"No Salvation Outside the Church"

[Spike511]

This is a mixed topic, per se. As it could go both here and the Catholic forums.

Backround: I was born a Lutheran and have been considering converting to the Catholic Church. Its a hard decision, and im really confused on what to do. This might explain why im asking this question.

After some googling, I pulled up what I understand as the Catholic belief in "No Salvation Outside the Church". If I interpret this correctly...does that mean Lutherans will be dammed?

I dont want to be critisized for where I put this...I figured this was the best place as I am a Lutheran and would like Lutheran answers. I'm just scared and confused...even though I've been saved per se, will I be dammed because I'm a Lutheran?

--
Eric

 

[lux et lex]

This is something I struggled with growing up. My dad and his family are Catholic and my mom and hers are Lutheran. I was raised Lutheran. I remember being a little kid and having my grandpa on my dad's side to "enjoy your family here on earth because they won't be coming to heaven with you". I don't have much to add, but it's something I've thought about too.

 

[LilLamb219]

What is the Church? There is but one Church and that is the body of Christ. All believers belong to the body of Christ. If you're a believer, than you shall not be damned.

 

[Spike511]

What is the Church? There is but one Church and that is the body of Christ. All believers belong to the body of Christ. If you're a believer, than you shall not be damned.

See, the Catholics believe that their church is the only body of christ.

So in one corner Catholics are taunting me to join them or burn...and then I have Lutherans to which I was born..

--
Eric

 

[LilLamb219]

Why would you listen to a group who is trying to guilt you into changing? Look at the doctrine instead. Lutherans believe that Christ alone is sufficient for salvation...it is finished. Don't let anyone tell you you'll burn in hell even though you are a believer. Turn to God's Word to see for yourself the truth.

 

[Spike511]

yes, but their citing scripture where it says the Catholic church is his church...

i'll try and find the website...

--
Eric

 

[LutheranandLonely]

This is a mixed topic, per se. As it could go both here and the Catholic forums.

Backround: I was born a Lutheran and have been considering converting to the Catholic Church. Its a hard decision, and im really confused on what to do. This might explain why im asking this question.

After some googling, I pulled up what I understand as the Catholic belief in "No Salvation Outside the Church". If I interpret this correctly...does that mean Lutherans will be dammed?

I dont want to be critisized for where I put this...I figured this was the best place as I am a Lutheran and would like Lutheran answers. I'm just scared and confused...even though I've been saved per se, will I be dammed because I'm a Lutheran?

--
Eric

You will first have to define what you understand "Church" to be. There is a Roman understanding and a Lutheran understanding. Give your understanding and then we can discuss your opening question.

 

[Spike511]

You will first have to define what you understand "Church" to be. There is a Roman understanding and a Lutheran understanding. Give your understanding and then we can discuss your opening question.

...I dont really know. The point is...one of us is right. Either the Romans or Lutherans...I dont know if I really want to risk it....

I dont know, I'm just scared and confused...

--
Eric

 

[JCFantasy23]

...I dont really know. The point is...one of us is right. Either the Romans or Lutherans...I dont know if I really want to risk it....

I dont know, I'm just scared and confused...

--
Eric

Both denominations are right with the most important thing - Jesus is our savior. This is what saves Christians, and both believe this.

 

[Forscher]

I studied in Catholic schools from kindergarten until highschool.
I remember the religion teachers taught us that Catholics believe salvation extends to non-Catholics, even to non-Christians, even though the salvation is not as "perfect" as it should be when they were Catholics.

I think "no salvation outside church" is already an expired doctrine in the Catholic church.

As for converting to Catholic church, in my opinion, in a Lutheran church, I could get all the things I love about Catholic church (traditions, lithurgy, sacraments) without actually going too far from the Gospel.

Edit: just found this link about Catholic's view on non-Catholic Christians
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ecree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

 

[Spike511]

Alright.

Firstly, after reading my other post in the Catholic subsection...apparently being baptised is an indirect means of being unified with the Catholic Church. go figure...but thats their view, figured i'd let you know. Regardless, they failed to site scripture from the actual bible, but merely from their Catheicism (sp?)....which sort of keyed me off...

Secondly, after praying about it last night and to talking to some protestant friends of mine...i've decided to remain a Lutheran, for several reasons. Again, figured i'd let you know.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[LilLamb219]

Alright.

Firstly, after reading my other post in the Catholic subsection...apparently being baptised is an indirect means of being unified with the Catholic Church. go figure...but thats their view, figured i'd let you know. Regardless, they failed to site scripture from the actual bible, but merely from their Catheicism (sp?)....which sort of keyed me off...

Secondly, after praying about it last night and to talking to some protestant friends of mine...i've decided to remain a Lutheran, for several reasons. Again, figured i'd let you know.

Thanks,
Eric

Fear not

It's good to work through these things that give us doubt because we become stronger because of them in the end.

 

[DaRev]

Lutherans would most certainly agree with the statement "Outside of the Church there is no salvation." The Church is defined as all true believers in Christ. The Scriptures do indeed teach us that outside of faith in Christ there is no salvation. "No one comes to the Father except through Me." "There is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved." etc...

