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Noah's Ark

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Assyrian

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If parts of the Bible are just a collection of embellished oral histories and stories, then does that affect how you view the book as a whole? If Noah's Ark was just an oral history, then why is it included in the Bible the way it is and says that he whole world was flooded? Wouldn't this make the Bible blatantly false in this respect?
Worth pointing out the bible doesn't say the whole world was flooded, it is the common traditional interpretation, but not what the bible actually says. Check out the actual words and phrases used and see how they are used elsewhere in the bible. The word traditionally translated 'the earth' in our bible is ha'erets but that usually means a region or a land.

You can see this in the KJV's translation of the plague of locusts Exodus 10:15 For they covered the face of the whole earth... The whole planet covered in locusts? No just Egypt. ...so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt. Modern translations put it: They covered the face of the whole land ESV.
 
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alexwylde

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One of the tell-tale words I see again and again in this type of objection is "just". It indicates that in your frame of reference a "collection of embellished oral histories and stories" is somehow inferior to your ideal of what scripture ought to be and therefore an unworthy vehicle of divinely inspired teaching.

What interests me is what that ideal is and why it is seen as being superior to an embellished collection of oral histories and stories.

What reason would exclude an oral history of Noah's Ark from the Bible? On what basis would this be judged "blatantly false"?

I can think of no reason other than a modernistic turn of thought which gives privilege to scientific empiricism as the supreme guarantor of truth.


But if the principal message of scripture is theological, not scientific, and its message was revealed in a pre-scientific age to people who had a different way of imaging truth, why should the non-science of a global flood reflect at all on the theological truth of the flood story?

It is still a powerful and true story of wickedness, judgment and redemption.

I was simply playing devil's advocate. I don't think take the modern, conservative viewpoint that a lot of Christians today do. I do think that the Noah story is allegory, but I would like to be a little more firm in my own understanding. Thanks though.
 
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gluadys

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I was simply playing devil's advocate. I don't think take the modern, conservative viewpoint that a lot of Christians today do. I do think that the Noah story is allegory, but I would like to be a little more firm in my own understanding. Thanks though.

OK.

To be a bit picky, the flood story is myth, not allegory i.e. it was not intentionally written as an allegory with explicit symbolism.

However, in the NT it is interpreted allegorically as a symbol of baptism.
 
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Jadis40

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the major geological features of earth are mostly the result of the flood. not only is it not allegory its right in front of us.

Not really. Geologists who work out in the field can tell you how certain features were formed. A flood had nothing to do with the vast majority of them. That's not to say that water didn't play a role in some of them.

Also, Assyrian made an excellent point in post #21. "Whole earth" doesn't necessarily mean "global".
 
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JesusThree16

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Not really. Geologists who work out in the field can tell you how certain features were formed. A flood had nothing to do with the vast majority of them. That's not to say that water didn't play a role in some of them.

Also, Assyrian made an excellent point in post #21. "Whole earth" doesn't necessarily mean "global".
the grand canyon and fossils on mountaintops. Ive seen the geological establishment and how they work. they use flawed assumptions and use flawed techniques like radiometric dating. helium release from granite is much more reliable.
 
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Jadis40

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the grand canyon and fossils on mountaintops. Ive seen the geological establishment and how they work. they use flawed assumptions and use flawed techniques like radiometric dating. helium release from granite is much more reliable.

Consulting Answers in Genesis? I consider them to be anything BUT a reliable and trust-worthy source. The Grand Canyon is in fact a major problem for those who think the Grand Canyon was the result of a flood. For one, The Coconino Sandstone was clearly formed by wind, as evidenced by the cross-bedding. That's not going to happen in water. I quote from an official site:

http://3dparks.wr.usgs.gov/coloradoplateau/lexicon/coconino.htm

Tan to white, cliff-forming, fine-grained, wellsorted, cross-bedded quartz sandstone. Contains large-scale, high-angle, planar cross-bedded sandstone sets that average about 35 ft (11 m) thick. Locally includes poorly preserved fossil tracks and low-relief wind ripple marks on crossbedded planar sandstone surfaces.

