• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Apple Sky

In Sight Like Unto An Emerald
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2024
7,366
965
South Wales
✟247,546.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,329
1,825
76
Paignton
✟75,558.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
For a start, DNA wasn't even discovered until the 20th century. I understand that DNA molecules are a thirty-thousandth of the diameter of a human hair.

I understand about building cities, but what do you mean about creating Centaurs? I'm assuming that you are using the usual meaning of Centaur, a creature in Greek mythology with the head, arms, and torso of a man and the body and legs of a horse. Where do we read that Noah created such a thing?
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,329
1,825
76
Paignton
✟75,558.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Noah didn't create such beings it was the people around at such time as Noah.
But centaurs were mythological creatures - part man, part horse. You seem to be saying that people of Noah's day created living beings, and not just any living beings, but those which only appear in Greek myths. I hope you are not saying that the bible teaches such a thing.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,942
1,717
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟320,259.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Which you can not prove.
lol can anyone prove any flood story and its origin. Its a case of looking at all the evidence and trying to deduce what was most likely. I think there are two basic facts. There were mega floods that make the local floods insignificant that humans experienced in the distant past.

There were early flood myths well before Noahs and the Gilgamesh flood stories. I posted the evidence for the mega floods already. We know that humans were living at the time and were capable through glyphs and other signs to express this event that they ancestors went through.

Ancient Sea Rise Tale Told Accurately for 10,000 Years
Without using written languages, Australian tribes passed memories of life before, and during, post-glacial shoreline inundations through hundreds of generations as high-fidelity oral history. Some tribes can still point to islands that no longer exist—and provide their original names.

New geological evidence etched in the land itself is suggesting catastrophic events in early earth history that could be more than myth. It’s lesser known that the bible is one of the hundreds of prehistoric and global flood accounts. These stories are often dismissed as localized memories of small events. Today, the evidence is mounting for a global flood that caused sea levels to rise at the end of the last ice age.

North Africa, Australia, Siberia, Mongolia, parts of the Middle East, Much of South America as well as Northern Europe are among the places that show evidence of mega-scale flooding that occurred around the time the ice sheets over North America melted.

With the archaeological discovery of Gobekli Tepe, a 12,000-year-old mega site in southeastern Turkey, as well as in 2002 with the discovery of a 10,000-year-old city found submerged under 130 feet of water off the coast of West India in the Gulf of Cambay.

In light of these latest findings, is it possible today to assume that a worldwide flood, roughly 10,000 years ago, may have been the one our ancestors labeled as the Great Flood?

There is no geological evidence for a global sized flood. None. (I thought you were looking for a single large, non-global flood at the end of the last glacial maximum as the source of the legend(s).)
When I say global sized flood I don't mean it covered the entire earth. Only that it was big enough to cover large portions especially where humans lived in the NH which was virtually the world.
I suppose, but you have no evidence of a flood the ancestors of the Sumerians would have passed down to them in legend.
I think we do which is the large floods that hit that area another 6,000 or more years before the Sumerians.

The fact is their ancestors were around when this mega flood hit and the survivors would have recorded this event and from this point they already have a flood myth to beat all flood myths from an actual global sized event. Not a local flood that pales into insignificance much later.
I don't know I have seen some of the signatures and they sure look pretty big and sudden. It may well be that there were many mega floods but there were some that came suddenly as well. This also coincides with similar floods happening around Europe, the middle each and NA.

Altogether they mount to a period where if a flood myth would be created about a world wide event it was these floods. At the very least most cultures would have experienced or knew of those who experienced or survived these floods and this began the flood myths.

Estimates for the volumes of water to be moved across North America show geological scars require flows at 752,000,000 cubic feet per second.



I think this scar was the result of



Their pretty big ripples

But look at North Africa. This looks like a continent size flood to me. North Africa for a long time had giant rivers flowing through it after the giant flood which only dried up around 6,000 years ago. The scaring you see across NA is from raging water scraping off the bedrock.




There was no contact between the witnesses (if any) of the North American glacial floods and Mesopotamia.
Yes but the North American cultures had their own flood myths from the flood events well before the Sumerians. So did the Sumerians. They all came from the ancient mega floods at the end of the last iceage.

