NO scriptural basis for co-mediatrix

[simonthezealot]

CCC states-
968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." [LG 61] [494]
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." [LG 62] [149, 501, 1370]
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men... flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." [LG 60] "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." [LG 62] [2008, 1545, 308]

 

[E.C.]

Oddly enough, the 'logic' fits within scholastic thought.

 

[simonthezealot]

Oddly enough, the 'logic' fits within scholastic thought.

This part included? Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation
How so?

 

[E.C.]

This part included? Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation
How so?

That in and off itself could be a separate topic.

As for the topic at hand, being the whole "Co-Mediatrix" topic, I don't know how this fits within the teaching because...

1) "Co-Mediatrix" is something not believed, or taught within the Orthodox Church. Thus begging the question, "Why should I care"?
2) Not my Church, not my fight.
3) I'm not a subscriber of scholasticism. Perhaps asking someone who is would be best for an answer.

 

[simonthezealot]

That in and off itself could be a separate topic.

As for the topic at hand, being the whole "Co-Mediatrix" topic, I don't know how this fits within the teaching because...

1) "Co-Mediatrix" is something not believed, or taught within the Orthodox Church. Thus begging the question, "Why should I care"?
2) Not my Church, not my fight.
3) I'm not a subscriber of scholasticism. Perhaps asking someone who is would be best for an answer.

Got a lil sidetracked...Sorry, i was commenting on the catechism as opposed to the co-mediatrix aspect.

 

[MrPolo]

The terms are "co-redemptrix" and "mediatrix." Not "co-mediatrix." The prefix "co" should be understood as "with", as in Mary's role in the plan of salvation as she cooperated at the Annunciation, to suffering with Christ as prophecized by Simeon (Lk 2:34-35)....etc...etc...lot of Eve typology involved too. It is a detailed, but rich subject.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary suffered grief that she saw her first-born son slain not for anything He had ever done but for sinful men. Mary did not suffer as Christ suffered.

 

[narnia59]

Mary suffered grief that she saw her first-born son slain not for anything He had ever done but for sinful men. Mary did not suffer as Christ suffered.

Simeon united the sufferings of Mary to those of Christ when he prophesied that a sword would pierce her soul "also". "Also" -- along with. "Co". The concept of our suffering uniting with that of Christ for the sake of the body of Christ is explored and affirmed by Paul in his writings.

And while her suffering was indeed not the same, how many mothers do you know who would not choose to take the place of their child if they could? The agony for any mother to witness such an event for her child cannot be minimized.

 

[MrPolo]

The concept of our suffering uniting with that of Christ for the sake of the body of Christ is explored and affirmed by Paul in his writings.

That's right. At the heart of Christ's suffering is our participation with Christ.

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed​

We all participate in Christ's suffering as He lives in us. Mary shares this suffering in a most intimate, special way, as Simeon prophesized.

 

[MamaZ]

Simeon united the sufferings of Mary to those of Christ when he prophesied that a sword would pierce her soul "also". "Also" -- along with. "Co". The concept of our suffering uniting with that of Christ for the sake of the body of Christ is explored and affirmed by Paul in his writings.

And while her suffering was indeed not the same, how many mothers do you know who would not choose to take the place of their child if they could? The agony for any mother to witness such an event for her child cannot be minimized.

Every mother who looses her child due to an unforseen event or a long lingering illness suffers with them and grieves endless for them. This does not make them co anything..

 

[MamaZ]

Those in Christ suffer in the flesh but reap with Joy in the Spirit knowing that all our suffering and tears shall be turned to Joy..

 

[lionroar0]

Lumen Gentium 60-62


60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all".(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
61. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was in this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)




Foot note 298 1 Tim. 2, 5-6.


Supplementary notes Chapter VIII


(15) Cfr. Kleutgen, textus reformstus De mysterio Verbi incarnati, cap. IV: Mansi 53, 290. cfr. S. Andreas Cret., In nat. Mariac, sermo 4: PG 97, 865 A. - S. Germanus Constantinop., In annunt. Deiparae: PG 98, 321 BC. In dorm. Deiparae, III: col. 361 D. S. Io. Damascenus, In dorm. B. V. Mariae, Hom. 1, 8: PG 96, 712 BC-713 A.