When it comes to deniminations, one must look at their formal and material principles. The formal principle of the Confessional Lutheran church is 'sola scriptura', Scripture alone. All of our doctrines and practices are normed by the inspired, inerrant word of God. In the Roman Catholic church it's 'Tradition, Scripture, the Papacy, and human reason'. And they place much more emphasis on their Traditions and the Papacy than on Scripture. The material principle of the Confessional Lutheran Church is 'we are justified by grace alone through faith alone on account of the work and merits of Christ alone.' The material principle of the RCC is that we are justified by a combination of faith and works. They maintain that man is inherently good and seeks a reunification with God, and must strive to achieve this through a variety of obligatory means.

It comes down to a simple question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ, God the Son, through His atoning work upon the cross, achieved the full justification of mankind? Or do you believe that the work of God the Son was not sufficient and that we need to supplement His work with our own merits?

 

[Spike511]

Lutherans would most certainly agree with the statement "Outside of the Church there is no salvation." The Church is defined as all true believers in Christ. The Scriptures do indeed teach us that outside of faith in Christ there is no salvation. "No one comes to the Father except through Me." "There is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved." etc...

When it comes to deniminations, one must look at their formal and material principles. The formal principle of the Confessional Lutheran church is 'sola scriptura', Scripture alone. All of our doctrines and practices are normed by the inspired, inerrant word of God. In the Roman Catholic church it's 'Tradition, Scripture, the Papacy, and human reason'. And they place much more emphasis on their Traditions and the Papacy than on Scripture. The material principle of the Confessional Lutheran Church is 'we are justified by grace alone through faith alone on account of the work and merits of Christ alone.' The material principle of the RCC is that we are justified by a combination of faith and works. They maintain that man is inherently good and seeks a reunification with God, and must strive to achieve this through a variety of obligatory means.

It comes down to a simple question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ, God the Son, through His atoning work upon the cross, achieved the full justification of mankind? Or do you believe that the work of God the Son was not sufficient and that we need to supplement His work with our own merits?

Well, in a perfect world if he had gained the support of the entire earths populus, then he would have achieved the full justification of man kind.

However, realistically, yes, he's achieved full justification.

--
Eric

 

[BoC]

Well, in a perfect world if he had gained the support of the entire earths populus, then he would have achieved the full justification of man kind.

However, realistically, yes, he's achieved full justification.

--
Eric

God doesn't need our support and He did justify the whole world. Some just choose to ignore Him.

 

[filosofer]

Well, in a perfect world if he had gained the support of the entire earths populus, then he would have achieved the full justification of man kind.

However, realistically, yes, he's achieved full justification.

--
Eric

It seems like you have confused two terms: justification and salvation. By what Jesus Christ has done, he has justified the entire world (1 John 2:2). Justification happened once on the cross; we call that objective justification. The delivery of that justification is done through the Word and Sacraments (Baptism and Lord's Supper). When someone believes that message, then the person is saved; we call that subjective justification. God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, not all will be saved because they reject what the Holy Spirit works.

 

[Spike511]

It seems like you have confused two terms: justification and salvation. By what Jesus Christ has done, he has justified the entire world (1 John 2:2). Justification happened once on the cross; we call that objective justification. The delivery of that justification is done through the Word and Sacraments (Baptism and Lord's Supper). When someone believes that message, then the person is saved; we call that subjective justification. God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, not all will be saved because they reject what the Holy Spirit works.

Ah! Yes, I was confused then.

--
Eric

 

[Radiata]

I never really understood what my pastor was talking about before. Thanks filo.

Anyway, here's something else. My close friend was raised Catholic, but right now (through a very long story) he is an intern at baptist church and is planning on going into ministry next year. I went to his church last Sunday and he told me something I wasn't very familiar with. He says that the RCC teaches that salvation is a co-work through both Jesus and Mary, and that Mary has an essential role in the forgiveness of sins. If that's true, I don't know if they have the salvation that is only given through Christ. Has anyone else heard of this?

 

[filosofer]

In the RC Catechism there is a statement that Mary is co-redemptrix. How far that is pushed is up for debate. Most of my friends who are RCC reject that notion.

 

[DaRev]

I never really understood what my pastor was talking about before. Thanks filo.

Anyway, here's something else. My close friend was raised Catholic, but right now (through a very long story) he is an intern at baptist church and is planning on going into ministry next year. I went to his church last Sunday and he told me something I wasn't very familiar with. He says that the RCC teaches that salvation is a co-work through both Jesus and Mary, and that Mary has an essential role in the forgiveness of sins. If that's true, I don't know if they have the salvation that is only given through Christ. Has anyone else heard of this?

In the RC Catechism there is a statement that Mary is co-redemptrix. How far that is pushed is up for debate. Most of my friends who are RCC reject that notion.

Part of that comes from the RCC notion that Mary had to agree to allow herself to be the Mother of Jesus. Thus, the birth of Christ was more Mary's doing than God's.