While prehistoric humans were experiencing mega floods in NA other primitives were experiencing the same all over the NH. It may not have been at the same time but within that historical period.

The point being all cultures gained their myths long ago from this same event and passed this down to the Sumerians, and other civilised cultures that came around 6,000 years ago or more who were those who came and rebuilt after the floods.

What is "the NH"?
Sorry I was lazy. Northern Hemisphere. You will see it also above lol.
How can you possibly demonstrate that? You are one step away from claiming nonsense like Jung's "Race memory".
Its logic really. If there was such a mega flood that wiped out cities on the coast pretty quickly then this would have been a topic often mentioned. Especially in that these ancient peoplles looked at disasters as from the gods. Earthquakes, cyclones anf floods are from the gods.

So a mega flood would be deeply ingrained. Those who lived through this and survived would be telling their stories to the tribes and this would have become a story told from generation to generation.

I gave you evidence of how the Aboriginals had passed down these stories over 1,000s of years. Even knowing locations of where Islands and coastal places use to be and now covered. Something the ancestors would have passed down in remeber exact locations being attached to the land.

DELUGE IN POLYNESIAN MYTHOLOGY
A variety of flood-myths have been recorded within the region delimited by Hawai’i in the northeast, Tonga (and even Fiji to the west of it and in the area of Outlier Polynesia) and New Zealand in the southeast.

But I would regard the Island nations to be somewhat different considering they don't live on the mainland. Perhaps this was brought to them or they came across flood stories in their travels.
The floods at the end of the ice age I described above were not (near) extinction events. North and South America were largely unaffected as were any people who already lived there.
I thought this was also a time when many Megafauna died.

AI Overview


A significant number of megafauna species went extinct around the world at the end of the last ice age, coinciding with a period of rapid climate change and rising sea levels, often referred to as the "great flood" or the end-Pleistocene extinction event.
This period, roughly 11,700 years ago, saw the extinction of many large mammals, including mammoths, mastodons, and giant ground sloths, particularly in North America, South America, and Australia.
There is evidence of such a flood in geology or genetics, no near extinction event.
Yeah I am not saying an extinction event like the Dinos. But significant amounts of animals, mammals were lost and I would say people as well during these floods.

Another aspect in the stories in that the present day or post civilised cultures who end up coming up after these floods is that many speak of finding ancient ruins as though some disaster hot them. They inherit many ancient stone works from some previous ancient people they say were from the gods.

As though the flood came wiped out these ancient cultures and then the post flood peoples come along later and inherit this previous culture incorporating their works into their own.
Most of that made no sense at all, particularly when you started with Jesus (I think) then revelation to Abra(ha)m and then talk about Noah. This doesn't even make sense in terms of the narrative in Genesis.
Basically I am saying for the Judeo Christian God that there is usually some event in human history that humans naturally attribute to the gods and that God uses this to reveal who He is to us. God is utilising the flood myth all cultures make to reveal Himself by using an already existing misplaced belief.

Anyway as you said your not a Christian and therefore this would be irrelevant to you.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,942
1,717
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟320,259.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And you're doing the same old problem of starting with the conclusion and working backwards through the evidence we have to try and prove your hypothesis right. You're doing bad science. Stop it.
Actually I have been doing this for some time. The conclusion is the hypothesis from the research so far. But its not fixed and its open to change. Heck you can turn it upside down if you want lol. If that is what is needed to test the hypothesis.

But I also mentioned it may be called a hypothesis if you could call such a idea. Because we are not just dealing with the hard sciences but also anthropology, culture and belief and as far as I know science cannot handle such ideas as far as testable hypothesis.

So we can look at the evidence for mega floods and the stories that sprung up as a result. But reconciling this to Genesis is another story. Then your stepping into theology and belief and how this works socially and culturally.

Though this can be mapped out to some degree ie similar cognitions, beliefs and behaviours beyond culture. Its hard to then make a case for one belief being the true source. Its hard making a testable case for any belief full stop.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,305
21,472
Flatland
✟1,087,818.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I'm not sure, why do you think that God wanted to destroy everything ?
The flood was a "type", representing the death and re-birth of baptism which would be later introduced by John the Baptist.
 