The Toroweap has the same features. It's basically preserved sand dunes.

Also, the Kaibab Limestone presents another problem. Limestone only forms in calm shallow seas. Limestone itself is the remains of small marine creatures that have died. In the walls of the Grand Canyon, you have three layers of Limestone that are specifically named as such: the Kaibab Limestone that is the uppermost one, and therefore the youngest. Below that is the Redwall Limestone, part of the Mississippian layer, and below that, and the oldest of the three, the Muav Limestone, which is part of The Tonto group which formed during the Cambrian era.

If anything, that right there is proof that the Grand Canyon was NOT formed as the result of a flood. It's ironic really, my study of the Grand Canyon was the very thing that convinced me that a global flood never happened.

And to the point about radiometric dating, it's pretty reliable. Otherwise, how is it that they consistently get results using various methods? An excellent source on radiometric dating is this:

http://www.asa3.org/aSA/resources/Wiens.html

Now, as far as Carbon-14 dating, that's only good for the past 60,000 years or so. Now, let me ask you a question: if carbon-14 is invalid when "secular" scientists use it to determine the date of an artifact when it predates the timescale of history held to by YECs, (meaning a flood within the past 6,000 years) then why do YECs turn around and say it validates their findings?
 
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Mallon

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the grand canyon and fossils on mountaintops. Ive seen the geological establishment and how they work. they use flawed assumptions and use flawed techniques like radiometric dating. helium release from granite is much more reliable.
1) The Grand Canyon cannot have been carved by a single flood event. There are many reasons for saying so, but the strongest evidence that comes to my mind is the presence of mammillary coatings on the walls of the Grand Canyon at different stratigraphic levels. Mammillary coatings precipitate over time as the water table drops. This is not something you would expect to see in a single flood event.
More here:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/319/5868/1377
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH581.html
2) Fossils aren't just found on mountain tops. They're found IN mountain tops. In the rock. This is not evidence that a worldwide flood deposited fossils on the tops of mountains. This is evidence that the mountains uplifted after the fossils were formed.

So no, there is no evidence whatsoever of a global flood at any point in Earth's history.
 
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WorshipBassist

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I think, regardless of the myth/history aspect, Our Lord was saying the flood caught everyone but Noah by surprise, and the second coming will take everyone but those who are prepared by surprise.

Pretty standard Christian thinking, in other words, comparable to the wise and foolish virgins, and a thousand other similar metaphors.


This is pretty much my interpretation of the Noah story.
 
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shernren

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I think something that many conservative interpretations of the Flood will miss out on is that to the ANE writers and readers Earth was all they had. To put it pithily, they didn't have "Earth first - we'll stripmine the other planets later" bumper stickers. The global vs. local flood debate is often framed (unconsciously) by the Copernican worldview that the Earth is just one small tiny dot lost in a wash of stars and empty space, and that the important issue at hand is whether that tiny dot was all pale blue or only half so.

To the ANE though, the destruction written of in Genesis 6-8 was not just global, it was universal, cosmic even. Every locale in nature plays its part: the firmament gushes forth, the floodgates of the deep open, and the earth in the middle becomes thoroughly deluged. The creations of day 2, when the firmament was appointed to hold up waters above the sky, and day 3, when the sea (and by implication the deep) was constrained from flooding the land, have been undone. No human flood we see today poses such an affront to us because, even were we to see a global flood, we would think of it as just one watery planet among many. To the ANE however the flood was nothing less than God, angry at sin, threatening to "destroy the universe". (Finally that stock phrase has a use worthy of its magnitude!)

