morning dale,
You responded to my post:
The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia finds from the Hebrew language and other indications that Noah's Ark was most likely a box.
I rather imagine that in the end we'll find that much of what the Catholic organization believes about the things of God is wrong. But, I'm not denying that the ark was fairly boxy in design. I'm merely pointing out, as you seem to agree, that we can't prove it from the text of the Scriptures. I'm also pointing out that because the ark doesn't seem to have been designed to 'go' anywhere, but merely hold safe that which God had chosen to save from the destruction of the flood, that the designs that we think are necessary for a ship that is designed to ferry cargo from one particular place to another wouldn't necessarily apply. I think it was in one of your posts earlier that you mention it was more like a barge. I agree with that. Just like a barge today, it won't go anywhere other than to just float around on the water, without a pushing engine attached.
I don't know why you would think that I am changing the subject, but be that as it may. You wrote:
You are starting from the assumption that the first few chapters of Genesis are literal history. Moreover, you seem to assume that creationist views were not questioned until perhaps the end of the 19th century. In short, you assume that non-creationist thinking has only been around for about 10% of the history of Christianity. However, this isn't true at all.
Yes, I readily admit, and agree that it should be quite obvious in my posts that I am starting from the position that the first chapters of Genesis are to be taken at face value. As far as when creationist views began to be questioned? One could go clear back to the ancient Egyptians and see that creationism as discussed in the Scriptures, has been in question since at least then. They had different gods and different beliefs as to how things came to exist. I again, readily admit that creationism, as described in the Scriptures, has been in question for several millennia. However, I also believe, according to the words of Jesus, that a whole lot of people are going to get it wrong. All this understanding of who God is and all that He has done. I don't understand on what evidence of any of my writing that you can conclude to yourself that I have assumed that non-creationist thinking has only been around for 10% of the history of Christianity. I rather think that it's your assumptions of what I believe that isn't true at all.
This seems to me to be some general argument that you use in all such discussions, but I don't think you'll find in any of my responses any evidence to support what you're using as your general argument. That arguments against creationism are fairly new and that non-creationist thinking has only been around for about 10% of christian history. I do, however, agree that it has become a more divisive issue within the body of the 'church' than it likely was in much earlier generations.
You then wrote:
Most Christian theology derives from Aurelius Augustine (354-386 AD). Before Augustine, Christian theology was not systematized, with the possible exception of Origen. So what did Augustine make of the six days of creation? I did a thread that looked at this not that long ago.
I honestly have no idea where a lot of christian theology finds it source outside of the Scriptures. I'm not really much concerned with what Augustine believed regarding the creation event. My concern is with what the Scriptures say about the creation event. Again I say to you that Jesus makes a clear point that not everyone who says to him 'Lord, Lord' will be saved. On the day of his Father's judgment we could well see Augustine out there in that crowd crying, 'but I did all those great deeds in your name'. I don't know. But again, I'm much more interested in what the Scriptures say. God at least twice in the Scriptures seems to have clearly accounted the creation event as encompassing six days and we have at least two genealogical accounts from Adam forward. When God repeats something, I tend to think it must be important to Him that we understand whatever it is that He's repeating for our benefit.
I freely allow that each man will believe what he has purposed in his heart is the truth, and I'll tell you that in my heart, what I'm explaining is what I believe is the truth. I have purposed it in my heart.
If you'd like to move to discussing what you believe Augustine believed, we can do that, but I'd have to catch up. I've never really studied Augustine. Be advised though, that one of the reasons an effort was taken to gather what most people of the day believed to be the 'true' Scriptures and then closing them, was to make some attempt to prevent spurious writings from being included. The Catholic organization does generally take credit for this, and if that is true, I'd say that in that, they did a good thing.
Anyway, I think I've made clear my position. You obviously don't agree. That's ok with me. As I grow in my faith, I find that I'm often at odds with what some 'christians' think or believe. I was attending evening services last night and the pastor asked of those attending what Joshua would have meant in telling the Israelites before they crossed over the Jordan to 'consecrate' themselves. One man said that he was telling them to put on clean clothes. Needless to say, I wasn't much in agreement with that answer.
However, let me again point out, and I know this is becoming something of a mantra as others may see me continually refer to it, that it seems quite clear to me that when Jesus spoke to his disciples about the day of his Father's judgment, the 'many' who would come to him were people who we held up as christians when they lived upon the earth. Jesus says that they would be claiming to him to have done great deeds in his name. I can't imagine that any such people didn't call themselves christians while living among us, yet Jesus turns them away. He doesn't refer to them as being 'few' but 'many'. What he speaks of as being 'few' are those who find the truth and follow it. So, perhaps when you make claims based on that you believe that 'many' christians believe, you might want to just take a few moments and check yourself. It would be a sad thing to have given all of this effort while living on the earth to espouse a teaching and truth that you believed to be the truth that God wants you to believe, only to find out in the end, that it wasn't. Yes, I agree, that I too, must look into those things that I believe because I don't want to find myself in that crowd of christians either. I rather want to be found with the few whose faith was that of Abraham. Abraham was made righteous in God's sight because he believed God, not Augustine.
God bless you,
In Christ, ted