Reactions: BCP1928
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,773
52,551
Guam
✟5,134,846.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm not sure, why do you think that God wanted to destroy everything ?

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

On August Recess
Mar 11, 2017
21,824
16,447
55
USA
✟413,847.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
lol can anyone prove any flood story and its origin. Its a case of looking at all the evidence and trying to deduce what was most likely.
That's the point, Steve. You can't demonstrate anything with these flood myths. Not at all.
I think there are two basic facts. There were mega floods that make the local floods insignificant that humans experienced in the distant past.
These "mega floods" are large compared to how far people can walk in a day, but do not affect large regions of the planet. The are just "mega local".
None of the mega floods are anywhere near Mesopotamia. You should stick to ones that could actually affect the stories you are trying to validate.
They may have preserved the locations of some submerged islands, but we don't know how many their ancestors used to know about, how many they forgot, and how many other claims are for things that aren't there. Further, "original names" is not a claim SA can support and they shouldn't have made it.
I'm not addressing things from kook websites like that one.
Or that one.
When I say global sized flood I don't mean it covered the entire earth. Only that it was big enough to cover large portions especially where humans lived in the NH which was virtually the world.
But they don't cover large portions of the world, or even North America. The Missoula Floods are largely confined to a portion of one US state -- Washington.

The draining of Lake Ojibway only impacted the downstream Ottawa River, but left behind the productive "Clay Belt".

The draining of Glacial Lake Wisconsin carved a new route for the Wisconsin River through the Dells of the Wisconsin and flooded the river valley down stream and left behind a sandy, productive lake bottom.

Any witnesses (who survived) lived at the margins of an ice sheet. Not exactly highly populated.
What flood that "hit the area" (of the Sumerians) 6000 years before them? What flood? You've got a bunch of floods in other parts of the world that had zero impact on Mesopotamia. Name these "floods".
Nowhere near Sumeria. Try again.
All in Washington state from the Missoula floods. Closer to Beijing than Sumer.
LOL. Now you are just drawing lines on sand patterns in the desert and calling them flood paths. The very minimum needed is to understand the wind patterns for wind blown sands first. The Sahara dried up around 6000-8000 years ago (look up "green Sahara" as the post-glacial climate warmed up. There are actual river beds from that period, but they are not mega floods.
Yes but the North American cultures had their own flood myths from the flood events well before the Sumerians. So did the Sumerians. They all came from the ancient mega floods at the end of the last iceage.
This needs to be demonstrated. You have not.
While prehistoric humans were experiencing mega floods in NA other primitives were experiencing the same all over the NH. It may not have been at the same time but within that historical period.
Not "all over North America". Only at margins of the ice sheets.
The point being all cultures gained their myths long ago from this same event and passed this down to the Sumerians, and other civilised cultures that came around 6,000 years ago or more who were those who came and rebuilt after the floods.
North America was not in contact with Sumeria.
Sorry I was lazy. Northern Hemisphere. You will see it also above lol.
OK
That's not "logic", it is wild speculation.
I took a brief look at it. Not sure what to make of it as academic culture studies are not written in a style I am familiar with. Perhaps I shall look closer later, but at least you have provided some evidence of similar sorts of floods as was your claim.
I thought this was also a time when many Megafauna died.
Oh, I thought you were talking about people being wiped out. These post are too long to follow. I have to open a copy of the post to which I am replying in another tab just to see the context of what you wrote.
Not interested in what AIs say about anything.
Yeah I am not saying an extinction event like the Dinos. But significant amounts of animals, mammals were lost and I would say people as well during these floods.
Megafauna disappeared throughout North America and Siberia, very little of either experienced a flood event.
Oh brother.
That's some weak sauce for a very ineffective method of "revelation". I think your god deserves better from you.
Anyway as you said your not a Christian and therefore this would be irrelevant to you.
I considered it from within the context given in Genesis. Belief in the accuracy of that book is not needed to do that analysis.
 
Reactions: dlamberth
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,329
1,825
76
Paignton
✟75,558.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure, why do you think that God wanted to destroy everything ?
I don't understand your question. Your post was in reply to me saying, "You seem to be saying that people of Noah's day created living beings, and not just any living beings, but those which only appear in Greek myths. I hope you are not saying that the bible teaches such a thing."

