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No wonder the situation in the middle east

Oafman

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There's not a single failed prediction in the Bible whatsoever.

Go ahead, point out one.
Ok, some geography first. The nile will dry up. Never happened.

Some more geography: Egypt will become a barren wasteland. Here's the Nile Delta, looking pretty fertile from space:

The%20Nile%20Delta%20from%20Gemini%204,%201965.jpg


Here's one you won't like:

Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the city of Tyre

Why won't you like it? Because, the reason it didn't happen is that after a 13 year long siege, Nebuchadnezzar and the Tyrians reached a compromise. Rather than screaming dogma at each other and fighting to the death, they reached an agreement, and peace ensued. How about you take a leaf from their book?
 
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Xalith

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Ok, some geography first. The nile will dry up. Never happened.

Some more geography: Egypt will become a barren wasteland. Here's the Nile Delta, looking pretty fertile from space:

The%20Nile%20Delta%20from%20Gemini%204,%201965.jpg

Well, I ask you... are there any Pharaohs today? No, there's not. That ended with Cleopatra. And He never said that it would be desolate "forever". There have been famines in the lands, and such. Just because it ain't desolate today, doesn't mean it wasn't temporarily so.

Here's one you won't like:

Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the city of Tyre

Why won't you like it? Because, the reason it didn't happen is that after a 13 year long siege, Nebuchadnezzar and the Tyrians reached a compromise. Rather than screaming dogma at each other and fighting to the death, they reached an agreement, and peace ensued. How about you take a leaf from their book?

If you examine the text and compare it to history, Ezekiel says that they will lay siege (which they did), and that the city will be plundered (which it probably was, as Tyre submitted and surrendered). In fact, Wiki notes that Tyre had to pay taxes and tribute (hence, 'plundered').

As for verse 14, I see two possibilities:

1). Tyre, while it stands as a city today, does not have its own military, government, etc and it is not a heavily fortified city as it was. Perhaps He meant that it will never be rebuilt "as it was".

2). They repented of their evil and so God allowed the city to be rebuilt, though it was subservient to the various conquerors over the years and it is now a part of Lebanon. You see the same thing happening with Nineveh in the Bible; Jonah predicted its doom and they put on sackcloth and repented and God spared the city and Jonah was upset about it, and God corrected him.

I'm not seeing any "Failed Prediction" here.

Wanna try another?
 
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Oafman

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Well, I ask you... are there any Pharaohs today? No, there's not. That ended with Cleopatra. And He never said that it would be desolate "forever". There have been famines in the lands, and such. Just because it ain't desolate today, doesn't mean it wasn't temporarily so.
"I will dry up the waters of the Nile... I the LORD have spoken."

The Nile has never dried up. I deliberately picked an unequivocal prophecy, leaving you no room to say 'ooh, well it dried up a bit, or there was a bit of a drought' when that is clearly not what was prophesied.

If you examine the text and compare it to history, Ezekiel says that they will lay siege (which they did), and that the city will be plundered (which it probably was, as Tyre submitted and surrendered). In fact, Wiki notes that Tyre had to pay taxes and tribute (hence, 'plundered').

As for verse 14, I see two possibilities:

1). Tyre, while it stands as a city today, does not have its own military, government, etc and it is not a heavily fortified city as it was. Perhaps He meant that it will never be rebuilt "as it was".

2). They repented of their evil and so God allowed the city to be rebuilt, though it was subservient to the various conquerors over the years and it is now a part of Lebanon. You see the same thing happening with Nineveh in the Bible; Jonah predicted its doom and they put on sackcloth and repented and God spared the city and Jonah was upset about it, and God corrected him.
"With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will kill your people with the sword, and your mighty pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and loot your merchandise. They will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses. Your stones and timber and soil they will cast into the midst of the waters. ... 14 I will make you a bare rock.... You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the Lord"

This prophecy unambiguously fortells the complete destruction of the city of Tyre. Which never happened.

Wanna try another?
No. Because, as many examples as there are, this isn't really relevant. What is relevant is that, while I'm quite happy for you to believe in and worship God, and to believe in scripture, you should not use those beliefs as justification for a land grab, to the cost of those who do not share them.
 
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Another Lazarus

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Ok, some geography first. The nile will dry up. Never happened.

Some more geography: Egypt will become a barren wasteland. Here's the Nile Delta, looking pretty fertile from space:

Here's one you won't like:

Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the city of Tyre

Why won't you like it? Because, the reason it didn't happen is that after a 13 year long siege, Nebuchadnezzar and the Tyrians reached a compromise. Rather than screaming dogma at each other and fighting to the death, they reached an agreement, and peace ensued. How about you take a leaf from their book?

