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I am sure we do underestimate the abilities of people of Noah's day. However, I think it is too much of a stretch to imagine him having the knowledge and ability to splice DNA.
For a start, DNA wasn't even discovered until the 20th century. I understand that DNA molecules are a thirty-thousandth of the diameter of a human hair.Why ? They had the knoledge to build cities & to create the Centaurs etc... which God wanted rid of, why wouldn't Noah have had the know how on how to do this ?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiqwJCOlcGOAxX4VEEAHYZuOcQQFnoECCEQAQ&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurs_in_popular_culture&usg=AOvVaw0VzeQnLq8TIzJDMtBmtNbw&opi=89978449
Where do we read that Noah created such a thing?
But centaurs were mythological creatures - part man, part horse. You seem to be saying that people of Noah's day created living beings, and not just any living beings, but those which only appear in Greek myths. I hope you are not saying that the bible teaches such a thing.Noah didn't create such beings it was the people around at such time as Noah.
lol can anyone prove any flood story and its origin. Its a case of looking at all the evidence and trying to deduce what was most likely. I think there are two basic facts. There were mega floods that make the local floods insignificant that humans experienced in the distant past.Which you can not prove.
When I say global sized flood I don't mean it covered the entire earth. Only that it was big enough to cover large portions especially where humans lived in the NH which was virtually the world.There is no geological evidence for a global sized flood. None. (I thought you were looking for a single large, non-global flood at the end of the last glacial maximum as the source of the legend(s).)
I think we do which is the large floods that hit that area another 6,000 or more years before the Sumerians.I suppose, but you have no evidence of a flood the ancestors of the Sumerians would have passed down to them in legend.
I don't know I have seen some of the signatures and they sure look pretty big and sudden. It may well be that there were many mega floods but there were some that came suddenly as well. This also coincides with similar floods happening around Europe, the middle each and NA.The Missoula Floods where themselves not a single event, but dozens of floods over about 2000 years. Then there is the Bonneville Flood and the draining of glacial Lakes Ojibway and Wisconsin are all separate and independent and collectively cover a period of about 7000 years (15000 bp to 8000 bp). The ONLY thing they have in common is that they are connected to the melting and retreat of the ice sheets of the Wisconsonian glaciation. While they are locally large, none was even close to continental in scope. They are NOT the thing you think you are looking at.
Yes but the North American cultures had their own flood myths from the flood events well before the Sumerians. So did the Sumerians. They all came from the ancient mega floods at the end of the last iceage.There was no contact between the witnesses (if any) of the North American glacial floods and Mesopotamia.
Sorry I was lazy. Northern Hemisphere. You will see it also above lol.What is "the NH"?
Its logic really. If there was such a mega flood that wiped out cities on the coast pretty quickly then this would have been a topic often mentioned. Especially in that these ancient peoplles looked at disasters as from the gods. Earthquakes, cyclones anf floods are from the gods.How can you possibly demonstrate that? You are one step away from claiming nonsense like Jung's "Race memory".
The Polynesian expansion is well understood. We know where they came from. If you have an actual flood story from Rapa Nui, then post a link to it. I have just reviewed their mythology as best I could and I see nothing of floods or even rivers or rising waters.
I thought this was also a time when many Megafauna died.The floods at the end of the ice age I described above were not (near) extinction events. North and South America were largely unaffected as were any people who already lived there.
Yeah I am not saying an extinction event like the Dinos. But significant amounts of animals, mammals were lost and I would say people as well during these floods.There is evidence of such a flood in geology or genetics, no near extinction event.
Basically I am saying for the Judeo Christian God that there is usually some event in human history that humans naturally attribute to the gods and that God uses this to reveal who He is to us. God is utilising the flood myth all cultures make to reveal Himself by using an already existing misplaced belief.Most of that made no sense at all, particularly when you started with Jesus (I think) then revelation to Abra(ha)m and then talk about Noah. This doesn't even make sense in terms of the narrative in Genesis.
I hope you are not saying that the bible teaches such a thing.
Actually I have been doing this for some time. The conclusion is the hypothesis from the research so far. But its not fixed and its open to change. Heck you can turn it upside down if you want lol. If that is what is needed to test the hypothesis.And you're doing the same old problem of starting with the conclusion and working backwards through the evidence we have to try and prove your hypothesis right. You're doing bad science. Stop it.
The flood was a "type", representing the death and re-birth of baptism which would be later introduced by John the Baptist.I'm not sure, why do you think that God wanted to destroy everything ?
I'm not sure, why do you think that God wanted to destroy everything ?
