No Such Thing as Atheism.

[GrimKingGrim]

But if you don't /can't believe then you won't, no matter what any human says. The power to make you believe is far above my paygrade, but that's ok. As long as you don't condemn me for my belief, I shall not condemn you for you unbelief. As long as there is life there is a chance for change (either way) and none of us knows the future.

Because I'm pretty sure you don't believe this yourself. Would you believe it if it was talking about Kratos of Greek mythology? If it were written in some scribe? I find you'd have a hard time.

 

[SteveB28]

First of all, the "theatrics" were for the people's benefit, not because he had to do things that way. Her also healed people with a simple touch - once when someone touch the hem of his garments.

Second - we aren't told everything that happened, just given examples.

But if you don't /can't believe then you won't, no matter what any human says. The power to make you believe is far above my paygrade, but that's ok. As long as you don't condemn me for my belief, I shall not condemn you for you unbelief. As long as there is life there is a chance for change (either way) and none of us knows the future.

I see. Do you think then, that Jesus actually healed many, many more people with his magic?

Strange though, that with exception of the bible stories, WE NEVER SEE A SINGLE RECORDED WORD FROM ANYONE AROUND AT THAT TIME!

Don't you find that odd?

 

[Celticflower]

Because I'm pretty sure you don't believe this yourself. Would you believe it if it was talking about Kratos of Greek mythology? If it were written in some scribe? I find you'd have a hard time.

You may believe or not believe in whatever you wish. I have no power to change your beliefs - whether they be in God, Kratos, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Great Pumpkin. And if you wish to believe that I don't truly believe what I say (in other words you are calling me a liar, and that is not nice at all), well, there is nothing I can do to change that either.

 

[Celticflower]

I see. Do you think then, that Jesus actually healed many, many more people with his magic?

Strange though, that with exception of the bible stories, WE NEVER SEE A SINGLE RECORDED WORD FROM ANYONE AROUND AT THAT TIME!

Don't you find that odd?

Given who was in power, their attitudes, the lack of literacy and the expense of scribes.... not really all that surprising. And we have no way of knowing what may have been lost in antiquity. There is a reason it is called "faith" and not "surety".

 

[SteveB28]

Given who was in power, their attitudes, the lack of literacy and the expense of scribes.... not really all that surprising. And we have no way of knowing what may have been lost in antiquity. There is a reason it is called "faith" and not "surety".

You must be kidding. Can I remind you who was in power at the time! The Romans! The Romans who recorded meticulously about their properties. Who had a number of historians writing busily about all kinds of happenings.

Yet not a word.

 

[paulm50]

First of all, the "theatrics" were for the people's benefit, not because he had to do things that way. Her also healed people with a simple touch - once when someone touch the hem of his garments.

Second - we aren't told everything that happened, just given examples.

But if you don't /can't believe then you won't, no matter what any human says. The power to make you believe is far above my paygrade, but that's ok. As long as you don't condemn me for my belief, I shall not condemn you for you unbelief. As long as there is life there is a chance for change (either way) and none of us knows the future.

The whole concept of miracles is to impress. A really impressive thing would be to stop all the plagues, infections, etc. To cure a colony of lepers, blind, lame, etc.

It's not that we don't believe he cured one person, evangelists around the world are doing the same all the time. That devalues the miracles Jesus performed. Once you claim all these people are fakes, you have to prove Jesus's miracles were real. The hard part is defining who healed themselves by believing they were healed, who were never really ill and the "cure", like the illness, was self generated and the real ones.

As for curing people, science performs such miracles all the time.

It would be a piece of cake for any god, from 20,000 BC to today to prove himself beyond all reasonable doubt to all the people all the time. The job has always been left to humans to do his work. And there's the Catch 22. If they really care, they shouldn't leave it to humans to do their work. I use the plural because over time there has been so many of them.

 

[Loudmouth]

Certainly I have to admit that your ignorance is the veil that cover your eyes.