Was struck by these thoughts after having read T.F. Torrance's Divine Order and Contingence (a fantastic book, if a little dense). He says that the creation depends contingently (a sort of "independent dependence") on God. Namely, that creation has no "right" per se to exist, that it is held up completely and totally at all times and places by God's affirming decree, and that were God to rescind this favor at any time creation would simply collapse in back on itself into nothingness. Thus it depends on God. However, the very nature of God's affirming decree is that God has made the universe such that it possesses a rationality and reality all its own. It is really something existing separate from God with rules and reasons that it plays out with its own integrity. Thus it is independent from God - although that very independence is really part of God's creative decree on which its very existence is dependent in the first place. Thus contingence (or in everyday parlance, the fact that science can determine and predict the limiting workings of the universe without directly postulating the hand of God) has both a direction oriented towards God and a direction oriented away from God.

Sin, to Torrance, unhinges the direction of contingence that points away from God. It encourages us to see the universe purely as something that has its own rationality and its own existence, not as something dependent on God. And the Flood is a direct and fitting punishment for such designs. The processes operating in the Flood are natural, though exaggerated. Of course they are decreed by God (all things in creation are, both "natural" and not), but within the limits of God's decree it is seen that the Flood is just rain writ large, just the sea a few miles higher. When man overturns God's moral decrees, God allows His own physical decrees to be overturned for a while. When man tries to morally live without God, God gives creation a test to see if it can even physically exist without His creative, separative decrees of order.

Clearly it cannot, as creation threatens to collapse right back into the deep nothingness it was in Genesis 1:2. Natural forces gone wild punish and destroy humanity gone wild. And when God reinstates order and sets His rainbow in the sky, it isn't just a promise about ocean height. It is a promise to keep the very fabric of reality intact, even though humanity is hell-bent on turning the independence of contingency against God. It is a promise to keep the stars in their tracks as much as to keep the Earth dry; it is a promise not just for terrestrial beings but for all creation.
 
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Chesterton

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However, the very nature of God's affirming decree is that God has made the universe such that it possesses a rationality and reality all its own.

What is "God's affirming decree", and where is it found?
 
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Assyrian

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Where it is found is Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. As for what the word is, I know certain arcane arts have claimed to know what the word is,* but God's not going to tell us is he? Might as well give lab rats the security code to run the lab.




*look up abracadabra
 
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Chesterton

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I think I understand what you mean with that verse, but I think I’m asking something else.

Often when thinking of the kinds of topics in the Origins and apologetics forums, I come back to the idea of “contingency” that shernren was discussing. What I was wondering about specifically is this: is Torrance or shernren saying that the universe “possesses a rationality and reality all its own”, or that it doesn’t. He seemed to say that the nature of the “affirming decree” allowed for both at the same time. Then next, he says the universe being independent is an error or illusion caused by sin. I’m confused.
 
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shernren

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Sorry about that. Contingency has two "faces": a face towards God (in the sense that the universe depends on God) and a face away from God (in the sense that the universe has a consistent rationality of its own). Both these tendencies are necessary to understand nature, both as something that is itself and as something that points to God.

What sin does (in Torrance's view at least) is to wrench the two halves of contingence apart, to take the face of contingence that looks away from God and emphasize it to the exclusion of the face that looks towards God. Thus, sin's error is not that the universe is independent, but rather that the universe is solely independent.

Perhaps we can demonstrate using the command of Genesis 1:3:

God said, Let there be light.
And there was light.
And God saw that it was good.


In earlier days - in the time and thought of Aristotle, when it was thought that the universe could be discerned using human thought alone, and thus that the universe was not real enough to merit empirical study, this became:

God said, Let there be light.
And God was light.
And God saw that it was good.


Nowadays our pendulum has swung to the other extreme:

The universe said, Let there be light.
And there was light.
And the universe saw that it was good.


Where it falls apart of course is that the universe itself must be created, the universe has no authority to say anything about itself or assess anything for itself. The radical independence that sin entails and works towards can only be self-destructive in the end, just as in the Flood man's wickedness causes God to rip apart the very scaffolding of the heavens.
 
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