No, You Reallly Are Not "Pro-Choice"

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Douglas, you may want to take another look at your Bible...

Luke 1:15 - "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

Luke 1:41 - When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:44 - "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.

And I wasn't attacking you, I'm actually trying to help you. Are you able to provide ANY Biblical support aside from your idea about how Adam was formed to support your position? Are you able to provide ANY scientific or medical papers or quotes, or anything that would support your assertion that a new human being is NOT formed at conception? Seriously, you've done nothing at all to support your position.

LOOK. those verses say what they say. THEY DO NOT SAY THE VAIN IMAGININGS YOU PROPOSE.

(Unless you can show at least some link to those vain imaginings.)

Like I pointed out already, all I have to do is point to the flaws in your reasoning and your false facts, whereas you who want to make the very extravagant claim that there is a human being in the womb, that requires some very fancy footwork.

 

[SPF]

Luke 1:15 - "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

Luke 1:41 - When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:44 - "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.

Really? You don't think they say:
1) John was filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in the womb
2) John leaped for joy

That's all I've said they say. I'm really just repeating the actual verses. Not much exegesis involved in this. I think the link is that I'm literally repeating the verses!

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Luke 1:15 - "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

Luke 1:41 - When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:44 - "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.

Really? You don't think they say:
1) John was filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in the womb
2) John leaped for joy

That's all I've said they say. I'm really just repeating the actual verses. Not much exegesis involved in this. I think the link is that I'm literally repeating the verses!

Really? You really think it is true, what you say here. Well IT IS NOT THE BIBLE TRUE.
You are NOT literally or accurately repeating the verses!

The Bible does NOT say, 1. "John was filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in the womb."
a. It does NOT say there was any John in any womb.
b. It does NOT say there was any Holy Spirit in any womb.

2. "John leaped for joy." The Bible does not make ANY reference to John in Luke 1:41 or Luke 1:44.
(BECAUSE AT THAT POINT THERE WAS NO JOHN, in case you are wondering!)

"Such lovely verses." "So much clarity."

 

[SPF]

Douglas, it's nothing short of depressing to see someone fight against Scripture as much as you do for a position that you have zero support to even maintain in the first place.

The Bible does indeed say that that John was filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in the womb. In Luke 1:13 the angel tells Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth will bear a son, and he is to be named John. In verse 14 the angel is saying they will have joy and gladness and many will rejoice at his birth. Then in verse 15 the angel is giving us some facts about him (John) - he (John) will be great in the sight of the Lord, he (John) will not drink, and he (John) will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb. All those things are about John. John is the subject. Can you find one commentary that disagrees with this? Can you find ANYONE to support you? Does anyone on this forum reading think Douglas is making any point at all?

Let's not also forget that Paul says in Galatians 1:15 that God set him apart even from his mother's womb. Does God set apart these fleshless blobs that you like to call them?

 

[AACJ]

Yes, that sounds bad. Imagine, if you will, 4 or 5 neglected children raised
by the parents of the pregnant teen mother until they also become pregnant.
Then raising those grandkids. Are you ready to do that?

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me (Phil. 4:13)

Imagine a re-evangelized nation. Imagine devine intervention.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Douglas, it's nothing short of depressing to see someone fight against Scripture as much as you do for a position that you have zero support to even maintain in the first place.

The Bible does indeed say that that John was filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in the womb. In Luke 1:13 the angel tells Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth will bear a son, and he is to be named John. In verse 14 the angel is saying they will have joy and gladness and many will rejoice at his birth. Then in verse 15 the angel is giving us some facts about him (John) - he (John) will be great in the sight of the Lord, he (John) will not drink, and he (John) will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb. All those things are about John. John is the subject. Can you find one commentary that disagrees with this? Can you find ANYONE to support you? Does anyone on this forum reading think Douglas is making any point at all?

Let's not also forget that Paul says in Galatians 1:15 that God set him apart even from his mother's womb. Does God set apart these fleshless blobs that you like to call them?

"From" does not mean "in." So Galatians 1:15 is not even talking about "in womb," i.e. fetus stuff. And you misrepresent it with "set him apart." He separated him from the womb, in other words caused him to be born. Caused the coming into being of John.

YOUR FALSITY is not appreciated, especially since it is a FALSE WITNESS.
"Fleshless blobs" does not even make sense, cannot possibly make sense. Unless it is maybe metal blobs one is talking about, yet I'm pretty sure there is not much of that in any womb.
If you wish to quote me, quote me. Don't falsely say I say things I don't say!

Your continuing mis-identification of "John": 1. Will be great when in sight i.e. can be seen. (I.e. NOT in womb.) 2. Will not drink strong drink - CERTAINLY NOT about ANYTHING IN WOMB.
3. Will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. I.e., not in, unless you are trying to use a very questionable point to make your case.

I.E. the stuff re John beginning at verse 13, "thou shalt call his name John," all of it comes, is done, after his being born. It is rejoicing at his BIRTH. etc. Speaking of the REAL John, NOT some fetus.