The Hebrew translation didnt say Nile river
יב וְנָתַתִּי יְאֹרִים חָרָבָה, וּמָכַרְתִּי אֶת-הָאָרֶץ בְּיַד-רָעִיםוַהֲשִׁמֹּתִי אֶרֶץ וּמְלֹאָהּ, בְּיַד-זָרִים--אֲנִי יְהוָה, דִּבַּרְתִּי. {ס};
Ez 30:12 And I will make the rivers dry

You are talking about events that happened over 2500 years ago. I am not aware of any archeological evidence that proves whether or not Babylon successfully conquered Egypt's capital, destroyed its structures, or enslaved its people. Keep in mind that the lack of archeological evidence for Babylon's victory cannot automatically be cited as evidence that the prophecy had failed, because that would be an argument from silence, and an argument from silence is a categorically weak argument. Just because a person has not found his preferred evidence at some point in time, does not mean that he shall not eventually find it. As is frequently quoted, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

What will you accept? The chronology of secular historians who mould the Bible to fit their chronology, making inspired prophecies fail? Or will you accept the complete and harmonious Biblical chronology, which gives us a time-line without contradictions, showing the total fulfillment of every prophecy Jehovah gave us? Will you judge the accuracy of secular chronology against the occasions where it agrees with the Bible, or will you only judge the Bible correct if the secular evidence happens to agree with it?

May Jesus bless u all HalleluYAH
 
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Another Lazarus

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1). Tyre, while it stands as a city today, does not have its own military, government, etc and it is not a heavily fortified city as it was. Perhaps He meant that it will never be rebuilt "as it was".

2). They repented of their evil and so God allowed the city to be rebuilt, though it was subservient to the various conquerors over the years and it is now a part of Lebanon. You see the same thing happening with Nineveh in the Bible; Jonah predicted its doom and they put on sackcloth and repented and God spared the city and Jonah was upset about it, and God corrected him.

Biblical archaeologists admit that the area of Tyre was so well cleared by Alexander the Great that no one knows where the original city was located. If we don’t know where it was, we can’t confirm it was ever rebuilt.

May Jesus bless u all HalleluYAH
 
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Oafman

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The Hebrew translation didnt say Nile river
יב וְנָתַתִּי יְאֹרִים חָרָבָה, וּמָכַרְתִּי אֶת-הָאָרֶץ בְּיַד-רָעִיםוַהֲשִׁמֹּתִי אֶרֶץ וּמְלֹאָהּ, בְּיַד-זָרִים--אֲנִי יְהוָה, דִּבַּרְתִּי. {ס};
Ez 30:12 And I will make the rivers dry
That whole passage is talking about the destruction of Egypt. So 'make the rivers dry' must mean Egyptian rivers. There is one dominant river in Egypt, which at the time almost single-handedly sustained the population. Are you seriously suggesting that this destruction of Egypt would involve drying up some other minor rivers, and not the Nile?!

This is why so many versions of the Bible use the word Nile. Because it is quite obvious that this is what Ezekiel meant.

You are talking about events that happened over 2500 years ago. I am not aware of any archeological evidence that proves whether or not Babylon successfully conquered Egypt's capital, destroyed its structures, or enslaved its people. Keep in mind that the lack of archeological evidence for Babylon's victory cannot automatically be cited as evidence that the prophecy had failed, because that would be an argument from silence, and an argument from silence is a categorically weak argument. Just because a person has not found his preferred evidence at some point in time, does not mean that he shall not eventually find it. As is frequently quoted, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Biblical archaeologists admit that the area of Tyre was so well cleared by Alexander the Great that no one knows where the original city was located. If we don’t know where it was, we can’t confirm it was ever rebuilt.
"I will make you a bare rock.... You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the Lord"

If you want to make the argument that Nebuchadnezzar did destroy Tyre (contradicted by the evidence of their agreement, but let's overlook that for a second), but it was subsequently rebuilt in time for Jesus' visit, then that is also contrary to the prophecy.

For that prophecy to have been true, Tyre would have needed to be 'a bare rock' when Jesus got there. It wasnt.

