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No slave race: no evolution

thaumaturgy

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Hmm, interesting. Thankfully the Christian faith and the Bible was never used to justify slavery or the evil evolutionists would have had their way and established slave-states!

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.

"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

"The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond

"If we apply sola scriptura to slavery, I'm afraid the abolitionists are on relatively weak ground. Nowhere is slavery in the Bible lambasted as an oppressive and evil institution: Vaughn Roste, United Church of Canada staff

(SOURCES)

So please, let's not use this insulting line of reasoning that somehow "evolution" leads to "slavery". It's a ridiculous and thinly veiled attack and argumentum ad absurdum.

Please, dial down the rhetoric, True_blue. And in the meantime, please do us a favor and read your bible.

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


The Bible,rightly or wrongly quoted or abused, has lent more than it's fair share in the idealogical war to establish "slave races", .
 
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Holy Roller

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The Bible,rightly or wrongly quoted or abused, has lent more than it's fair share in the idealogical war to establish "slave races", .

I disagree with this, of course. In fact, the Bible was bourne out of slavery. Egyptian slavery.
 
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AV1611VET

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"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.
Ya --- and Abraham Lincoln disagreed, and God broke the tie. So for all you people out there who side with Jefferson Davis on what the Bible [supposedly] says, Thaumaturgy --- there's an Abraham Lincoln, and God to break the tie.
 
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Naraoia

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I have not heard before that Neanderthals were slow breeders. What evidence is this based on?
Hmm, I managed to dig up this article. I'm not sure the reasoning convinces me just from reading a press release. I'm also quite certain I've seen another article about something similar but I can't remember where.
 
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Bombila

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I have not heard before that Neanderthals were slow breeders. What evidence is this based on? Also, you cannot deny that Neanderthals and modern humans were in direct competition for the limited resources available in Eurasia at the time. That may not be the entire answer to their extinction, but it surely must be part of it.

Sorry, when I said 'competition', I was thinking of the direct 'we killed them off' meme that has been a feature of previous extinction argument, when there is no evidence early humans and Neanderthals killing each other - certainly it could have happened occasionally.

Yes, you are right that they were in direct competition for limited resources which also could have contributed to Neanderthal extinction, given they didn't turn to hunting small game and fish, as far as we know. However, we now know they killed seals, and ate some shellfish. It's hard to imagine coastal people being unable to find any food at any point in recent pre-history. And yes, there are indications in Neanderthal teeth (and likely contemporary Hs, if they were examined) of starvation intervals, which I would guess might be seasonal - winters may have been very hungry times. And Neanderthals don't seem to have consumed much plant food, which is certainly a disadvantage, but not attributable to direct competition. No humans of the period are known to have stored food, although given how little we really know, they may have.

So we have two populations, both faced with severe conditions, and neither is technologically very advanced over the other, with the major exception of what the women did. There is general understanding that the H.sap. women of the period did gather plant food and likely hunted small game. There is evidence Neanderthal women participated in hunting large mammals along with the men, which makes sense if they weren't eating plant material or small game or fish very often. That is a high risk occupation that coupled with the normal risks of childbearing may have meant Neanderthal women were in even shorter supply than their counterparts.

Add to that a poorer diet, and the possibly higher caloric intake needed for Neanderthal women to successfully bear a child and nurse it, we may be looking at a successful birth rate just a little bit lower than that of our direct ancestors. Given that both populations were stressed at the time, that slightly lower successful birth rate may have been enough to cause extinction.

Caveat: I am not a paleoanthropologist or anything like it; I just find this subject interesting and have done a lot of reading over the years.

Here's where I toss in my entirely personal thoughts, not backed by citation. I see where researchers are coming from with the resource competition theories, but I don't entirely buy it. The human populations were small, and the territory was huge. There was coastal occupation. If game was scarce, it was scarce for everyone, and there is no research evidence I've seen that both populations frequently were anywhere near each other, therefore it doesn't seem likely they were in competition for the same animals.

Then there's coastal territory. Some Neanderthals are now known to have eaten shellfish and sea mammals (seal and dolphin). The seals may have been a seasonal hunt during mating and whelping, when they are easy to catch. Dolphins, I dunno how you'd catch them without at least a raft. Shellfish are available in abundance except when buried under ice.

So I personally don't think resource competition was a major contributing factor. I think a failure to diversify to small game, fish and plant food was possibly a big contributor, and I think a slightly lower successful birthrate put the nail in the coffin. They simply didn't manage to replace themselves fast enough.


I can't find the original article I read on birth rate, but these articles talk about nutrition and childbearing:

Abstract ( I can't access the paper) re Neanderthals and early humans:

"...Evidence from stable isotopes, faunal remains, and the paleopathology of human skeletons suggest that Neandertals consumed a low diversity diet centered on large and medium-sized terrestrial herbivores. In contrast, populations of early AMHS consumed a slightly more diversified diet. The effect of this dietary shift would have resulted in greater diversity of essential nutrient intake and lower maternal and fetal-to-infant mortality, which in turn would have sparked population increases during the early phases of occupation of the European continent by populations of AMHS. Greater diversity of essential nutrient intake by early populations of AMHS may have been one factor that led to the replacement of Neandertals in Europe during OIS 3."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=e295e183be85da01442cc19fe4aabead

This paper on brain growth:

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/37/13764.full

Sciencedaily article covers similar material:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070218141435.htm

Article in Nat Geo includes some discussion of Neanderthal birth rate:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/09/080908-neanderthal-brain.html?source=rss
 
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keith99

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You point out the very basic misunderstanding of evolution held by most creationists.