God's reason for destroying the earth in a world-wide Flood is given in Genesis:

“5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 ¶ And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”” (Ge 6:5-7 NKJV)

Centaurs are not mentioned in the bible, nor is man creating living beings, so I am still wondering where you got the idea that the people of Noah's day created not just living beings, but mythological beings like centaurs.
 
Upvote 0

BCP1928

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2024
8,721
4,386
82
Goldsboro NC
✟262,180.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
What I don't understand is why it is necessary to identify a particular flood as the one which gave gave rise to the Noah story.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,773
52,551
Guam
✟5,134,846.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

I'm not sure, but what I think Sky is referring to is the fact that fallen angels in Noah's time took our women as wives, impregnated them, and their offspring were giants.

As to the Centaurs, maybe those fallen angels were [pun] horsing around [/pun] with DNA and creating a bunch of cryptids that fizzled out due to sterility or something.

You know -- mixing human DNA with horses (centaurs), or fish (mermaids/mermen), bulls (minotaurs), etc.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,329
1,825
76
Paignton
✟75,558.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
That may be what she meant, but if so, my question would be, "Where in the bible do we read of any angels, fallen or not, having the power to create?"
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,942
1,717
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟320,259.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What I don't understand is why it is necessary to identify a particular flood as the one which gave gave rise to the Noah story.
I thought that was what everyone was going on about. What is Noahs flood and what are the flood stories overall as to what they represent to humans and even reality itself ie there are two different realities where one has no God or gods and these stories are purely su[erstition and make believe.

Or the other where these biblical stories reflect a deeper reality about humans and a reality beyond the atheist and material reality.

So it follows that we want to work out what these stories represent. For the Christians its Noah. And then whether Noahs story in the context of all stories. Which one best aligns with the evidence including lived experiences.
 
Upvote 0

BCP1928

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2024
8,721
4,386
82
Goldsboro NC
✟262,180.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
We're talking about a story in a book about a flood. Whether there was an actual identifiable flood which gave the author the basis of the story, or whether he just based it on the general idea that big floods are catastrophies is an interesting question, but it has nothing to do with whether or not God exists or the atheist versus theist worldview or anything like that.
Or the other where these biblical stories reflect a deeper reality about humans and a reality beyond the atheist and material reality.
That's the point of them, is it not? We certainly don't read the Noah story to learn about hydrology.
So it follows that we want to work out what these stories represent. For the Christians its Noah. And then whether Noahs story in the context of all stories. Which one best aligns with the evidence including lived experiences.
What is it that we want to work out? I don't quite follow you. Which one what?
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,122
3,437
✟995,872.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Ancient accounts from a prehistory of a people group are going to be highly goal driven and certainly the Hebrews don't escape this. The account serves a purpose and the purpose is more important than the details. The details may take on a contextual form but are ultimately there to support the goal not the contextual form they put on. Once we find the purpose we need to ask ourselves if a non-literal account can still accomplish the goal of the account? If it can, then it doesn't matter if it's literal/factual (or not) and it means the repercussions of a literal/factual or non-literal account also don't matter so we can use our engery better, for example the study of the redemptive story the account shows us and how it points to Christ for me is far more impactful.
 
Reactions: BCP1928
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,773
52,551
Guam
✟5,134,846.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ancient accounts from a prehistory of a people group are going to be highly goal driven and certainly the Hebrews don't escape this.

The Hebrews didn't write about the Flood.

Noah did.

The account serves a purpose and the purpose is more important than the details.

That account got Noah into the Hall of Faith Chapter in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


If Noah lied about the account, then it wouldn't have been recorded in the New Testament as factual.

The details may take on a contextual form but are ultimately there to support the goal not the contextual form they put on.

The Flood story is both.

It is factual as well as exemplary.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Once we find the purpose we need to ask ourselves if a non-literal account can still accomplish the goal of the account?

The purpose of the Flood is well documented.

You don't have to go looking for it.


The story has both an A and B side.

A is literal; B is exemplary.

If you want to dwell on the B side, help yourself.

But don't deny the A side.

The A side means a lot to me; the B side means a lot to you.

In doing so, it's almost as if you're telling me your faith is in jeopardy if you find out the Flood story was literal.

