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Noahide laws

liftmeup

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Hi there!

I figure some of you in the Messianic community may have a background in talmudic traditions. I have some questions regarding the '7 laws of Noah'.

I ask because I see a movement to introduce this doctrine in the US government and in the International Criminal Court, proposed by the UN. Of course it concerns me because according to the proponents of this doctrine, Christians must die as idolaters.

Does anyone know what validity the '7 laws of Noah' have for ordinary Jews?

Why would it be claimed that they are somehow superior to the 10 Commandments given to Moses later on?

Does anyone believe that this is connected to militant Zionism?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.
Shalom
 

jehoiakim

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They are pretty well accepted. They are not superior to the 10 commandments but they are extrapolated from the commandments God gave Noah and all his descendants including the Gentiles. The 10 commandments are part of the Sinai covenant that Israel entered into with God not the Gentiles so the Gentiles are considered not to be under them since they did not enter the covenant. While I don't like or trust the UNIT I have never really heard a Jew proclaim a gentile guilty or innocent of the noahide laws specifically the no false God one and it has been my experience that they are not concerned with Gentiles or what they do so long as it is not infringing on them. As for militant Zionests I avoid them so it is hard for me to know where they are at but certainly there are some orthodox especially in Israel who harass the messianic community on a regular basis.
 
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Yahudim

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Hi there!

I figure some of you in the Messianic community may have a background in talmudic traditions. I have some questions regarding the '7 laws of Noah'.

I ask because I see a movement to introduce this doctrine in the US government and in the International Criminal Court, proposed by the UN. Of course it concerns me because according to the proponents of this doctrine, Christians must die as idolaters.

Does anyone know what validity the '7 laws of Noah' have for ordinary Jews?

Why would it be claimed that they are somehow superior to the 10 Commandments given to Moses later on?

Does anyone believe that this is connected to militant Zionism?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.
Shalom
Noahide laws? What are they? :D
 
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ContraMundum

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Hi there!

I figure some of you in the Messianic community may have a background in talmudic traditions. I have some questions regarding the '7 laws of Noah'.

I ask because I see a movement to introduce this doctrine in the US government and in the International Criminal Court, proposed by the UN. Of course it concerns me because according to the proponents of this doctrine, Christians must die as idolaters.

Does anyone know what validity the '7 laws of Noah' have for ordinary Jews?

Why would it be claimed that they are somehow superior to the 10 Commandments given to Moses later on?

Does anyone believe that this is connected to militant Zionism?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.
Shalom

There's a Jewish expression that says "some things are laws because they are written, and some are written because they are laws". I paraphrase, but you get the gist.

The Noachide Laws are bascially 7 laws given to Noah which are basically for all the sons of Noah- everybody. They are based on the Talmudic interpretation of the law given to Adam (Gen 2) and the laws given to Noah (Gen 9) Essentially they comprise of universal moral laws which when extrapolated and lived out form an extensive pattern for living for all humanity. The later laws of the Bible add additional laws for the Jewish nation but never contradict the laws given to Noah. Some Jewish sources interpret the Acts 15 Council and Paul's missionary endeavors to be based around the spreading of the Noachide Laws.

So, IOW, the 7 Noachide Laws are eternal laws from God for all humanity. They've been written down because of their eternal and universal nature.

OK, so to answer your specifics-

No, this is not a Zionist plot. They are laws which seem to fit most religious systems. A summary of sorts.

No, they are not superior to the 10 Commandments. The 10 contain them but elaborate a little more, and also Jews do not believe that keeping the Sabbath is for all mankind, so to the Jewish mind the 7 are specific for the world but the 10 summarize the Law for the Jews. (Kinda. Really, the Jews have a lot more than that, but that's another topic.) Complicated enough? :)

Yes, the 7 Noachide laws will apply to the Jews too, as also being Sons of Noah. The Jews just get even more from Sinai.

Anyway, hope that gets you on your way to figuring it out a little more. What I say above is just "off the cuff", so if I missed something I apologize.
 
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pat34lee

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There's a Jewish expression that says "some things are laws because they are written, and some are written because they are laws". I paraphrase, but you get the gist.

The Noachide Laws are bascially 7 laws given to Noah which are basically for all the sons of Noah- everybody. They are based on the Talmudic interpretation of the law given to Adam (Gen 2) and the laws given to Noah (Gen 9) Essentially they comprise of universal moral laws which when extrapolated and lived out form an extensive pattern for living for all humanity. The later laws of the Bible add additional laws for the Jewish nation but never contradict the laws given to Noah. Some Jewish sources interpret the Acts 15 Council and Paul's missionary endeavors to be based around the spreading of the Noachide Laws.