What I find most interesting is that those who claim that there is no veil over their eyes still can't present evidence to support their claims. Apparently, there is no evidence to see, veil or no veil.

You think you know it all and are so obsessed with you holding the truth that you don't even want to hear other people talk about ideas different than yours.

Notice the switch in words. You go from "truth" to "idea". This is the sleight of hand. Ideas are not necessarily truths, yet you try to create a false equivalency between them.

My advice is as it follows: empty yourselves, stop being so proud and admit your ignorance and only that way the truth will become visible, and the truth is no idea, the truth, is a Person. Only when you will emtpy yourselves from the horrendous sin of pride you will see that there is something above and that your tiny limited thoughts were.

Apparently, you already followed this path and you still can't present any evidence to us.

Seems like a fool's errand to me.

 

[paulm50]

What I find most interesting is that those who claim that there is no veil over their eyes still can't present evidence to support their claims. Apparently, there is no evidence to see, veil or no veil.

It's an invisible veil, to see it. You have to believe in it.

 

[Wryetui]

The same as you would for any other eyes.

If I said that I could see a space station through a telescope, what type of evidence would you expect me to provide?



Or not believe it.

Do you believe everything that people say? If I said that I saw the the eyes of the Holy Dragon and it allowed me to see magical kingdoms, would you believe me?



When have stories in books ever been evidence that someone existed?

Do you think Harry Potter is a real person?

Are you aware that humans are able to write stories in books about people who never existed?



If you claim it is a reality, then you should be able to produce evidence that it is a reality. If it only a belief, then it isn't a reality.

I am sorry for resurrecting this thread but I jost got in my while I was reading a book that I did not explain what did I meant by "reason", and then I realized it, I talked to you about all this reason stuff while not explaining at all what did I meant by reason and perhaps the conversation went to a direction I didn't wanted without knowing it. I would explain what did I mean by reason by myself but why would I do that when another has already explained it better than me: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/05/relationship-between-faith-and-reason.html, please read it and you tell me what do you think.

 

[Ana the Ist]

People are just atheists because they don't know what God is. They have an idea of what God can be, they refute that "God" and they become atheists refuting that God. I have never met an atheist that knows theology, patristics, dogmatics, hesychasm, hamartiology, soteriology, eschatology and lots of words that are unknown to most christians out there. When I was an atheist was because I was ignorant, and I am not lying if I say most of the atheists out there are ignorants, because no matter how much you think you know, how much philosophy, how much Richard Dawkins, how much Christopher Hitchens you have read because they are as blind as you.

I don't think you were an atheist.

 

[Wryetui]

I don't think you were an atheist.

Good for you.

 

[paulm50]

I am sorry for resurrecting this thread but I jost got in my while I was reading a book that I did not explain what did I meant by "reason", and then I realized it, I talked to you about all this reason stuff while not explaining at all what did I meant by reason and perhaps the conversation went to a direction I didn't wanted without knowing it. I would explain what did I mean by reason by myself but why would I do that when another has already explained it better than me: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/05/relationship-between-faith-and-reason.html, please read it and you tell me what do you think.

To be truly faithful, one has to drop the power to reason things through. Because it might lead to another conclusion than what the bible says.

 

[Wryetui]

To be truly faithful, one has to drop the power to reason things through. Because it might lead to another conclusion than what the bible says.

That's what you got from the whole article, huh? It is no surprise, I have noticed talking with you that you always see the things as you please in order for them to make the conclusion you want so your beliefs won't be shattered.

 

[paulm50]

That's what you got from the whole article, huh? It is no surprise, I have noticed talking with you that you always see the things as you please in order for them to make the conclusion you want so your beliefs won't be shattered.

To believe in Genesis. One has to stick to the story with complete faith. Once someone starts to look at it and reason with it. It's fiction. Same with Job. And if a book starts off that wrong, why should it carry on being true.