(16) Cfr. Leo XIII, Litt. Encycl. Adiutricem populi, 5 sept. 1895: ASS 15 (1895-96), p. 303. - S. Pius X, Litt. Encycl. Ad diem illum, 2 febr. 1904: Acta, I, p. 154- Denz. 1978 a (3370) . Pius XI, Litt. Encycl. Miserentissimus, 8 maii 1928: AAS 20 (1928) p. 178. Pius XII, Nuntius Radioph., 13 maii 1946: AAS 38 (1946) p. 266.

(17) S. Ambrosius, Epist. 63: PL 16, 1218.

It's going to take a while to go though all of these. I will post more as I find it.

Cfr. Leo XIII, Litt. Encycl. Adiutricem populi, 5 sept. 1895: ASS 15 (1895-96), p. 303

ADIUTRICEM

5. But in view of the importance and the difficulty of such an undertaking, and the necessity of perseverance in the practice of any virtue, it is well to recall the Apostle's apt counsel: "Be instant in prayer"'[1] -counsel all the more to the point because an auspicious beginning of the enterprise will supply the best inducement to perseverance in prayer. Next October, therefore, if you and your people devoutly spend the whole month with Us in praying assiduously to the Virgin Mother of God through her Rosary and the other customary devotions, nothing could do more to further this project or be more pleasing to Us. We have the best reasons for entrusting Our plans and Our aspirations to her protection and the highest hopes of seeing them realized.

1. Col. 4:2.

S. Ambrosius, Epist. 63: PL 16, 1218.

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 63 (Ambrose)

16. And what is the intention of the Scripture which teaches us that Peter fasted, and that the revelation concerning the baptism of Gentiles was made to him when fasting and praying, Acts 10:10 except to show that the Saints themselves advance when they fast. Finally, Moses received the Law when he was fasting; Exodus 34:28 and so Peter when fasting was taught the grace of the New Testament. Daniel too by virtue of his fast stopped the mouths of the lions and saw the events of future times. Daniel vi.-vii And what safety can there be for us unless we wash away our sins by fasting, since Scripture says that fasting and alms do away sin? Tobit 12:8-9

 

[bbbbbbb]

I always enjoy doublespeak, especially Christian doublespeak. There is only one mediator between God and mankind, but there is another (Mary) too. As a matter of plain fact, anyone who enters vicariously into Christ's sufferings then becomes, logically, a mediator, as well. Even as Christians, both alive and dead, are believed to intercede for others, even so we are all mediators. However, we are not mediators at all because Christ is the only mediator between God and mankind, but there is also another (Mary) . . .

and on and on and on and on.

 

[lionroar0]

I always enjoy doublespeak, especially Christian doublespeak. There is only one mediator between God and mankind, but there is another (Mary) too. As a matter of plain fact, anyone who enters vicariously into Christ's sufferings then becomes, logically, a mediator, as well. Even as Christians, both alive and dead, are believed to intercede for others, even so we are all mediators. However, we are not mediators at all because Christ is the only mediator between God and mankind, but there is also another (Mary) . . .

and on and on and on and on.

Yes I enjoy double speak also. Specially when Catholics say that there is only one mediator and that mediator is Jesus Christ.

I also enjoy non-Catholic double double speak when they say that there is only one mediator between God and man and that mediator being Jesus but then they mediate to God for the conversion of others and other matters.

There must be a logical explanation for this seeming hypocrisy right???

 

[MamaZ]

LOL.. We have that close of a realtionship with the Father that we can boldy go to His throne in time of need, pain and joy.. But there is only one that mediates between us and the Father and that is Christ our Risen King.

 

[lionroar0]

LOL.. We have that close of a realtionship with the Father that we can boldy go to His throne in time of need, pain and joy.. But there is only one that mediates between us and the Father and that is Christ our Risen King.

So you can't pray for anybody or with any one?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Though the Fifth Marian Dogma has not been proclaimed, I pray for it's acceptance. Although the titles of Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix (of All Graces) and Advocate are common in Catholic Mariology, it is still permissible to dispute them until they are proclaimed as dogma. If they are proclaimed as "de fide" ("of the faith"), then if you deny them, you aren't Catholic. It would be like saying "I'm Catholic but I don't believe Jesus is God." -- it would be a contradiction because Catholics believe Jesus is God. But for now, and perhaps forever, this topic is subject to debate within the Catholic Church.

Mostly, however, it is not debate but rather education that is necessary. Some people, especially Protestants, seek to minimize the role of Mary. One post on here referred to Mary as "just an incubator" for Jesus. Would you refer to your own mother as "just an incubator" for you? Certainly, that is highly offensive for any woman, especially the Mother of God. So there is much attempt at a severe minimization of the role of Mary by Protestants, she is almost totally ignored by many of them (except High Church Anglicans and Lutherans).