What will you accept? The chronology of secular historians who mould the Bible to fit their chronology, making inspired prophecies fail? Or will you accept the complete and harmonious Biblical chronology, which gives us a time-line without contradictions, showing the total fulfillment of every prophecy Jehovah gave us? Will you judge the accuracy of secular chronology against the occasions where it agrees with the Bible, or will you only judge the Bible correct if the secular evidence happens to agree with it?
I will listen to those who go where the evidence takes them, without seeking to support preconceived ideas. I will not listen to those who obviously employ some incredible mental gymnastics to attempt to squeeze the unsupportive evidence into something which fits their preconceived ideas.
 
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Another Lazarus

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For that prophecy to have been true, Tyre would have needed to be 'a bare rock' when Jesus got there. It wasnt.
Biblical archaeologists admit that the area of Tyre was so well cleared by Alexander the Great that no one knows where the original city was located. If we don’t know where it was, we can’t confirm it was ever rebuilt.
They rebuilt another city on another location.
I believe the words of God instead of the words of the wise

May Jesus bless u all HalleluYAH
 
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Xalith

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Biblical archaeologists admit that the area of Tyre was so well cleared by Alexander the Great that no one knows where the original city was located. If we don’t know where it was, we can’t confirm it was ever rebuilt.
They rebuilt another city on another location.
I believe the words of God instead of the words of the wise

May Jesus bless u all HalleluYAH

And that's assuming that this wasn't Nineveh 2.0, where God had Jonah go there and tell them that doom was fast approaching. The people of Nineveh repented and God held back said impending doom and Jonah got angry with God that he was made to be a "liar" and God had to correct him.

Maybe enough people in Tyre repented and turned away from their evil ways because of this prophecy, just like Nineveh? We don't know that, because the Bible doesn't specifically say whether or not this was the case. It does in Jonah, but not here. Sometimes God warns people that very bad things will come if they don't turn away from their sin; He promises that He will spare His wrath and judgment if they repent and the Bible is full of that. The Bible is also full of people who refused to repent and they wound up getting destroyed, or enslaved, or conquered (like Israel itself did).
 
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ViaCrucis

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And that's assuming that this wasn't Nineveh 2.0, where God had Jonah go there and tell them that doom was fast approaching. The people of Nineveh repented and God held back said impending doom and Jonah got angry with God that he was made to be a "liar" and God had to correct him.

Maybe enough people in Tyre repented and turned away from their evil ways because of this prophecy, just like Nineveh? We don't know that, because the Bible doesn't specifically say whether or not this was the case. It does in Jonah, but not here. Sometimes God warns people that very bad things will come if they don't turn away from their sin; He promises that He will spare His wrath and judgment if they repent and the Bible is full of that. The Bible is also full of people who refused to repent and they wound up getting destroyed, or enslaved, or conquered (like Israel itself did).

And that gets us to a more appropriate understanding of what prophecy--biblically--is. Prophecy is not fortune-telling, the ministry and mission of the ancient prophets wasn't to tell the future, but to proclaim God's word. The Nabi (Navi), translated as prophet, was that of a spokesperson, namely God's spokesperson, one who proclaimed God's word. Likewise the Greek word from which we get the word "prophet", prophetes, means the same, "one who speaks on behalf of". Prophecy was about declaring and proclaiming the things of God; the prophets served the role as people who spoke truth to power, speaking against corruption and faithlessness, which is why the prophets regularly speak against the wealthy and the rulers for their mistreatment of the poor, the hungry, and the needy; it's why the prophets called people back to God's covenant promises and to be faithful to God's commandments, to speak against the idolatry and wickedness of the people (and especially the people in power). And so this forth-telling was to speak both of Judgment and Redemption. God's judgment against ungodliness, which could include warnings of what would befall the people if they continued on their path of corruption and wickedness, but also promises of redemption and restoration for the oppressed--that no matter the harshness of God's judgments against His people He would never abandon them and would, ultimately, restore and redeem them from trouble and woe.

This would also include hyperbolic language, speaking of utter destruction and ruin for the purpose of speaking against the wicked oppressor. And so to speak strong language against, for example Egypt, such as to describe the rivers drying out and entire cities reduced to complete rubble was to speak of judgment against those powers that be; not necessarily that it would function as an absolute prediction in every possible detail.

