No Rapture until Judgement Day

[1Tonne]

NOTE: I am premillennialist, but I do not believe in a pre trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. The bible does not even say that there is a pre, mid or post trib rapture. So, we go through the tribulation and then the world continues for at least another 1000 years afterwards.
Also, I am not stuck on the tribulation being just at the time of the Antichrist. Many believers have been through tribulation through the ages.

So here goes:
I believe that there is only one rapture and that is on the Day of Judgement. Jesus even said this.
We know that the last day is the Day of Judgement and Jesus said that He will raise all believers up on this day as well as all non-believers.
Jesus said "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” So, believers are raised up on the last day.
Now here is the verse for the unbelievers being raised at the same time. John 12:48 says “The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.” So, unbelievers are also raised on the last day to give an account. The Last Day is the Great Day of the Lord, or as many refer to it as, Judgement Day. This is the day that we will all be raised. Every believer and non-believer raised.

So, now you're asking, "Who are the saints that come back and reign with Jesus for 1000 years."
Before I answer this, I want to show you something that you may have read before but never really took note of it.
We know that Jesus judges the world. So, Jesus judges everyone. But in Matthew 19:28 Jesus gave the disciples authority to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So, they will be giving thrones and they will sit on the thrones.
Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Please just remember this as it will make sense later.)

Now let's look at who comes back to reign with Christ for 1000 years. Let's look at Rev 20:4.
It says "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So, these special believers are the ones who give their lives for the testimony of Christ during the time of the beast. Revelation 4 continues saying “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.” So, it is only the martyrs who are raised and no one else. It is not all believers. The rest of the believers and non-believers are not raised until after the 1000 years are up. So, they get raised as Jesus said, "on the last day".

Now, if you look at the beginning of verse 4, you will notice that there are several Judges who judge the martyrs. This is not Jesus as there are more than one. “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.” The reason, I believe that there are several judges, is because this is the disciples judging the Jewish people who gave their lives for the testimony of Jesus.

So, let’s see what Revelation says about where the martyrs come from and who they are.
In Rev 6:11 it describes the martyrs. Each of them was given a white robe and they had to wait until the number of them was completed.
“When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.”
We can identify the martyrs because they were given white robes. White robes means they were a martyr.

Then in Rev 7:4-8 as John is having a vision, it describes how an angel tells him the number of people who are to be sealed/martyred (the number to be completed as stated in Rev 6:11) and he hears where they come from. The angel puts Gods seal on these people’s heads. John does not see them at this point, he only hears as the angel tell him the number. The angel describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. Most people stop reading here at verse 8 and then believe John has a new vision in verse 9. But I believe we are meant to continue reading as it is all a part of one vision. If we continue reading further, John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. He also describes them. So, verses 4-8 describes what and angel tells him but then in verses 9-17 John describes what he sees. He sees an amazing crowd, so massive that he could not count them, and they were wearing white robes. Imagine seeing 144,000 people. It would seem impossible to count. These people came from all over the world. Now before WW2, the Jewish people were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but all the long, they kept their identity. Then Israel, the country, was formed in 1948 and the Jewish people started to return. Thus, the wording, “of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues”. You will also notice in verse 9, that they are the same people who were given the white robes.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …….. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." So, the martyrs are the 144,000 who are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Hence the reason why in Revelation 20:4, it had several Judges. The disciples were on their thrones, judging people from Israel.

Issues with this understanding
1. I am not 100% sure if the 144,000 are specifically Jewish or if they are those that are martyred and believed in Him and obeyed Him.
Romans 2:28-29 says, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God."
I guess one day we will find out if it is specifically Jewish. It does say in Rev 3:4-5 that some people from Sardis which is in Turkey, were given white robes too. (White robes were given to the martyrs)
So, though the wording does say from the 12 tribes of Israel, I would not necessarily rule out non-Jewish people who believe and were martyred.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

NOTE: I am premillennialist, but I do not believe in a pre trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. The bible does not even say that there is a pre, mid or post trib rapture. So, we go through the tribulation and then the world continues for at least another 1000 years afterwards.
Also, I am not stuck on the tribulation being just at the time of the Antichrist. Many believers have been through tribulation through the ages.