Mary must be understood as the Mother of the Church -- she is the first born of the Church and the first to be saved by Christ in the New Covenant. She must be understood as the ideal Christian, the Christian extraordinaire, after Christ Himself. Mary is the Mother of the Church and our Mother, she is one of us raised to perfection.

To be a Christian is to be a Mediator and Advocate (to pray for others) and to be a Co-Redeemer (to help save others). Mary is explicitly given these titles in recognition of her unique role in the economy of salvation. Christ is the sole mediator between God and Man but we are all mediators because we pray for each other -- we are mediators with God through Christ for others. Mary has a unique role as the highest and most fervent mediator and advocate for our salvation before Christ her Son.

More specifically, Mary is called the "Mediatrix of All Graces". Christ came to the world through Mary. Christ continues to come to the world through Mary. God loves to work through creatures, He doesn't need angels to be His messengers but He uses them, He certainly doesn't need us to be His Body but He uses us. God doesn't need to work through Mary, but He does. God even gives men and women participation in the act of Creation through childbirth and He gives us a chance to participate in the salvation of the world. This is done most fully through Mary as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix.

I would also like to speak to Co-Redemptrix, even though it is adjunct to this topic. This term repulses most Protestants. However, if we understand it as above, that we all are co-reedemers with Christ and Mary is the paramount Co-Redemptrix, then it makes sense. There is nothing in the term "Co-Redemptrix" that makes Mary a separate savior with Christ, certainly this is not what we believe as Catholics. Mary helps redeem the world with Christ, through Christ, and because of Christ -- she has never done anything without God, She is His perfect handmaid. Certainly, Mary as a human does not participate in our salvation in an equal way with Christ as the God-Man. The prefix "co-" does not imply equality, simply "with".

Mary participates in a unique way in our salvation because she consented to bear the Savior of the World. But she also continues to bring Christ to the world and to lead people to Christ. Mary also suffered in a unique way with Christ on the cross as we all seek to unite our sufferings with the Crucified One.

Paul constantly preached the Cross. He said, "We preach Christ crucified." (1Cor 1:23) and he also explained how he was participating with the suffering of Christ for the salvation of the world:

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" -- Col 1:24

Truly, nothing was lacking in Christ's suffering. The Catholic Church teaches that Christ poured out all His Blood when even one drop would have been more than sufficient to atone for all the sins of the world -- He poured out a superabundance of grace for the world. But it is the job of Christians to continue that work by being agents of grace for the world and to continue to suffer for the Gospel and the salvation of the world. Our suffering has purpose and merit when it is offered up to God as a form of participation of Christ's suffering on the Cross.

Think of the martyrs who have died for the love of Christ. Sometimes those persecutors think they are making a mockery of Christ and a warning to Christians by crucifying Christians. But how much more explicit of conjoining with Christ on the cross can you get than being crucified yourself for Christ? It is truly beautiful. We must all be crucified with Christ, we must all suffer and die for the salvation of the world. Only if we die with Christ, can we be raised with Christ.

I support the proclamation of the Fifth Marian Dogma because it not only recognizes our Blessed Mother's unique role in salvation and we believe she will be able to pour out God's grace even more abundantly if this is proclaimed, but more importantly, because it reminds us that all of us are responsible not only for the salvation of our own soul but that of the world. So pray for the world and suffer for the world, that we all may be saved in Christ.

 

[Ave Maria]

I always enjoy doublespeak, especially Christian doublespeak. There is only one mediator between God and mankind, but there is another (Mary) too. As a matter of plain fact, anyone who enters vicariously into Christ's sufferings then becomes, logically, a mediator, as well. Even as Christians, both alive and dead, are believed to intercede for others, even so we are all mediators. However, we are not mediators at all because Christ is the only mediator between God and mankind, but there is also another (Mary) . . .

and on and on and on and on.

Are you accusing Catholics of "doublespeak"?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

lionroar0 and pilgrimToChrist,
I appreciate both of your posts, the statements and detailed explanation were very helpful for me to understand some RCC beliefs a little more accurately.


LDG

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

lionroar0 and pilgrimToChrist,
I appreciate both of your posts, the statements and detailed explanation were very helpful for me to understand some RCC beliefs a little more accurately.


LDG

Thank you here and also for your positive personal note.

People may not agree with the Catholic teachings, but at least they should understand them.

In Christ,
Pilgrim