That sounds weird to me.

Why would anyone base their faith on a story in the Bible being made up?
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,122
3,437
✟995,872.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Hebrews didn't write about the Flood.

Noah did.

What part of Genesis did Noah pick up his pen and then put it down? or did he write the whole thing, even the accounts, after his death?

Even traditional sources tell us Moses is the author, today it is thought of as even later survived through oral traditionn over written. Either way this is why I call it a Hebrew account since it's penned version is meant for the post-exodus Hebrews, so our starting point in term of purpose is thusly


The flood viewed as non-literal doesn't impact the message of Hebrews 11. It still holds true since the truth message transcends the account itself and is true with or without the account. You've mentioned the account is both "factual as well as exemplary," so does that mean the factual only has meaning and the exemplary should be ignored? Which parts or factual and which parts of exemplary so we know which to value and which to not? What if it was 50% exemplary and 50% factual? Can we still agree this has no consequence to the meaning of Hebrews 11:7? so how about 60/40? what about 70/30 or 80/20... how about 99/1 of even 100% exemplary? at what point do we call the whole thing hogwash and throw out Hebrews and with that the entire book of Genesis? Here's the secret: It doesn't matter. Hebrews still has meaning and however you slice up the flood, it has no impact on its redemptive message.

What if I were to tell you some parables Christ spoke of also never happened? does that change how you view the parables? the parables have a goal that goes well beyond the details presented; the details are there only to support the goal, not the other way around so when we study it, we need to always keep the purpose in mind because without the purpose the account is meaningless.

The Flood story is both.

It is factual as well as exemplary.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Cor 10:11 is regarding post-exodus accounts. Your views on the pillar of fire/cloud, or the bronze snake, are noted but what does that have to do with Noah?

The purpose of the Flood is well documented.

You don't have to go looking for it.

the purpose is the crux of the account and the details are there to align to the purpose, not the other way around. I'm not trying to set you up for me to point the finger. I'll be transparent with you, the purpose of the account uses the flood account to show the corruption of the earth and it's subsequent rescue through 8 people. It has a redemptive message tied with baptism that points to Christ himself, as 1 Peter 3 articulates and it would be more productive for us to study this message than its literal counterpart. The message has an abstract goal and the account is for a post-exodus audience some 800-900 years later, the literal details have less relevance than its redemptive message; the distance of time makes the details less and less important and the abstract message more and more important.

Did the event of Noah happen? did he pen it down (or etch)? I have no idea but the surviving message we have is a post-exodus account. No doubt a retelling of an oral account much older but with a redemptive goal that is intentional and that is the more important message than it's factual happening.


The account of Noah is constructed in quite a lengthy chiastic pattern. This can be used as a mnemonic device which was common with Hebrews (the creation account is in a chiastic structure) or for abstract meaning, but also shows us the text is massaged to fit this chiastic structure. We know the text has a redemptive message; if a person built an ark and carried a bunch of animals on it ir not is really missing the point and has nothing to do with the goal of the account. It doesn't matter if it was real or not, as the redemptive message still holds. I am not denying if it happened or not (I'm officially agnostic about a literal flood), I'm stating the literal or non-literal happening has no consequence upon our faith, as the redemptive message still holds. We don't actually need a literal flood for the account to still have meaning, and the absence of a literal flood does not take away from its meaning.

You've challenged my faith with the literal flood but I have no issue with the flood or without. So is your faith contingent upon the flood happening? It's just not a core tenet of my faith, and I hang on its literalness loosely. Something like the factual person of Jesus, his virgin birth, his death on the cross, his resurrection, etc..., is a core tenet of my faith and very quickly a non-negotable But with the flood, It really doesn't matter either way and I'm happy with a flood and happy without it because in both cases it still points to Jesus as my redeemer and that is far more important.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,773
52,551
Guam
✟5,134,846.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But with the flood, It really doesn't matter either way and I'm happy with a flood and happy without it because in both cases it still points to Jesus as my redeemer and that is far more important.

Let's leave it at that then, shall we?

I don't care to engage in a long drawn-out discussion with someone who has to abandon the English language to make his points.

Suffice it to say, I believe Jesus' parables were real events that took place.
 
Upvote 0