Competition is only for a niche, not between all beings. One species contributes to the extenction of another when they compete for the same niche. Humans seem to have been better suited for a growing niche. They beat out others competing for it, they had little or no effect on those staying with the old niche.

Hi True_Blue :wave:

You have some very common misunderstandings about evolution. Hominid evolution was not just about brain size. Early hominds, in fact, had only slightly larger brains than other apes of the time. Instead, they evolved bipedal locomotion. This was to exploit the growing African savannas. This begs the question, if monkeys stayed in the trees of the jungle, and early hominids evolved to exploit a different ecological niche, how could they be in competition with each other? Answer... they were not.

Your idea about a slave race, was answered by others who pointed out Neanderthals were about as smart as modern humans. The evidence suggests they were in direct competition with modern humans (not monkeys), and lost out to them.

EDIT:

I just thought of a reduction to absurdity. If we are decended from sea life are there still fish?
 
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thaumaturgy

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Ya --- and Abraham Lincoln disagreed, and God broke the tie. So for all you people out there who side with Jefferson Davis on what the Bible [supposedly] says, Thaumaturgy --- there's an Abraham Lincoln, and God to break the tie.

Are you intentionally missing the point or did you not get it???

I SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT THE BIBLE COULD HAVE BEEN ABUSED TO SUPPORT SLAVERY.

(Now personally I think the bible has a really bad track record on speaking out against slavery, but that isn't the point here.)

Please, READ it next time.

My point, which I'll spell out for some of our lesser intellects is: Don't try hinting at this "evolution = pro-slavery" garbage argument. It isn't any more reasonable than a Bible necessarily = pro-slavery argument (however, the Bible, obviously, is usually not overtly against slavery and even teaches how to treat slaves without oprobrium).

The fact still stands: "Some Christians used the Bible to justify Slavery". End of Story. You may disagree with them, I certainly do, most normal humans do. But the fact remains, Christians have used the Bible to justify Slavery.

End. Of. Story.
 
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Vene

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Funny, you try your stupid "evolution = pro-slavery" sub-rosa type argument but you can't quite get the point.

Funny that. See my post above.
Thaum, should we tell them that evolution driven biology doesn't even recognize race as a valid concept? Should we tell them that science doesn't even try to weigh in on moral issues (and slavery is a moral issue)? Or should we just point and laugh?
 
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thaumaturgy

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Thaum, should we tell them that evolution driven biology doesn't even recognize race as a valid concept? Should we tell them that science doesn't even try to weigh in on moral issues (and slavery is a moral issue)? Or should we just point and laugh?

I'm feeling quite aggressive today, I'll settle for pointing and screaming! :)

Honestly when I see this type of argument it annoys me greatly. As you say "race" and moral issues are not part of biology. It is what it is.

True_Blue, the legal-trained officer of a biotech firm posts a pure and simple StrawMan argument which is little more than a veiled ad hominem of some vague sort and then procedes to build a debate around it which seems to indicate an evolution = pro-slavery, anti-evolution = anti-slavery false dichotomy.

How many logic errors can one fit in a single OP?

(Oh and by-the-way, I was wrong in castigating Holy Roller he wasn't the one who promulgated this silly argument, but he certainly missed the point I was making).
 
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Naraoia

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Maybe we can fish up Chordate's chemistry challenge again (at least, I think it was Chordate's). That seems to make him change the subject real fast.
IIRC it was TemperateSeaIsland if you mean the one where he was supposed to predict the proportion of different forms of [I don't know which ringed organic thingy] formed in a reaction.
 
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Vene

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Thanks, that is what I'm talking about. Now I just have to find it.

Edit: And here it is.
You keep on saying this and people keep on telling you that you are wrong. So lets see how good your probability model is.

NITRATION.jpg


Can you use your model to predict the ratios of A, B and C formed in the above reaction.

EDIT there seems to be a problem with my photobucket skills as the wrong image is being linked. Anyway on the arrow above there should be Nitric acid( HNO3) and Sulphuric acid (H2SO4). I'll try to get the right one up shortly.

OK the right image is up, strange I didnt do anything!??
 
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plindboe

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And remember kiddies, the originator of this OP runs a biotech company.

When I read posts like his I'd surprised if he would be able to put on his own pants in the morning. It's amazing how someone who's able to tackle such a demanding career can be so incredibly unreasonable and, to be blunt, just plain dumb, when talking about areas outside of his expertise.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with ignorance. But taking reason, throwing it onto the ground and trampling on it, while thinking you're the world's greatest expert on something you know nothing about, is just shameful.

Peter
 
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AV1611VET

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End. Of. Story.
I'll let it go at this, Thaumaturgy; but for the record, I normally take people to task who say junk like this ---
(however, the Bible ... even teaches how to treat slaves without oprobrium).
--- by getting them to admit that the word "slave" is not used in any of those passages. Then when they try to weasel out of it by saying that's the OT word for "slavery", or the word "slavery" came much later, I point out that it's not their call to re-write the Bible, and that their bias is showing.

In short, by making them stick to Kingjamesese, I can cleary show that anyone who used the Bible to support slavery did so in spite of the Bible, not in respect to the Bible.

But again, I'll honor your "End.Of.Story" assessment --- ;)
 
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