the use of the wrong technique, which the creationists specifically requested.

It was just either ignorance or blatant dishonesty . If ignorance he needs to give back that PhD. If dishonesty he should be ashamed to lie like that

I think you miss the point, if a lab told you a rock is less than 2.3 million years old turned out to be 50 years old, it is correct but the dating method is rather useless ....

i.e. a lab claim they can correctly predict any living human's age, all they do is tell you they are less than 1 million years old. The Lab is correct but useless.

Brightmoon · Sep 12, 2020

I guess you misunderstood. That’s exactly what I meant . Snellings radiodating experiment gave a useless answer but not a wrong one. It’s like using your car mileage meter to measure a inch . You’re going to get the answer that it’s less than 1/10 of a mile . It’s not wrong just useless

for y’all who use sensible units - It’s like measuring a centimeter with your car which measures in kilometers

Quartermaine · Sep 12, 2020

coffee4u said:
Did I say anywhere that the only water to flood the earth came from the thick vapour canopy?

The flood came from above and below.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

and the pressure of all that water in the mantle would have roped the crust of the earth clean off. It certainly woudln't have made rain as when it did reach the surface it woudl be moving well past escape velocity.

doctorwho29 · Sep 12, 2020

It's all literal/real. Of course you have to account for literary style and culture but the Flood is as plain as day. It happened.

johneb · Sep 12, 2020

Ron has made some interesting observations,

Scott Husted · Sep 12, 2020

Online.Gamer.79 said:
Christians who take every part of the bible literally, the flood according to the bible happened a little over 4000 years ago. A global flood like that 20 feet over the tallest mountain. Your water 4 miles deep. A flood like that would have ripped the earth to pieces and flattened every thing. The oldest man made structure go back 10's of thousands of years none of them would have survived the flood. Geology, biology, physics, and astronomy and carbon dating (Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases). The bible is the history and myths of the Jewish people. That does not mean god is not real but it does mean, the earth is not flat, diseases were caused by germs not evil spirits, the earth is not the center of the universe. The people of the ancient world believed what they believed out of ignorance. Now as for a massive destructive flood like the Black sea flood, that is probably the truth of the flood that every culture on the planet has a story for. But as for the bibles version of the flood it did not happen.

Well you don't think knowledge actually grows on a literal tree ...

Genesis is inclusive of the law, but as Paul found the law speaks to inward realities.

GirdYourLoins · Sep 12, 2020

Quartermaine said:
This is a pretty well known fraud. Carbon dating pretty much has a limit of being able to date anything to 50,000 years. No Carbon dating could show 250000 years much less 250 million

It was the Observer newspaper in the UK, but was over 20 years ago. They had a reputation of being reliable and trustworthy and it wasnt a fake. At that time I wasnt a Christian. If you think this is fake please provide evidence from a reputable source.

Brightmoon · Sep 12, 2020

GirdYourLoins said:
It was the Observer newspaper in the UK, but was over 20 years ago. They had a reputation of being reliable and trustworthy and it wasnt a fake. At that time I wasnt a Christian. If you think this is fake please provide evidence from a reputable source.

carbon 14 has a halflife of about 5000 years ( I rounded it) , let’s give it about 200 lbs to start. After 5000 years you’re left with half ( 1/2) 100 lbs
10000 years 1/4 or 50 lbs
15000 years 1/8 or 25 lbs
20000 years1/16 or 12.5 lbs
25000 years 1/32 or 6.25 lbs
30,000 years 1/64 or 3.125 lbs
35,000 years 1/128 or 1.5625 lbs Rounded to 1.6
40,000 years 1/256 or .8
45,000 years 1/512 or .4
50,000 years 1/1024 or .2

It helps to remember at this point that you started with 200 lbs of pure C14 and after 50 thousand years you’ve got about 1/4 lb left

Question for you. How much do you think would be left after 65 million years ?

when real scientists tell you that the C14 found in non avian dinosaur bones is due to contamination maybe now you’ll accept that they’re not lying or hiding something.

This also points out why real scientists don’t use C14 on non avian dinosaurs. It’s a pure waste of time, equipment and money . Any scientist who does this is an ignoramus or a liar

Oaktree125 · Sep 12, 2020

Online.Gamer.79 said:
Christians who take every part of the bible literally, the flood according to the bible happened a little over 4000 years ago. A global flood like that 20 feet over the tallest mountain. Your water 4 miles deep. A flood like that would have ripped the earth to pieces and flattened every thing. The oldest man made structure go back 10's of thousands of years none of them would have survived the flood. Geology, biology, physics, and astronomy and carbon dating (Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases). The bible is the history and myths of the Jewish people. That does not mean god is not real but it does mean, the earth is not flat, diseases were caused by germs not evil spirits, the earth is not the center of the universe. The people of the ancient world believed what they believed out of ignorance. Now as for a massive destructive flood like the Black sea flood, that is probably the truth of the flood that every culture on the planet has a story for. But as for the bibles version of the flood it did not happen.