That's the point, Steve. You can't demonstrate anything with these flood myths. Not at all.lol can anyone prove any flood story and its origin. Its a case of looking at all the evidence and trying to deduce what was most likely.
These "mega floods" are large compared to how far people can walk in a day, but do not affect large regions of the planet. The are just "mega local".I think there are two basic facts. There were mega floods that make the local floods insignificant that humans experienced in the distant past.
None of the mega floods are anywhere near Mesopotamia. You should stick to ones that could actually affect the stories you are trying to validate.There were early flood myths well before Noahs and the Gilgamesh flood stories. I posted the evidence for the mega floods already. We know that humans were living at the time and were capable through glyphs and other signs to express this event that they ancestors went through.
They may have preserved the locations of some submerged islands, but we don't know how many their ancestors used to know about, how many they forgot, and how many other claims are for things that aren't there. Further, "original names" is not a claim SA can support and they shouldn't have made it.Ancient Sea Rise Tale Told Accurately for 10,000 Years
Without using written languages, Australian tribes passed memories of life before, and during, post-glacial shoreline inundations through hundreds of generations as high-fidelity oral history. Some tribes can still point to islands that no longer exist—and provide their original names.
Ancient Sea Rise Tale Told Accurately for 10,000 Years
Aboriginal stories of lost islands match up with underwater finds in Australiawww.scientificamerican.com
I'm not addressing things from kook websites like that one.New geological evidence etched in the land itself is suggesting catastrophic events in early earth history that could be more than myth. It’s lesser known that the bible is one of the hundreds of prehistoric and global flood accounts. These stories are often dismissed as localized memories of small events. Today, the evidence is mounting for a global flood that caused sea levels to rise at the end of the last ice age.
North Africa, Australia, Siberia, Mongolia, parts of the Middle East, Much of South America as well as Northern Europe are among the places that show evidence of mega-scale flooding that occurred around the time the ice sheets over North America melted.
Early Earth History & The Great Flood
Flood stories exist in cultures all over the planet. Why is this so? Today evidence is mounting towards the great flood that occurred at the boundary of the Younger Dryas period. A massive amount of water was distributed from Ice-Caps due to the end of the last ice age. Did a flood of gigantic...humanoriginproject.com
Or that one.With the archaeological discovery of Gobekli Tepe, a 12,000-year-old mega site in southeastern Turkey, as well as in 2002 with the discovery of a 10,000-year-old city found submerged under 130 feet of water off the coast of West India in the Gulf of Cambay.
In light of these latest findings, is it possible today to assume that a worldwide flood, roughly 10,000 years ago, may have been the one our ancestors labeled as the Great Flood?
Evidence of The Great Flood – Real or a Myth? Part II
The story of a “Great Flood” is a widespread account shared by many religions and cultures around the world, and dates back to our earliest recorded history.www.ancient-origins.net
But they don't cover large portions of the world, or even North America. The Missoula Floods are largely confined to a portion of one US state -- Washington.When I say global sized flood I don't mean it covered the entire earth. Only that it was big enough to cover large portions especially where humans lived in the NH which was virtually the world.
What flood that "hit the area" (of the Sumerians) 6000 years before them? What flood? You've got a bunch of floods in other parts of the world that had zero impact on Mesopotamia. Name these "floods".I think we do which is the large floods that hit that area another 6,000 or more years before the Sumerians.
The fact is their ancestors were around when this mega flood hit and the survivors would have recorded this event and from this point they already have a flood myth to beat all flood myths from an actual global sized event. Not a local flood that pales into insignificance much later.
Nowhere near Sumeria. Try again.I don't know I have seen some of the signatures and they sure look pretty big and sudden. It may well be that there were many mega floods but there were some that came suddenly as well. This also coincides with similar floods happening around Europe, the middle each and NA.
All in Washington state from the Missoula floods. Closer to Beijing than Sumer.Altogether they mount to a period where if a flood myth would be created about a world wide event it was these floods. At the very least most cultures would have experienced or knew of those who experienced or survived these floods and this began the flood myths.
Estimates for the volumes of water to be moved across North America show geological scars require flows at 752,000,000 cubic feet per second.
View attachment 367474
I think this scar was the result of
View attachment 367476
Their pretty big ripples
LOL. Now you are just drawing lines on sand patterns in the desert and calling them flood paths. The very minimum needed is to understand the wind patterns for wind blown sands first. The Sahara dried up around 6000-8000 years ago (look up "green Sahara" as the post-glacial climate warmed up. There are actual river beds from that period, but they are not mega floods.But look at North Africa. This looks like a continent size flood to me. North Africa for a long time had giant rivers flowing through it after the giant flood which only dried up around 6,000 years ago. The scaring you see across NA is from raging water scraping off the bedrock.
