No such thing as free will.

JackSparrow · Feb 21, 2013

The bottom line for me is that man is held by God to be accountable for what he ( man ) has done.. His deeds are all recorded and will be examined. Hence I assert man freely does what he does. It is not God ordaining his sin.

Having free will though does not mean he can save himself. He cannot choose a donut if he did not know a donut existed. So God is the prime mover.

Calvinists will hate what I have said. But when all things are considered, both sides are delving into infinite things using finite minds. Things that are secret to God as well.

So ultimately we cannot know and can only construct deficient world views. Ultimately these constructions bring God down to mans level and can be no other than wrong.

SeraphimsCherub · Feb 21, 2013

"Free-Will" is what they called a guy in Heaven,after he died and left earth. Who's name was Will while he lived on earth. But when GOD freed him from this prison called "life on earth",and took him Home. He was then rightfully named "Free-Will" LoLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLl

Keachian · Feb 21, 2013

JackSparrow said:
Calvinists will hate what I have said.

Can I have my crystal ball back please?

Skala · Feb 22, 2013

Man's free will is so strong and God would never do anything to impose on him (for the sake of letting him be free), that on judgement day, when God says it's time to go to hell, man can simply say "no", and God must honor that free will decision.

JackSparrow · Feb 22, 2013

progmonk said:
Can I have my crystal ball back please?

Certainly. Did not work for me. Didn't have faith in it anyway. I advise you to give it up Prog and stick to the Bible.

Skala · Feb 22, 2013

JackSparrow said:
The bottom line for me is that man is held by God to be accountable for what he ( man ) has done.. His deeds are all recorded and will be examined. Hence I assert man freely does what he does. It is not God ordaining his sin..

Your mistake, imo, is making these two concepts enemies, when in fact they are perfectly compatible with eachother. (God's decree and man's accountability for what he (man) has done)

The Bible is full of examples of God decreeing something happen yet man is sitll held accountable for what is God's plan all along. One is Acts 4:27-28 which states that the wicked men who murdered Christ were simply doing what God's predestined plan. So here you see the twofold truth, God decrees sin to happen (murdering Christ is a sin), but the men are said to be "wicked", in other words they are held accountable for doing it.

Therefore, it is completely legit and viable and Biblical for Calvinists to believe that God decrees sinful things yet men are still morally held accountable for sinning.

Why?

Because the Bible teaches it.

If anyone disagrees, he/she is not disagreeing with Calvinism, but disagreeing with the Bible itself.

elman · Feb 22, 2013

Skala said:
Your mistake, imo, is making these two concepts enemies, when in fact they are perfectly compatible with eachother. (God's decree and man's accountability for what he (man) has done)

The Bible is full of examples of God decreeing something happen yet man is sitll held accountable for what is God's plan all along. One is Acts 4:27-28 which states that the wicked men who murdered Christ were simply doing what God's predestined plan. So here you see the twofold truth, God decrees sin to happen (murdering Christ is a sin), but the men are said to be "wicked", in other words they are held accountable for doing it.

Your mistake is assuming God killed His own son. He did not. Wicked men did it and God did not make them do it. That is why they are wicked. If God made them do it, then God is wicked and they are not.

Keachian · Feb 22, 2013

elman said:
Your mistake is assuming God killed His own son. He did not. Wicked men did it and God did not make them do it. That is why they are wicked. If God made them do it, then God is wicked and they are not.

So Christ could have not been Crucified? Whatever happened to slain from the foundation of the world? And the Song of the Suffering Servant, where it is said that Yahweh was pleased to crush him?

elman · Feb 22, 2013

progmonk said:
So Christ could have not been Crucified? Whatever happened to slain from the foundation of the world? And the Song of the Suffering Servant, where it is said that Yahweh was pleased to crush him?

God is good. What happened to that? Does that mean God is evil? If it does we are using square circles to discuss it. That would be words that have no meaning . They would only be gibberish. God may have knew wicked men were going to kill Jesus from the beginning of time. That does not mean God killed Jesus. God may have known from the beginning of time exactly what sins I will commit. That does not mean God did the sinning and I did not.

Keachian · Feb 22, 2013

elman said:
God is good. What happened to that? Does that mean God is evil? If it does we are using square circles to discuss it. That would be words that have no meaning . They would only be gibberish. God may have knew wicked men were going to kill Jesus from the beginning of time. That does not mean God killed Jesus. God may have known from the beginning of time exactly what sins I will commit. That does not mean God did the sinning and I did not.

Jesus laid down his life, the Jews, the Romans, Satan and God killed him. The Jews did it out of fear, the Romans did it out of jealousy, Satan did it because he thought it would lead to God's failure, Jesus did it in obedience, love and his willingness. It was God's good pleasure to do it in order to bring to glory his people.

elman · Feb 22, 2013

progmonk said:
Jesus laid down his life, the Jews, the Romans, Satan and God killed him. The Jews did it out of fear, the Romans did it out of jealousy, Satan did it because he thought it would lead to God's failure, Jesus did it in obedience, love and his willingness. It was God's good pleasure to do it in order to bring to glory his people.