It is problematic the way we moderns have a tendency to read the biblical texts as modern Westerners, because we usually miss the point of what Scripture is saying when we fail to grasp the basics which those ancient people would have understood their own writings. Which is why if we want to read the Bible rightly we need to, as best as we can, to try and read the texts as ancient people did. Reading the Old Testament in ways which ancient bronze age near eastern Hebrews did and to make sense of the text as being part of their world, not as though it is part of ours. Because the Bible wasn't written to us, when Jeremiah spoke and wrote he wasn't speaking to you and me, he was speaking to his own people ~2500 years ago. And the Bible can't mean anything to us today unless we understand what it meant to them back then. It's the same with the New Testament, understanding that when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans he wasn't writing to you and me, but to the Christians in Rome.

That's what proper exegesis entails.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Another Lazarus

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I will listen to those who go where the evidence takes them, without seeking to support preconceived ideas. I will not listen to those who obviously employ some incredible mental gymnastics to attempt to squeeze the unsupportive evidence into something which fits their preconceived ideas.

Do you believe that God had parted the Red Sea ? what evidence do you have ?
 
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Rick Otto

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Ok, some geography first. The nile will dry up. Never happened.

Some more geography: Egypt will become a barren wasteland. Here's the Nile Delta, looking pretty fertile from space:

The%20Nile%20Delta%20from%20Gemini%204,%201965.jpg


Here's one you won't like:

Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the city of Tyre

Why won't you like it? Because, the reason it didn't happen is that after a 13 year long siege, Nebuchadnezzar and the Tyrians reached a compromise. Rather than screaming dogma at each other and fighting to the death, they reached an agreement, and peace ensued. How about you take a leaf from their book?
Did you have to move your cup holder to get that shot?
 
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Another Lazarus

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This would also include hyperbolic language, speaking of utter destruction and ruin for the purpose of speaking against the wicked oppressor.
-CryptoLutheran

Do you think the Resurrection of Jesus is also a hyperbolic language ?

Which is more difficult to God, to create the whole universe or to resurrect a dead Jesus, or to dry the river in Egypt 2500 years ago ? or to part the Red Sea ?

May Jesus bless u all HalleluYAH
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do you think the Resurrection of Jesus is also a hyperbolic language ?

No. But I also know the difference between the early Christians talking about the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and apocalyptic language.

I'd recommend learning how to read the Bible before trying to interpret it.

Which is more difficult to God, to create the whole universe or to resurrect a dead man.

Why would either be difficult for God?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Another Lazarus

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No. But I also know the difference between the early Christians talking about the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and apocalyptic language.
-CryptoLutheran

please specify what do u mean the difference between the early Christians talking about the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and apocalyptic language.

May Jesus bless u all HalleluYAH
 
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ViaCrucis

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please specify what do u mean the difference between the early Christians talking about the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and apocalyptic language.

May Jesus bless u all HalleluYAH

Apocalyptic is an ancient literary genre that is well known. Most apocalypses lay outside the biblical canon, but Scripture does contain apocalyptic material: The book of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (also known as the book of Revelation).

Apocalyptic language is intentionally big, loud, graphic, and intense. Typical of the genre has a figure being shown great things by a heavenly being, an angel usually. So in Daniel God sends Gabriel to reveal things to Daniel; in the Revelation John is transported into the heavenly realms and an angel shows him grand visions. But this is also true of other apocalypses, such as the Apocalypse of Abraham, the Apocalypse of Ezra, or the Apocalypse of Peter. The point of the apocalypse isn't that it contains visions of the future, but visions, revelations (the Greek word apokalypsis means "revelation").

So it's important to understand what an apocalypse is, literarily, and what apocalyptic language entails.

And there is a fundamental difference between apocalyptic language and basic confessional language, such as what St. Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 15, concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus. Or the Gospel narratives, wherein the Lord says "feel me and see I am not a ghost, I am flesh and bone".

Understanding literary differences between books of the Bible, understanding the nuances and ways in which language is used between the biblical texts is absolutely critical to making sense of the Bible at all.

So no, I don't treat the confessional nature of Christ's death and resurrection the same way I treat the hyperbolic, apocalyptic, or allegorical uses of language in different parts of the Bible.

I believe that when the Gospels say there was a man named John baptizing in the Jordan they mean to say there was a man named John baptizing in the Jordan.

But I do not believe that when the Psalmist says, "God is my rock" that he means to say that God, literally, is a large composite of solid mineral.

And, likewise, I do not believe that when St. John writes that he saw a prostitute riding upon a scarlet beast that he intends it to mean there is a literal prostitute riding a literal scarlet beast.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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tommyghann

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You may know about Theodor Herzl . He was one of the Early 19 Th Century Jewish Fathers of the idea of Jews worldwide returning back to Israel.

