Noah and nonYEC?

[ab1385]

I was wondering what exactly people think of Noah and the flood? I dont really need replies from YECs, as their view is fairly obioous, so please only reply if from another POV. Do you thin kit happened as a literal event? And when, how long ago?

I feel I cannot deny the science behind an old universe, so Im interested to know how people think I should take this bit of the bible.

I would like to categorically state that I do not want creationist stuff in here telling me how I must belive genesis literally to believe this or anything like that, I just want to know how evolutionists view this event.

Alex

 

[Bushido216]

Didn't happen.

 

[ab1385]

And so why does it say in the bible that it did?

 

[Bushido216]

Because it's purpose is to show people that God judges us individually, that even if everyone else in the world is a sinner, YOU will be saved.

 

[ab1385]

I still dont get the bit about the bothering to tell noah about all the exact dimensions of the ark, exaclty how many animals to take etc. It just seems to in-depth to be taken metaphorically, yet I can't see how it can ohysically have happened. Its becoming something of an issue in my mind...

 

[Bushido216]

The creation story gives several indepth accounts of how the world was created.

 

[Dad Ernie]

I was wondering what exactly people think of Noah and the flood? I dont really need replies from YECs, as their view is fairly obioous, so please only reply if from another POV. Do you thin kit happened as a literal event? And when, how long ago?

I feel I cannot deny the science behind an old universe, so Im interested to know how people think I should take this bit of the bible.

I would like to categorically state that I do not want creationist stuff in here telling me how I must belive genesis literally to believe this or anything like that, I just want to know how evolutionists view this event.

Joshua 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

Isaiah 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Matthew 24:37-39 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26-27 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

One of the problems in not taking the Noahic flood account as being literal is the fact you then make LIARS out of Joshua, Job, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Matthew, Luke, Paul and Peter.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Only if "lie" is the same thing as "non-literal"

I think this is begging the question - assuming that something must be literal to be true, to demonstrate that the Flood story is literal...

 

[lucaspa]

Joshua 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

Isaiah 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Matthew 24:37-39 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26-27 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

One of the problems in not taking the Noahic flood account as being literal is the fact you then make LIARS out of Joshua, Job, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Matthew, Luke, Paul and Peter.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I disagree. If you look at each of them, you are seeing that the writers are using the Flood story as a story everyone knew and then using elements of that to make other points, not say it happened. For instance, the quotes from Peter is showing what Bushido said: even tho everyone else is condemned, God will save one, because God saved Noah.


We do this all the time. For instance, my daughter refers to a tough-kick-*** woman as a "Buffy chick". Buffy is a fictional character and not real. However, that fictional story is so well known that she can use elements of the character to describe a real person.

Arnold Schwartzenegger has been referred to repeatedly as having a "Herculean" physique. Does this mean that Hercules was a real character?

Anyone can easily come up with a dozen other examples of movie events that people refer to when making other points. It doesn't make either the movie true or the speaker a liar.

Look at Isaiah "for this is as the waters of Noah unto me." It is a simile referring to a story that everyone knew. It's not saying the Flood was a world-wide event.

 

[lucaspa]

I was wondering what exactly people think of Noah and the flood? I dont really need replies from YECs, as their view is fairly obioous, so please only reply if from another POV. Do you thin kit happened as a literal event? And when, how long ago?

Alex, there is considerable evidence for a very severe local flood (or several of them) in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley that did wipe out several cities and the civilization of them. There is also an earlier Babylonian account of Marduk warning a man called Unt-napushtim of a coming flood and Unt-napushtim saves a bunch of livestock aboard a raft.

So, I think two things happened:
1. There was a terrible local flood that formed the basis of a legend of one man saving something from the flood. The legend grew into the story of Unt-napushtim of one man and his family saving the essentials to rebuild civilization.
2. The Hebrews, during the Babylonian captivity, appropriated this very popular story and reworked it for their own ends. The "details" get in there as any good storyteller adds such things to his narrative. What you end up with is the theological story that Bushido said.

BTW, are you aware that there are two Noah stories entwined in Genesis 6-8? They differ in the details. You can find them separated at http://www.religioustolerance.org/jepd_gen.htm#flood

 

[Dad Ernie]

You may want to visit this site:

OOPARTS
http://www.s8int.com/

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Aduro Amnis]

The question is, how big was the world for Humans?
As primitave cultures seem to do, they think that the Earth is flat and that its size is from edge to edge of sea or ocean, perhaps the world of Noah was only the Mediterranean?

 

[lucaspa]

You may want to visit this site:

OOPARTS
http://www.s8int.com/

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

And the relationship of this to Noah's Flood? All these have been refuted in other places. For instance, they tout DNA as the biggest of oopa, yet chemistry and evolution by natural selection show that DNA is not a manufactured artifact.