So, IOW, the 7 Noachide Laws are eternal laws from God for all humanity. They've been written down because of their eternal and universal nature.

OK, so to answer your specifics-

No, this is not a Zionist plot. They are laws which seem to fit most religious systems. A summary of sorts.

No, they are not superior to the 10 Commandments. The 10 contain them but elaborate a little more, and also Jews do not believe that keeping the Sabbath is for all mankind, so to the Jewish mind the 7 are specific for the world but the 10 summarize the Law for the Jews. (Kinda. Really, the Jews have a lot more than that, but that's another topic.) Complicated enough? :)

Yes, the 7 Noachide laws will apply to the Jews too, as also being Sons of Noah. The Jews just get even more from Sinai.

Anyway, hope that gets you on your way to figuring it out a little more. What I say above is just "off the cuff", so if I missed something I apologize.

Only one thing missing that I see. The 7 Noahide laws are not spelled out in Torah. They are interpretations of the laws found in the talmud.
 
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Mazock

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Hi there!

I figure some of you in the Messianic community may have a background in talmudic traditions. I have some questions regarding the '7 laws of Noah'.

I ask because I see a movement to introduce this doctrine in the US government and in the International Criminal Court, proposed by the UN. Of course it concerns me because according to the proponents of this doctrine, Christians must die as idolaters.

Does anyone know what validity the '7 laws of Noah' have for ordinary Jews?

Why would it be claimed that they are somehow superior to the 10 Commandments given to Moses later on?

Does anyone believe that this is connected to militant Zionism?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.
Shalom

What is this movement at the UN?

I've never heard about it, and I'm sure it would make the news if its advocating the death penalty for Christians.
 
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Qnts2

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What is this movement at the UN?

I've never heard about it, and I'm sure it would make the news if its advocating the death penalty for Christians.

The seven Noachide laws from the Talmud abbreviated:

1. Not to deny God.
2. Not to blaspheme God.
3. Not to murder.
4. Not to engage in sexual immorality
5. Not to steal.
6. Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal.
7. To set up courts of law.

As Contramundum noted, these are taken from the laws given to Noah and Adam.

There is no death penalty attached to these. In Jewish thought, a Gentile who obeys these commands is a 'righteous Gentile'.

Lubavitch/Chabad is a ultra-Orthodox sect of Judaism, whose leader was Rebbe Schneerson (who has passed away). Rebbe Schneerson was seeking to get the Jewish people to lay Teffillin and become more observant. In his thought, an obedient Jewish people would cause the Messiah to come. After many years of this effort, the Messiah had not yet come and Rebbe Schneerson came to the conclusion that obedience to God included the Gentiles, so he came up with the Noachide compaign, to get more Gentiles obedient to the 7 laws of Noah.

One of the efforts included appealing to the U.S. congress to pass a statement supporting the 7 laws of Noah, which was done. Not as laws but as a statement honoring Rebbe Schneerson for his humanitarian work and encouraging the morality exemplified by the 7 laws of Noah.

I had not heard that this effort moved to the U.N. but if it is anything similar to the statement made by the U.S., it is just a recognition of moral laws for all people.

As a side note, the Noachide movement is made up of Gentiles who have committed to the Noachide laws. These Gentiles learn from Rabbis. Rebbe Schneerson wrote a statement saying the Noachides should be discouraged from worshipping Jesus. I consider the group cultic and evangelistic to recruit more Gentile members.

Within the group, many Gentiles who have renounced Jesus, are dissatisfied with the Noachide status and often end up converting to Judaism. One stipulation in regards to conversion is that a married Gentile must have agreement with their spouse to both convert to Judaism, so some are not allowed to convert because their spouses disagree.

While simply making a statement to follow these moral laws is not bad, and nothing to worry about, I do see the actual Noachide movement as harmful as it works to get Gentiles to renounce Jesus. This is one of the reasons I suggest that Gentile believers be extremely cautious in accepting a Jewish Rabbi as a teacher. Most Jewish Rabbis will not take on Gentiles students and those who do, are likely encouraging the Noachide movement and will likely speak against belief in Jesus once the Gentile is commited, plus they might encourage committed Gentiles to take on the task to keep Jewish people from believing on Jesus/Yeshua.
 