On January 26, 1904, Theodor Herzl - The had an audience with Pope Pius X in the Vatican to seek Catholic support to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. * A Secure place for all Scattered Jews Worldwide to RETURN back HOME and live.

The Pope Demanded and Commanded that Theodor Herzl was to Bow down and Kiss his hand. Theodor Herzl REFUSED to Kiss the popes hand . The Pope Commands and DEMANDS that everyone who visits him MUST kneel down and at least kisses his hand or feet. The Pope asks strangers to approach Him and caress a part of His body with their Lips or they may Kiss His Royal Holy Ring.

Theodor Herzl Went on to ask for the Pope to please support Jews living in Israel.

The Pope Stated - [ We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem but we could never sanction it. The Pope also Stated The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people]." Jerusalem The Pope Concluded - must not get into the hands of the Jews. ...................to support the Jews in the acquisition of the Holy Places, ---- that we cannot do."

The Pope also Stated - Jews Deny - the divinity of Jesus and we cannot help them. Or else they will go there without any religion, and then we can be even less favorable to them. .................................................. ...........
Even today the Catholics around the world are eager and happy to support the Palestine Terrorist Muslims and Arabs who have been attacking and murdering the Jews. The Catholic Countries DEMAND that the Americans and Jews stop their Protective Surveillance and Military operations at the borders. And the Roman Catholic, Italian Government - Even sent Saddam Hussein - a scientist and materials for manufacturing a NUCLEAR BOMB *( Back in the 1980s )

The Jews had to Bomb the Nuclear facility , ending up accidentally unexpectedly killing the Italian, Catholic Scientist - who was on the grounds of the facility. The Jews begged and pleaded and Cried out to Catholic Italy, BEGGING them to stop. PLEASE, PLEASE Stop sending Saddam Hussein materials and technology and scientists to build this NUCLEAR BOMB ! - BUT Catholic Italy Ignored their pleas and cries and begs. Today - Catholics are working as hard as they can, day and night to POLITICALLY destroy the Idea of a Jewish Homeland and the Idea of Israel. Catholics even have adopted the god of Islam *( Allah ) as their own god. jUST to use Islam to fight this ideology war against Israel. While the pope KISSES His QURAN and Declares that the Quran is Equal to the Old Testament. I am so Saddened by this.

Every time that the Jews defend themselves, the Catholic world condemns Israel and pretends and demands that the Muslim terrorists can be fought with peace alone. But the Catholic Church fought many Crusades against the Islamic world. But Condemns Jews today - for defending their OWN Homeland.

But the Catholic Church does not RECOGNISE Israel, HEBREW RACE in relation to Old testament Prophecy or the Jews as Gods Chosen People in modern times. THEY don't like it.

We also Can REMEMBER that - Pope Pius XII on June 22 - 1943
The Pope stated that there is no Axiom / RULE / REASON - In history to substantiate the necessity of a people returning to a country they left nineteen centuries before.

If a Hebrew Home is desired, it would not be too difficult to find a more fitting territory than Palestine. With an increase in the Jewish population there, grave new, international problems would arise. Catholics the world over would be aroused.
What ? !....!......!.......! The pope Thinks that because the Roman Catholic World has not RECOGNISED the Jews in Israel for the Last 2000 years. - That they simply were living there because His Catholic Fathers before Him denied their eXistance as a Nation. Denied their Heritage and eXistance as Gods People and natural original Citizens / Natives of Israel
I am saddened by this Attitude that is at the heart of the Catholic Church,
The Jews / ZIONists ......were driven to Egypt by a great famine / DRY spell, that lasted for years. They came FROM Israel..... Joseph was the SON of JACOB.../{..ABRAHAM. } & Abraham was WERE the land of Israel STILL sits today.. They came FROM Israel

Moses was BRINGING the JEWS back to ISRAEL WHERE GOD has already told Abraham that all this would happen. 400 years before.

Gen 15:13 God said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years. Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

NOTICE .......they shall come HERE again: to THE same PLACE the SAME eXact Location WHERE GOD sent Abraham.
The situation in the Middle East would be better If Roman Catholics and Muslims would accept Gods Word and accept Israelis rights to exist and defend their own homes. Sadly Catholics choose to rather serve Allah.
 
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Another Lazarus

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Does this picture of the Economist cover predict something ?

There's a picture of suspected terrorist/isis in the picture.
and there is NAPOLEON BONAPARTE OF FRANCE waving his hand in the picture (shootings in France).

Is it just a coincidence ?

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH
 
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