 

[lucaspa]

The question is, how big was the world for Humans?
As primitave cultures seem to do, they think that the Earth is flat and that its size is from edge to edge of sea or ocean, perhaps the world of Noah was only the Mediterranean?

Or only the Tigris-Euphrates Valley? (which is flat as a pancake, BTW)

 

[MagusAlbertus]

I was wondering what exactly people think of Noah and the flood?

I think God's book is true 100%.

I dont really need replies from YECs, as their view is fairly obioous, so please only reply if from another POV.

I'm not a YEC.

Do you think it happened as a literal event?

yes.

And when, how long ago?

I don't know.

 

[lucaspa]

[/font]I think God's book is true 100%. I'm not a YEC.

How can you not be a YEC? Counting back the generations in Matthew and Luke, taken together with the ages of the people in Genesis 5 gives you a young earth. How do you get around that and still believe the Bible is 100% true?

If you believe the Bible is 100% true, what do you do with Luke 2:1? Do you really believe all the world was enrolled? If so, why?

If you believe the Bible is 100% true, and don't read any of it symbolically (which is what you imply), then how do you deal with ob 26:7, I Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and Psalm 104:5? Each of them states in plain Hebrew that the earth is immovable. Does the earth move or doesn't it?

 

[MagusAlbertus]

How can you not be a YEC? Matthew and Luke,ages of the people in Genesis 5

The human with a soul was not created t’ll recently

Luke 2:1? believe all world enrolled

that all the world be enrolled –

all the world being all of the roman world, the term ‘world’ here didn’t refer to the planet earth.

If you believe the Bible is 100% true, and don't read any of it symbolically (which is what you imply), then how do you deal with ob 26:7, I Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and Psalm 104:5?

There is plenty of symbolism in the bible, I don’t belive that only 144k are going to heaven nor that the anit-christ is a 7 headed dragon.. persay;

Job 26

Stretching out the north over desolation, Hanging the earth upon nothing,

This is from the young literal translation, it says that the earth is ‘hanging ‘ upon nothing, which meshes just fine with it spinning around the sun; the bible isn’t a book of science, but it’s not wrong either.

I Chronicles 16:30

26 For all gods of the peoples [are] nought, And Jehovah the heavens hath made.27 Honor and majesty [are] before Him, Strength and joy [are] in His place. 28 Ascribe to Jehovah, ye families of peoples, Ascribe to Jehovah honor and strength.
29 Ascribe to Jehovah the honor of His name, Lift up a present, and come before Him. Bow yourselves to Jehovah, In the beauty of holiness.

30 Be pained before Him, all the earth:
31 Also, established is the world, It is not moved! The heavens rejoice, and the earth is glad, And they say among nations: Jehovah hath reigned.

The world a regon, or totality of people on the earth *ie new world, old world, etc* not the earth as in vs 30. And it’s talking about how they where not spiritualy moved.

Psalm 93

1 Jehovah hath reigned, Excellency He hath put on, Jehovah put on strength, He girded Himself, Also -- established is the world, unmoved.2 Established is Thy throne since then, From the age Thou [art].3 Floods have lifted up, O Jehovah, Floods have lifted up their voice, Floods lift up their breakers.4 Than the voices of many mighty waters, Breakers of a sea, mighty on high [is] Jehovah,5 Thy testimonies have been very steadfast, To Thy house comely [is] holiness, O Jehovah, for length of days!

This song is about the ‘world’, which is a geo-political region. The spiritual un-movement of the world God is loved in is assured along with other qualities of God such as when he "He girded Himself"

Psalm 96

10 Say among nations, `Jehovah hath reigned, Also -- established is the world, unmoved, He judgeth the peoples in uprightness.

song about world not earth, this reference could also be to how Jehovah had reigned unmoved as per the “reigned, also.. world, unmoved”; It also says that 'nations say';

psalm 104:

3 Who is laying the beam of His upper chambers in the waters, Who is making thick clouds His chariot, Who is walking on wings of wind,
4 Making His messengers -- the winds, His ministers -- the flaming fire.
5 He hath founded earth on its bases, It is not moved to the age and for ever.

First the symbolism in this song is apparent, I don’t believe that God rides around in a chariot made of clouds. The bases of the earth that God created are, the various layers of crust mantel and core, and the earth has not been moved from those bases

Each of them states in plain Hebrew that the earth is immovable. Does the earth move or doesn't it?

all but one says the world, that most probibly being the geopolitical regeon; the other Is a symbolic song that isn’t nesisaraly wrong in it’s statements.