View attachment 367479
View attachment 367478
This needs to be demonstrated. You have not.Yes but the North American cultures had their own flood myths from the flood events well before the Sumerians. So did the Sumerians. They all came from the ancient mega floods at the end of the last iceage.
Not "all over North America". Only at margins of the ice sheets.While prehistoric humans were experiencing mega floods in NA other primitives were experiencing the same all over the NH. It may not have been at the same time but within that historical period.
North America was not in contact with Sumeria.The point being all cultures gained their myths long ago from this same event and passed this down to the Sumerians, and other civilised cultures that came around 6,000 years ago or more who were those who came and rebuilt after the floods.
OKSorry I was lazy. Northern Hemisphere. You will see it also above lol.
That's not "logic", it is wild speculation.Its logic really. If there was such a mega flood that wiped out cities on the coast pretty quickly then this would have been a topic often mentioned. Especially in that these ancient peoplles looked at disasters as from the gods. Earthquakes, cyclones anf floods are from the gods.
So a mega flood would be deeply ingrained. Those who lived through this and survived would be telling their stories to the tribes and this would have become a story told from generation to generation.
I took a brief look at it. Not sure what to make of it as academic culture studies are not written in a style I am familiar with. Perhaps I shall look closer later, but at least you have provided some evidence of similar sorts of floods as was your claim.I gave you evidence of how the Aboriginals had passed down these stories over 1,000s of years. Even knowing locations of where Islands and coastal places use to be and now covered. Something the ancestors would have passed down in remeber exact locations being attached to the land.
DELUGE IN POLYNESIAN MYTHOLOGY
A variety of flood-myths have been recorded within the region delimited by Hawai’i in the northeast, Tonga (and even Fiji to the west of it and in the area of Outlier Polynesia) and New Zealand in the southeast.
But I would regard the Island nations to be somewhat different considering they don't live on the mainland. Perhaps this was brought to them or they came across flood stories in their travels.
Oh, I thought you were talking about people being wiped out. These post are too long to follow. I have to open a copy of the post to which I am replying in another tab just to see the context of what you wrote.I thought this was also a time when many Megafauna died.
Not interested in what AIs say about anything.AI Overview
A significant number of megafauna species went extinct around the world at the end of the last ice age, coinciding with a period of rapid climate change and rising sea levels, often referred to as the "great flood" or the end-Pleistocene extinction event. This period, roughly 11,700 years ago, saw the extinction of many large mammals, including mammoths, mastodons, and giant ground sloths, particularly in North America, South America, and Australia.
Megafauna disappeared throughout North America and Siberia, very little of either experienced a flood event.Yeah I am not saying an extinction event like the Dinos. But significant amounts of animals, mammals were lost and I would say people as well during these floods.
Oh brother.Another aspect in the stories in that the present day or post civilised cultures who end up coming up after these floods is that many speak of finding ancient ruins as though some disaster hot them. They inherit many ancient stone works from some previous ancient people they say were from the gods.
As though the flood came wiped out these ancient cultures and then the post flood peoples come along later and inherit this previous culture incorporating their works into their own.
That's some weak sauce for a very ineffective method of "revelation". I think your god deserves better from you.Basically I am saying for the Judeo Christian God that there is usually some event in human history that humans naturally attribute to the gods and that God uses this to reveal who He is to us. God is utilising the flood myth all cultures make to reveal Himself by using an already existing misplaced belief.
I considered it from within the context given in Genesis. Belief in the accuracy of that book is not needed to do that analysis.Anyway as you said your not a Christian and therefore this would be irrelevant to you.
I don't understand your question. Your post was in reply to me saying, "You seem to be saying that people of Noah's day created living beings, and not just any living beings, but those which only appear in Greek myths. I hope you are not saying that the bible teaches such a thing."I'm not sure, why do you think that God wanted to destroy everything ?
What I don't understand is why it is necessary to identify a particular flood as the one which gave gave rise to the Noah story.Actually I have been doing this for some time. The conclusion is the hypothesis from the research so far. But its not fixed and its open to change. Heck you can turn it upside down if you want lol. If that is what is needed to test the hypothesis.
But I also mentioned it may be called a hypothesis if you could call such a idea. Because we are not just dealing with the hard sciences but also anthropology, culture and belief and as far as I know science cannot handle such ideas as far as testable hypothesis.