God did not kill Him. God is love.

Keachian · Feb 22, 2013

elman said:
God did not kill Him. God is love.

God displayed all of his magnificent attributes by killing him including love.

Keachian · Feb 22, 2013

I also forgot to mention that we killed him elman, we are not free of the guilt from the blood of the Lamb, have you repented?

Skala · Feb 22, 2013

elman said:
Your mistake is assuming God killed His own son. He did not. Wicked men did it and God did not make them do it. That is why they are wicked. If God made them do it, then God is wicked and they are not.

Your mistake is not believing the Bible per your own admission. Thus the foundation for any argument you make is "elman feels that this belief is true".

Sorry, the Bible trumps subjective feelings.

Shulamite · Feb 22, 2013

Skala said:
Your mistake is not believing the Bible per your own admission. Thus the foundation for any argument you make is "elman feels that this belief is true".

Sorry, the Bible trumps subjective feelings.

Yes. God did indeed ordain the death of His own son and scripture says it was the Father's pleasure to crush His Son and have Him bear the penalty of our sin. It was ordained by the Father.

"The Son of Man goes as it WAS written of Him."
When was this written about the Son? In the prophets thousands of years before it happened (and even before the foundation of the world.)

The book of Acts clearly shows that had the people known they were "crucifying the Author of Life, they would not have done it." God HAD to blind their eyes and hide it from their understanding WHO Jesus actually is so that His death could take place.

Oh yes, God is good and His love decreed His Son die for me.

JackSparrow · Feb 22, 2013

Shulamite said:
]The book of Acts clearly shows that had the people known they were "crucifying the Author of Life, they would not have done it." God HAD to blind their eyes and hide it from their understanding WHO Jesus actually is so that His death could take place.

Oh yes, God is good and His love decreed His Son die for me.

Hi Shuala

Regarding 'the people'. I recommend a small and fascinating book " The Longest Week - The truth about Jesus's last Days" by Nick page.

Not quite on the same topic, Nick Page also wrote "The Wrong Messiah - The real story of Jesus of Nazareth".

Both books are full of well researched ( and referenced ) historical information.

( BTW these books have nothing to do with the C and A divide)

Shulamite · Feb 22, 2013

JackSparrow said:
Hi Shuala

Regarding 'the people'. I recommend a small and fascinating book " The Longest Week - The truth about Jesus's last Days" by Nick page.

Not quite on the same topic, Nick Page also wrote "The Wrong Messiah - The real story of Jesus of Nazareth".

Both books are full of well researched ( and referenced ) historical information.

( BTW these books have nothing to do with the C and A divide)

Thanks for the suggestions.
(By the way, off-topic-question here: Is your handle/poster name based on the "Jack Sparrow" of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies? Had to ask, lol.
I have to say I love good ole' Cap'n Jack!

Okay, back to topic. I believe the Lord had to blind the eyes of those who carried out the crucifixion so that it COULD happen. Had they known what they were doing, they would not have crucified the Auther of Life. Jesus made an interesting statement on the cross that makes sense now more than ever in light of His Sovereignty and ordaining all things for His purposes..."Father forgive them, for they know NOT what they do."
These people were tools in the hand of God to crush the Son for my sin and yours. Just my 2 cents.

JackSparrow · Feb 23, 2013

Shulamite said:
Thanks for the suggestions.
(By the way, off-topic-question here: Is your handle/poster name based on the "Jack Sparrow" of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies? Had to ask, lol.
I have to say I love good ole' Cap'n Jack!

Okay, back to topic. I believe the Lord had to blind the eyes of those who carried out the crucifixion so that it COULD happen. Had they known what they were doing, they would not have crucified the Auther of Life. Jesus made an interesting statement on the cross that makes sense now more than ever in light of His Sovereignty and ordaining all things for His purposes..."Father forgive them, for they know NOT what they do."
These people were tools in the hand of God to crush the Son for my sin and yours. Just my 2 cents.

Aye, of the Black Pearl.

"Had they know" - But precisely who ? Get the book, its well worth it.

cygnusx1 · Feb 23, 2013

If God was all for free will he wouldn't bind Satan .... Ever !

Shulamite · Feb 23, 2013

JackSparrow said:
Aye, of the Black Pearl.

"Had they know" - But precisely who ? Get the book, its well worth it.

LOL, Ok, thanks for explaining your name! Poor Jack, hope he gets his "precious pearl" BACK and keeps it for good soon! LOL

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion of the book. I do believe however, that the Lord chose to blind the eyes of those performing the crucifixion so it COULD be carried out. Even the disciples didn't understand everything the Lord was saying sometimes because the Scriptures say "it was HIDDEN from them so they could not understand." Who was doing the hiding? God.

God hides and reveals, in His timing and way, so that His will can be accomplished.

No such thing as free will.

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