 

[AACJ]

Really? You really think it is true, what you say here. Well IT IS NOT THE BIBLE TRUE.
You are NOT literally or accurately repeating the verses!

The Bible does NOT say, 1. "John was filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in the womb."
a. It does NOT say there was any John in any womb.
b. It does NOT say there was any Holy Spirit in any womb.

2. "John leaped for joy." The Bible does not make ANY reference to John in Luke 1:41 or Luke 1:44.

"Such lovely verses." "So much clarity."

There would be no pronoun "he" in v.15 without its antecedent, "John" in v.13. Both refer to the same person, "John." Basic grammar, I believe.

Luk 1:13 'But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

The pronoun "he" is clearly identifying a specific, living person, John!

(BECAUSE AT THAT POINT THERE WAS NO JOHN, in case you are wondering!)

Whaaaaat????

 

[SkyWriting]

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me (Phil. 4:13)

Imagine a re-evangelized nation. Imagine devine intervention.

God finished the world after he heard all your prayers past and future.
Your task is to get up to speed, when you pray.
Not to get God up to speed.

 

[AACJ]

"From" does not mean "in." So Galatians 1:15 is not even talking about "in womb," i.e. fetus stuff.

YOUR FALSITY is not appreciated, especially since it is a FALSE WITNESS.
"Fleshless blobs" does not even make sense, cannot possibly make sense. Unless it is maybe metal blobs one is talking about, yet I'm pretty sure there is not much of that in any womb.
If you wish to quote me, quote me. Don't falsely say I say things I don't say!

Your continuing mis-identification of "John": 1. Will be great when in sight i.e. can be seen. (I.e. NOT in womb.) 2. Will not drink strong drink - CERTAINLY NOT about ANYTHING IN WOMB.
3. Will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. I.e., not in, unless you are trying to use a very questionable point to make your case.

I.E. the stuff re John beginning at verse 13, "thou shalt call his name John," all of it comes, is done, after his being born. It is rejoicing at his BIRTH. etc. Speaking of the REAL John, NOT some fetus.

OH, I am going to have some fun with your post. If I can find the time.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

OH, I am going to have some fun with your post. If, I can find the time.

Promises promises!

 

[AACJ]

God finished the world after he heard all your prayers past and future.
Your task is to get up to speed, when you pray.
Not to get God up to speed.

Sounds Calvinian to me. Too bad.

I don't believe that you understand what this verse fully means:

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men (Matthew 5:13).

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

There would be no pronoun "he" in v.15 without its antecedent, "John" in v.13. Both refer to the same person, "John." Basic grammar, I believe.

Luk 1:13 'But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

The pronoun "he" is clearly identifying a specific, living person, John!

Quite so quite so, the real born person, John. NOT SOME FETUS.

13. The promise of the angel to Zachaiuas is that his wife will bear a son, i.e. deliver unto him a son. Whom he shall call John. When delivered. (And we know the christening came 8 days after birth.)

14. The rejoicing would be at his birth. Not before. In relation to the real "him."

15. He shall be great in the sight of the Lord, i.e. as a real grown man doing the work of being a forerunner to Jesus. "HE" shall drink neither wine nor strong drink, a real "he," nothing about a fetus.
He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even at birth but of course especially in his work for God.

Like you say, the pronoun "he" is clearly identifying a specific, living person, the man named John, the man born of Elisabeth.

The Bible is "Bible TRUE," like I say, and does NOT say there is any John in any womb.
BECAUSE THERE IS NO JOHN EVER IN ANY WOMB.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Sounds Calvinian to me. Too bad.

I don't believe that you understand what this verse fully means:

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men (Matthew 5:13).

So what does this verse FULLY mean?
I think spiritual salt is particularly indicated, and since the Holy Spirit of Godlove is based in sex, part of the fulness of saltiness is things like cleavage.
I.M.H.O.

 

[SkyWriting]

LOOK. those verses say what they say. THEY DO NOT SAY THE VAIN IMAGININGS YOU PROPOSE.

Really? You really think it is true, what you say here. Well IT IS NOT THE BIBLE TRUE.
You are NOT literally or accurately repeating the verses!

The Bible does NOT say, 1. "John was filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in the womb."
a. It does NOT say there was any John in any womb.
b. It does NOT say there was any Holy Spirit in any womb.

These cover it better:

1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The LORD called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me.

Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb and two peoples from within
you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other,

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before I formed you in the womb
I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;

New International Version
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

New Living Translation
for he will be great in the eyes of the Lord. He must never touch wine or other alcoholic drinks. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth.

English Standard Version
for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Berean Study Bible
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb.

Berean Literal Bible
For he will be great before the Lord. And he shall never drink wine and strong drink, and he will be full of the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb.

New American Standard Bible
"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

New International Version
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

New Living Translation
You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb.

English Standard Version
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.

New American Standard Bible
For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.

King James Bible
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For it was You who created my inward parts; You knit me together in my mother's womb.