Im actually in the process of trying to understand the implications of NOT squeezing it all into a small amount of time. Since we fully believe in Gods transcendent nature I get the distinct impression that God is often communicating information that is multidirectional in time. Specifically I mean:

God divides the waters in Genesis in to seas, sky, and aquifers to let dry land appear. The only way I know to reconstruct the presence of the global dirt covering flood is to invoke time. By exactly following the Scriptural division I can only conserve the initial quantity of water by projecting all the positions of all water molecules in the water cycle over vast amounts of time. This is the only mental way i know to reconstruct anything even in the neighbor of accurate. Time, lots of it makes a tropospheric Flood.
So if lots of time is passing outside of the ark Noah would be dust so he has to be insulated. The Scripture formula is the pitch on the trees. Given Passover that would be God's formula for keeping out death. God is causing the ark to be filled with animals and God is causing the time shift while He works to destroy the land under the flood.
We can continue to apply this idea to other activity of God and find that it provides the best rational explanation for miraculous events.

coffee4u · Sep 12, 2020

1an said:
.
The flood covered the whole earth. Satan from a mountain top showed Jesus the kingdoms of the whole earth. The whole earth was only as far as the eye could see. The Bible says locusts covered the whole earth, the whole earth being Israel, and then probably not all of it. Noah never went to America collecting animals, he did not have a boat, he only collected those local to him. For the Israelites the whole earth was Israel.
.

I disagree, the whole earth involved in the flood was the entire earth.

1) The rainbow of Gods promise to never flood the earth like that again would be meaningless if the flood was local since there have been many local floods since.
Genesis 9:11
I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

2) The vapour canopy which allowed pre-flood people to live to extremely long ages became a thin layer which is why life spans rapidly decreased after the flood. It came down all around the world not just in one part.

3) The New Testament says the world will be like it was at the time of Noah when Jesus comes again.
Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The second coming is for the whole earth and every eye will see, it is not for one section of the world.

coffee4u · Sep 12, 2020

Quartermaine said:
and the pressure of all that water in the mantle would have roped the crust of the earth clean off. It certainly woudln't have made rain as when it did reach the surface it woudl be moving well past escape velocity.

You do realize that the global flood was a God-directed event not just some random flood, doing whatever it wanted to, right?

It did what God wanted it to do and one of those things was ripping apart the crust into continents.

1an · Sep 12, 2020

coffee4u said:
I disagree, the whole earth involved in the flood was the entire earth.

1) The rainbow of Gods promise to never flood the earth like that again would be meaningless if the flood was local since there have been many local floods since.
Genesis 9:11
I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

2) The vapour canopy which allowed pre-flood people to live to extremely long ages became a thin layer which is why life spans rapidly decreased after the flood. It came down all around the world not just in one part.

3) The New Testament says the world will be like it was at the time of Noah when Jesus comes again.
Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The second coming is for the whole earth and every eye will see, it is not for one section of the world.

You disagree when the whole of the Old Testament is about Israel and their land, to the exclusion of other continents. The Babylonians were untouched. It was only early Israel God was punishing, not other nations.

Suit yourself what you believe. This is why everything is such a mess.
.

coffee4u · Sep 12, 2020

1an said:
You disagree when the whole of the Old Testament is about Israel and their land, to the exclusion of other continents. The Babylonians were untouched.

Suite yourself what you believe. This is why everything is such a mess.

I believe the scriptures.

You just ignored all three points.

9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”

17 So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth.”

This covenant is to all life on the earth not just Israel.

1an · Sep 12, 2020

coffee4u said:
I believe the scriptures.

You just ignored all three points.

9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”

17 So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth.”

This covenant is to all life on the earth not just Israel.

The whole earth and the nations in it were not destroyed. There were other nations before the Israeilites and the Old Testament is all about THEM not the whole world. They did not even know America existed.

Quartermaine · Sep 12, 2020

GirdYourLoins said:
2) The vapour canopy which allowed pre-flood people to live to extremely long ages became a thin layer which is why life spans rapidly decreased after the flood. It came down all around the world not just in one part.

how did this vapor canopy extend life expectancy? By crushing people under it's enormous pressure?

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