So we can look at the evidence for mega floods and the stories that sprung up as a result. But reconciling this to Genesis is another story. Then your stepping into theology and belief and how this works socially and culturally.
Though this can be mapped out to some degree ie similar cognitions, beliefs and behaviours beyond culture. Its hard to then make a case for one belief being the true source. Its hard making a testable case for any belief full stop.
I don't understand your question. Your post was in reply to me saying, "You seem to be saying that people of Noah's day created living beings, and not just any living beings, but those which only appear in Greek myths. I hope you are not saying that the bible teaches such a thing."
That may be what she meant, but if so, my question would be, "Where in the bible do we read of any angels, fallen or not, having the power to create?"I'm not sure, but what I think Sky is referring to is the fact that fallen angels in Noah's time took our women as wives, impregnated them, and their offspring were giants.
As to the Centaurs, maybe those fallen angels were [pun] horsing around [/pun] with DNA and creating a bunch of cryptids that fizzled out due to sterility or something.
You know -- mixing human DNA with horses (centaurs), or fish (mermaids/mermen), bulls (minotaurs), etc.
I thought that was what everyone was going on about. What is Noahs flood and what are the flood stories overall as to what they represent to humans and even reality itself ie there are two different realities where one has no God or gods and these stories are purely su[erstition and make believe.What I don't understand is why it is necessary to identify a particular flood as the one which gave gave rise to the Noah story.
We're talking about a story in a book about a flood. Whether there was an actual identifiable flood which gave the author the basis of the story, or whether he just based it on the general idea that big floods are catastrophies is an interesting question, but it has nothing to do with whether or not God exists or the atheist versus theist worldview or anything like that.I thought that was what everyone was going on about. What is Noahs flood and what are the flood stories overall as to what they represent to humans and even reality itself ie there are two different realities where one has no God or gods and these stories are purely su[erstition and make believe.
That's the point of them, is it not? We certainly don't read the Noah story to learn about hydrology.Or the other where these biblical stories reflect a deeper reality about humans and a reality beyond the atheist and material reality.
What is it that we want to work out? I don't quite follow you. Which one what?So it follows that we want to work out what these stories represent. For the Christians its Noah. And then whether Noahs story in the context of all stories. Which one best aligns with the evidence including lived experiences.
Ancient accounts from a prehistory of a people group are going to be highly goal driven and certainly the Hebrews don't escape this. The account serves a purpose and the purpose is more important than the details. The details may take on a contextual form but are ultimately there to support the goal not the contextual form they put on. Once we find the purpose we need to ask ourselves if a non-literal account can still accomplish the goal of the account? If it can, then it doesn't matter if it's literal/factual (or not) and it means the repercussions of a literal/factual or non-literal account also don't matter so we can use our engery better, for example the study of the redemptive story the account shows us and how it points to Christ for me is far more impactful.Here's a groovy video I found that talks about Noah's Ark, which happens to be my minor forté.
So I though I'd post it and then pick it apart over time; but not necessarily in chronological order.
The first thing I would like to point out is that Noah's Ark is not a boat, it is an ark.
A containment vessel.
Calling it a boat or a ship shows a disrespect for its true identity.
More later.
Ancient accounts from a prehistory of a people group are going to be highly goal driven and certainly the Hebrews don't escape this.
The account serves a purpose and the purpose is more important than the details.
The details may take on a contextual form but are ultimately there to support the goal not the contextual form they put on.
Once we find the purpose we need to ask ourselves if a non-literal account can still accomplish the goal of the account?
If it can, then it doesn't matter if it's literal/factual (or not) and it means the repercussions of a literal/factual or non-literal account also don't matter so we can use our energy better, for example the study of the redemptive story the account shows us and how it points to Christ for me is far more impactful.
The Hebrews didn't write about the Flood.
Noah did.
That account got Noah into the Hall of Faith Chapter in Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
If Noah lied about the account, then it wouldn't have been recorded in the New Testament as factual.
The Flood story is both.
It is factual as well as exemplary.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
The purpose of the Flood is well documented.
You don't have to go looking for it.
The story has both an A and B side.
A is literal; B is exemplary.
If you want to dwell on the B side, help yourself.
But don't deny the A side.
The A side means a lot to me; the B side means a lot to you.
In doing so, it's almost as if you're telling me your faith is in jeopardy if you find out the Flood story was literal.
That sounds weird to me.
Why would anyone base their faith on a story in the Bible being made up?
But with the flood, It really doesn't matter either way and I'm happy with a flood and happy without it because in both cases it still points to Jesus as my redeemer and that is far more important.
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