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mishkan

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Outstanding review. Love the conclusion--the commandments are fine, but the movement is harmful, overall.


The seven Noachide laws from the Talmud abbreviated:

1. Not to deny God.
2. Not to blaspheme God.
3. Not to murder.
4. Not to engage in sexual immorality
5. Not to steal.
6. Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal.
7. To set up courts of law.

As Contramundum noted, these are taken from the laws given to Noah and Adam.

There is no death penalty attached to these. In Jewish thought, a Gentile who obeys these commands is a 'righteous Gentile'.

Lubavitch/Chabad is a ultra-Orthodox sect of Judaism, whose leader was Rebbe Schneerson (who has passed away). Rebbe Schneerson was seeking to get the Jewish people to lay Teffillin and become more observant. In his thought, an obedient Jewish people would cause the Messiah to come. After many years of this effort, the Messiah had not yet come and Rebbe Schneerson came to the conclusion that obedience to God included the Gentiles, so he came up with the Noachide compaign, to get more Gentiles obedient to the 7 laws of Noah.

One of the efforts included appealing to the U.S. congress to pass a statement supporting the 7 laws of Noah, which was done. Not as laws but as a statement honoring Rebbe Schneerson for his humanitarian work and encouraging the morality exemplified by the 7 laws of Noah.

I had not heard that this effort moved to the U.N. but if it is anything similar to the statement made by the U.S., it is just a recognition of moral laws for all people.

As a side note, the Noachide movement is made up of Gentiles who have committed to the Noachide laws. These Gentiles learn from Rabbis. Rebbe Schneerson wrote a statement saying the Noachides should be discouraged from worshipping Jesus. I consider the group cultic and evangelistic to recruit more Gentile members.

Within the group, many Gentiles who have renounced Jesus, are dissatisfied with the Noachide status and often end up converting to Judaism. One stipulation in regards to conversion is that a married Gentile must have agreement with their spouse to both convert to Judaism, so some are not allowed to convert because their spouses disagree.

While simply making a statement to follow these moral laws is not bad, and nothing to worry about, I do see the actual Noachide movement as harmful as it works to get Gentiles to renounce Jesus. This is one of the reasons I suggest that Gentile believers be extremely cautious in accepting a Jewish Rabbi as a teacher. Most Jewish Rabbis will not take on Gentiles students and those who do, are likely encouraging the Noachide movement and will likely speak against belief in Jesus once the Gentile is commited, plus they might encourage committed Gentiles to take on the task to keep Jewish people from believing on Jesus/Yeshua.
 
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liftmeup

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Many thanks for your thoughts and insights.

The websites which I have reviewed and concern me are the following:

www.keep7.org
(here you can see George W accepting Noahide law, and moves to implement Noahide law at a proposed International Criminal Court)

United Noachide Council, Inc. - English WikiNoah
(The statements to establish branches in all countries, and the definition of Christians as idolaters, furthermore, the statement that it is the duty of the UNC to enforce Noahide law on the gentiles)

Sanhedrin Launched In Tiberias - Jewish World - News - Israel National News
(here, the news that a new Sanhedrin court has been established at Tiberias)

Another review by a concerned citizen


The other dilemma the noahide laws present me is this: they echo the 10 Commandments of Moses, except for the exclusion of: loving God, loving one's neighbour, not bearing false witness, observing the sabbath.

What they demand apart from the 10 Commandments is: the establishment of courts, to enforce Noahide laws and not eating living creatures' flesh.

How can the Noahide laws be superior to the 10 Commandments? How can it be justified that the Christian observer of the 10 Commandments is therefore deficient?
 
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Lulav

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Yes, very harmful and I'm not surprised that the UN is taking it on, which will allow them to use it with Muslim backing, accusing all of idol worship. As far as it being on the books in the US, it clearly violates the first amendment. So for now they cannot be used unless martial law is established and I'm sure we aren't far off from seeing that.

This however is an outright lie.

There is no death penalty attached to these. In Jewish thought, a Gentile who obeys these commands is a 'righteous Gentile'.
And one who doesn't obey them ? violation of any one of the seven laws subjects the Noahide to capital punishment by decapitation." Encyclopedia Judaica p.1192

And I understand it is by the word of one witness only.