International Standard Version
It was you who formed my internal organs, fashioning me within my mother's womb.

NET Bible
Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother's womb.

15"Did not He who made me in the womb make him (my servant), And the same one fashion us in the womb?

 

[SkyWriting]

Sounds Calvinian to me. Too bad.I don't believe that you understand what this verse fully means:Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men (Matthew 5:13).

I've not found anyone who knows much about being the salt of the earth.
Salt adds flavor.

 

[SkyWriting]

So what does this verse FULLY mean?
I think spiritual salt is particularly indicated, and since the Holy Spirit of Godlove is based in sex, part of the fulness of saltiness is things like cleavage.

Spiritual counseling on cleavage? This will take time to digest.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

These cover it better:

1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The LORD called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me.
Be nice if you indicated where this is from. And whose translation.
As I already pointed out in this thread, "from" is more like "since" or "after," NOT "in."
So nothing really about anything in the womb, unless one wants to stretch it and say it only makes sense in that way. (Which it doesn't.)

Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb and two peoples from within
you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other,
Two nations are no more reality here than two persons, if it said that. And it does not.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before I formed you in the womb
I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;
Would seem we should acknowledge that God is responsible for all womb activity, as he is responsible for all creation. So the "forming" is God's work, one might say. (Or does that only apply to Jeremiah?)
Anyway, the most interesting thing to note here is that it is before there was anything created in a womb that (the fetus that would be Jeremiah) was especially noticed by God, dedicated, set apart. Whatever that means. It certainly says nothing about activity or "things" within any womb.

New International Version
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
"Even from" is what the Greek words say; (be nice if you gave the reference).
Which although some may want it to mean "in," with more certainty means "from."

New Living Translation
for he will be great in the eyes of the Lord. He must never touch wine or other alcoholic drinks. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth.
Another rather faulty translation, imho.

English Standard Version
for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
A more accurate translation in that it takes into account the Greek "ek."

Berean Study Bible
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb.
Be nice to know what "filled" with the Holy Spirit means exactly, for then it would be easier to see whether such is even possible in any womb.

Berean Literal Bible
For he will be great before the Lord. And he shall never drink wine and strong drink, and he will be full of the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb.
Same rather good translation that makes sense and takes into account the Greek words.
"From" meaning "after" or "since."

New American Standard Bible
"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.
An off the rails translation in my view, designed to make an ideological point.

New International Version
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Again, simply means he gives credit to God for womb activity, just like one might give God credit for the sun rising.

New Living Translation
You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb.
Ditto for my last comment.

English Standard Version
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
Ditto.

New American Standard Bible
For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
Ditto.

King James Bible
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Ditto. God has seen fit to provide an environment in the womb that is protective of the fetus.
Makes sense only in that there was an actual he, a living breathing born person who had been put together in a womb.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For it was You who created my inward parts; You knit me together in my mother's womb.
Ditto for last my last comment.

International Standard Version
It was you who formed my internal organs, fashioning me within my mother's womb.
Ditto.

NET Bible
Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother's womb.
Ditto.

15"Did not He who made me in the womb make him (my servant), And the same one fashion us in the womb?
Same giving God the credit for womb activity. Not sensibly saying more than that.

You don't say if these quotes you throw out say the same thing I say better, or not.
Usually these quotes are used to try to say the opposite of what I am saying, so I have briefly treated them in that light, as poor arguments for what people often take them to be saying.

I have responded to each one in blue, immediately after what you have posted.

 

[SkyWriting]

You don't say if these quotes you throw out say the same thing I say better, or not.
Usually these quotes are used to try to say the opposite of what I am saying, so I have briefly treated them in that light, as poor arguments for what people often take them to be saying.

I have responded to each one in blue, immediately after what you have posted.

Gosh, and every point a failure.
Every person knows that the
birth process creates no spiritual
change in the fetus. It is the same
in or out, early, late, on-time
or surgically removed.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Gosh, and every point a failure.
Every person knows that the
birth process creates no spiritual
change in the fetus. It is the same
in or out, early, late, on-time
or surgically removed.

Yet birth certainly is the point of immense biological/physical changes, the coming into being of a new (human) animal being.

 

[SPF]

The Luke narrative concerning John the Baptist's experiences in life while in the womb really constitute a 1-2 punch for Douglas' lone view that a human being with a soul does not come into existence until it takes its first breath after being removed from the womb.

Luke 1:15 - For he [John] will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he [John] will drink no wine or liquor, and he [John] will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's [Elizabeth's] womb.

So first we have an angel declaring that John, while even still located inside Elizabeth's womb, would be filled with the Holy Spirit.

We then actually see something happen a few verses later which only enforce the angel's words as true.

Luke 1:41,44 - When Elizabeth hear Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby [John] leaped in my womb for joy.

You put all of this together and the position that Douglas puts forth, which he actually provides zero support for, crumbles. It crumbles before this because Douglas can't actually support anything he says with any Biblical evidence or scientific evidence. But this passage just really seals the deal and puts the nail in the empty coffin.