It's a guide book to how people should've lived 1,00s of years ago. With parts that have relevance today, but only parts.

 

[Wryetui]

To believe in Genesis. One has to stick to the story with complete faith. Once someone starts to look at it and reason with it. It's fiction. Same with Job. And if a book starts off that wrong, why should it carry on being true.

It's a guide book to how people should've lived 1,00s of years ago. With parts that have relevance today, but only parts.

The same faith you have in believing the theory of evolution, a process you didn't see with your eyes but you believe the "evidence" about it, the same faith you have when you believe the theory of the Big Bang, or Dawkin's multiverse theory, can you touch the theory of the Big Bang or one of the multiverses? No, so you have to accept those just by faith, the same faith that the young earth creationists have when they attack evolutionists and their theory, don't they interpret the same data as the evolutionists? The same evidence? "Evidence" is a word in the wind, we only see in that "evidence" what we want to believe. The New Testament says that the proof for God's existence is in watching the world and how perfect it is, so everytime I watch the world I see God's work, while everytime you watch the world you see a planet, we all see what we want to see.

So allow me to believe the Genesis and the Book of Job, the Holy Synods, the Councils, the Patristic writings while you believe in the modern theories.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The same faith you have in believing the theory of evolution, a process you didn't see with your eyes but you believe the "evidence" about it, the same faith you have when you believe the theory of the Big Bang, or Dawkin's multiverse theory, can you touch the theory of the Big Bang or one of the multiverses? No, so you have to accept those just by faith, the same faith that the young earth creationists have when they attack evolutionists and their theory, don't they interpret the same data as the evolutionists? The same evidence? "Evidence" is a word in the wind, we only see in that "evidence" what we want to believe. The New Testament says that the proof for God's existence is in watching the world and how perfect it is, so everytime I watch the world I see God's work, while everytime you watch the world you see a planet, we all see what we want to see.

So allow me to believe the Genesis and the Book of Job, the Holy Synods, the Councils, the Patristic writings while you believe in the modern theories.

You don't need faith to believe that evolution is true. We have evidence that it is. You don't need faith to believe that the Big Bang theory explains the large-scale evolution of the universe. We have evidence for that.

 

[Larniavc]

That doesn't mean that there was an alien spacecraft hidden in the tail of the comet

Maybe not: but Melinda May was very definitely in a space ship in the tail of Halley's comet or my early teen dreams meant nothing.

 

[Larniavc]

This example makes me wonder about two things:

Why is it necessary for a god to spit in some dirt and make a 'mud poultice'? Surely he could have just snapped his fingers and cured the man. Why the belaboured theatrics?

And secondly, why such a limited performance of his healing 'powers'? From what I remember of the bible stories, Jesus cures the blindness, lameness and leprosy of what, maybe 10 or 20 people? Why not cure all the people who were ailing? What did those few do to warrant the preferential treatment? Did his magic run out after 20 patients? Had those few slipped him a few shekels beforehand?

Maybe he only memorised Cure Blindness and Heal a few times.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Good for you.

It's also good for atheism.

 

[bhsmte]

The same faith you have in believing the theory of evolution, a process you didn't see with your eyes but you believe the "evidence" about it, the same faith you have when you believe the theory of the Big Bang, or Dawkin's multiverse theory, can you touch the theory of the Big Bang or one of the multiverses? No, so you have to accept those just by faith, the same faith that the young earth creationists have when they attack evolutionists and their theory, don't they interpret the same data as the evolutionists? The same evidence? "Evidence" is a word in the wind, we only see in that "evidence" what we want to believe. The New Testament says that the proof for God's existence is in watching the world and how perfect it is, so everytime I watch the world I see God's work, while everytime you watch the world you see a planet, we all see what we want to see.

So allow me to believe the Genesis and the Book of Job, the Holy Synods, the Councils, the Patristic writings while you believe in the modern theories.

Faith in evolution and the big bang?

Lame argument!