The following is a summary of the Seven Noahide Laws. (Institute of Judaic-Christian Researcher, Jan. 1992; The Talmud, Sanh. 56a-59b; Yad Melakhim 8:10, 9, 10)
1). Thou shalt not engage in idol worship.
2). Thou shalt not blaspheme God.
3). Thou shalt not shed innocent blood of any human nor fetus nor ailing person who has a limited time to live.
4). Thou shalt not engage in bestial, incestuous, adulterous or homosexual relations nor commit the act of rape.
5). Thou shalt not steal.
6). Thou shalt ESTABLISH LAWS AND COURTS OF LAW TO ADMINISTER [enforce] THESE LAWS, INCLUDING THE DEATH PENALTY.
7). Thou shalt not be cruel to animals.
 
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Qnts2

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Just for reference, the following is a link to the joint house resolution 173.

Congressional Record - 101st Congress (1989-1990) - THOMAS (Library of Congress):


EDUCATION DAY, U.S.A. (House of Representatives - April 05, 1989)

[Page: H947]
Mr. SAWYER. Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous consent that the Committee on Post Office and Civil Service be discharged from further consideration of the joint resolution (H.J. Res. 173) to designate April 16, 1989, as `Education Day, U.S.A.,' and ask for its immediate consideration.
The Clerk read the title of the joint resolution.
The SPEAKER pro tempore. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from Ohio?
Mr. RIDGE. Reserving the right to object, Mr. Speaker, and I certainly do not, I would simply like to inform my colleagues in the House that the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Michel], our leader, is the chief sponsor of House Joint Resolution 173 and is unable to be on the floor.
  • Mr. MICHEL. Mr. Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to say a few words about House Joint Resolution 173, requesting the President to designate April 16, 1989, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'
  • Along with the distinguished majority leader, Tom Foley, I am sponsoring this resolution. We joined forces last year and I am happy to be part of this worthy venture today.
  • As I said last year, I think it is fitting that the majority and the minority leaders should cosponsor such a resolution. It deals with a subject that transcends partisan consideration.
  • We are seeing a rebirth of the old American idea of progress through education for all Americans. That is still a great idea.
  • April 16 also happens to be the 87th birthday of a remarkable religious leader, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson.
  • He is the internationally renowned and respected leader of the Lubavitch movement which actively promotes education programs at more than 150 centers in the United States.
  • The Lubavitch movement, founded in the 18th century, has as its philosophical foundation three basic elements: wisdom, understanding, and knowledge.
  • It is, therefore, appropriate that the movement, under the inspired leader of the man called the rebbe, has been so active in promoting education.
  • Looking over my remarks from last year, I came upon a fact I want to share with you today.
  • The movement which the rebbe heads takes its name from the Russian city, Lubavitch, which translated into English means, city of love.
  • In the final analysis it is love of one's religious heritage, love of learning--that is at the heart of the Lubavitch movement and at the heart of our resolution.
  • I am pleased once again to honor a great man and to support such a fine idea.
Mr. RIDGE. Mr. Speaker, I withdraw my reservation of objection.
The SPEAKER pro tempore. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from Ohio?
There was no objection.
The Clerk read the joint resolution, as follows:
H.J. Res. 173


Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded;
Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the seven Noahide Laws;
Whereas without these ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos;
Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in crisis that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society;
Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crisis must not let the citizens of this National lose sight of thier responsibility to transmit these historical ethical values from our distinguished past to the generations of the future;
Whereas the Lubavitch movement through its over one hundred and fifty centers in the United States and many more the world over has fostered and promoted these ethical values and principles throughout the world;
Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-seventh year will be seen as the year of continued `turn and return', the year in which we continue to turn to an education which will return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws;
Whereas, this year of 1989 (5749 on the Hebrew calendar) is the `40th anniversary' in which the Rebbe completes the fourth decade since his ascension to the world leadership of the Lubavitch movement and spiritual guidance of world Jewry; and
Whereas this has been reflected in the `international scroll of honor' which has been signed by the President of the United States and other heads of state: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That April 16, 1989, the eighty-seventh birthday of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader and head of the worldwide Lubavitch movement, is designated as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. The President is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the people of the United States to observe such day with appropriate ceremonies and activities. We also call on heads of state of the world to join our President in this tribute by signing similar scrolls of honor which will be presented in their respective countries this year of the `40th Anniversary'. On this occasion we would also welcome the cooperation of the Department of State in extending the good office of the United States missions to the Lubavitcher emissaries.
[Page: H948]
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. SAWYER


Mr. SAWYER. Mr. Speaker, I offer an amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. Sawyer: Page 2, line 5, strike `is' and insert `and April 6, 1990, are each'.
Page 2, line 7, insert `each' after `observe'.
The SPEAKER pro tempore. The question is on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. Sawyer].
The amendment was agreed to.
The joint resolution was ordered to be engrossed and read a third time, was read the third time, and passed.
TITLE AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. SAWYER


Mr. SAWYER. Mr. Speaker, I offer an amendment to the title.
The Clerk read as follows:
Title amendment offered by Mr. Sawyer: Amend the title so as to read: `Joint resolution to designate April 16, 1989, and April 6, 1990, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'.'
The title amendment was agreed to. A motion to reconsider was laid on the table.
 
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Qnts2

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The second part of what was acted upon in the U.S.

George Bush: Proclamation 5956 - Education Day, U.S.A., 1989 and 1990




Proclamation 5956 - Education Day, U.S.A., 1989 and 1990
April 14, 1989
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By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation
Ethical values are the foundation for civilized society. A society that fails to recognize or adhere to them cannot endure.
The principles of moral and ethical conduct that have formed the basis for all civilizations come to us, in part, from the centuries-old Seven Noahide Laws. The Noahide Laws are actually seven commandments given to man by God, as recorded in the Old Testament. These commandments include prohibitions against murder, robbery, adultery, blasphemy, and greed, as well as the positive order to establish courts of justice.
Through the leadership of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson and the worldwide Lubavitch movement, the Noahide Law -- and standards of conduct duly derived from them -- have been promulgated around the globe.
It is fitting that we honor Rabbi Schneerson and acknowledge his important contributions to society. Our great Nation takes just pride in its dedication to the principles of justice, equality, and truth. Americans also understand that we have a responsibility to inspire the same dedication in future generations. We owe a tremendous debt to Rabbi Schneerson and to all those who promote education that embraces moral and ethical values and emphasizes their importance.
In recognition of Rabbi Schneerson's vital efforts, and in celebration of his 87th birthday, the Congress, by House Joint Resolution 173, has designated April 16, 1989, and April 6, 1990, as "Education Day, U.S.A." and has authorized and requested the President to issue an appropriate proclamation in observance of these days. Now, Therefore, I, George Bush, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim April 16, 1989, and April 6, 1990, as Education Day, U.S.A. I invite Governors from every State and Territory, community leaders, teachers, and all Americans to observe these days through appropriate events and activities. In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand this fourteenth day of April, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-nine, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two
 
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visionary

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There's a Jewish expression that says "some things are laws because they are written, and some are written because they are laws". I paraphrase, but you get the gist.

The Noachide Laws are bascially 7 laws given to Noah which are basically for all the sons of Noah- everybody. They are based on the Talmudic interpretation of the law given to Adam (Gen 2) and the laws given to Noah (Gen 9) Essentially they comprise of universal moral laws which when extrapolated and lived out form an extensive pattern for living for all humanity. The later laws of the Bible add additional laws for the Jewish nation but never contradict the laws given to Noah. Some Jewish sources interpret the Acts 15 Council and Paul's missionary endeavors to be based around the spreading of the Noachide Laws.

So, IOW, the 7 Noachide Laws are eternal laws from God for all humanity. They've been written down because of their eternal and universal nature.

OK, so to answer your specifics-

No, this is not a Zionist plot. They are laws which seem to fit most religious systems. A summary of sorts.

No, they are not superior to the 10 Commandments. The 10 contain them but elaborate a little more, and also Jews do not believe that keeping the Sabbath is for all mankind, so to the Jewish mind the 7 are specific for the world but the 10 summarize the Law for the Jews. (Kinda. Really, the Jews have a lot more than that, but that's another topic.) Complicated enough? :)

Yes, the 7 Noachide laws will apply to the Jews too, as also being Sons of Noah. The Jews just get even more from Sinai.

Anyway, hope that gets you on your way to figuring it out a little more. What I say above is just "off the cuff", so if I missed something I apologize.
This is a Jewish invention back in 1200 AD to handle the interested Gentiles in Judaism.
 
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yedida

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What is this movement at the UN?

I've never heard about it, and I'm sure it would make the news if its advocating the death penalty for Christians.


I sure haven't heard anything about the UN or a death penalty for christians, but I do know that B'nei Noach does require one to renounce one's old faith in Jesus/Yeshua.
 
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