So here goes:
I believe that there is only one rapture and that is on the Day of Judgement. Jesus even said this.
We know that the last day is the Day of Judgement and Jesus said that He will raise all believers up on this day as well as all non-believers.
Jesus said "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” So, believers are raised up on the last day.
Now here is the verse for the unbelievers being raised at the same time. John 12:48 says “The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.” So, unbelievers are also raised on the last day to give an account. The Last Day is the Great Day of the Lord, or as many refer to it as, Judgement Day. This is the day that we will all be raised. Every believer and non-believer raised.

The following passage indicates that both believers and unbelievers will be resurrected from the dead on the same day as well:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So, now you're asking, "Who are the saints that come back and reign with Jesus for 1000 years."

I'm not asking that. I already know that will not happen. Jesus is reigning now and the thousand years is not meant to be taken literal as a literal one thousand years.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Before I answer this, I want to show you something that you may have read before but never really took note of it.
We know that Jesus judges the world. So, Jesus judges everyone. But in Matthew 19:28 Jesus gave the disciples authority to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So, they will be giving thrones and they will sit on the thrones.
Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Now let's look at who comes back to reign with Christ for 1000 years. Let's look at Rev 20:4.
It says "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So, these special believers are the ones who give their lives for the testimony of Christ during the time of the beast. Revelation 4 continues saying “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.” So, it is only the martyrs who are raised and no one else. It is not all believers. The rest of the believers and non-believers are not raised until after the 1000 years are up. So, they get raised as Jesus said, "on the last day".

Now, if you look at the beginning of verse 4, you will notice that there are several Judges who judge the martyrs. This is not Jesus as there are more than one. “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.” The reason, I believe that there are several judges, is because this is the disciples judging the Jewish people who gave their lives for the testimony of Jesus.

So, let’s see what Revelation says about where the martyrs come from and who they are.
In Rev 6:11 it describes the martyrs. Each of them was given a white robe and they had to wait until the number of them was completed.
“When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.”
We can identify the martyrs because they were given white robes. White robes means they were a martyr.

Then in Rev 7:4-8 as John is having a vision, it describes how an angel tells him the number of people who are to be sealed/martyred (the number to be completed as stated in Rev 6:11) and he hears where they come from. The angel puts Gods seal on these people’s heads. John does not see them at this point, he only hears as the angel tell him the number. The angel describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. Most people stop reading here at verse 8 and then believe John has a new vision in verse 9. But I believe we are meant to continue reading as it is all a part of one vision. If we continue reading further, John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. He also describes them. So, verses 4-8 describes what and angel tells him but then in verses 9-17 John describes what he sees. He sees an amazing crowd, so massive that he could not count them, and they were wearing white robes. Imagine seeing 144,000 people. It would seem impossible to count. These people came from all over the world. Now before WW2, the Jewish people were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but all the long, they kept their identity. Then Israel, the country, was formed in 1948 and the Jewish people started to return. Thus, the wording, “of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues”. You will also notice in verse 9, that they are the same people who were given the white robes.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …….. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." So, the martyrs are the 144,000 who are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Hence the reason why in Revelation 20:4, it had several Judges. The disciples were on their thrones, judging people from Israel.

Issues with this understanding
1. I am not 100% sure if the 144,000 are specifically Jewish or if they are those that are martyred and believed in Him and obeyed Him.
Romans 2:28-29 says, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God."
I guess one day we will find out if it is specifically Jewish. It does say in Rev 3:4-5 that some people from Sardis which is in Turkey, were given white robes too. (White robes were given to the martyrs)
So, though the wording does say from the 12 tribes of Israel, I would not necessarily rule out non-Jewish people who believe and were martyred.

This was really hard to follow, but one thing is clear from this. You are not a typical premillennialist.

But, it's hard to tell exactly what you believe, so I'm going to ask a few questions for clarification. You seem to believe, as Amillennialists like myself do, that the last day, which is judgment day, will occur after the thousand years (and Satan's little season) and you believe that the rapture will occur at that time, right? And you see that judgment as involving both believers and unbelievers, right? And, yet, it seems that you believe His second coming is 1,000+ years before that? If so, then what do you make of Matthew 25:31-46 which portrays Jesus as judging both believers and unbelievers when He comes again, rather than 1,000+ years later?

 

[1Tonne]

This was really hard to follow, but one thing is clear from this. You are not a typical premillennialist.

But, it's hard to tell exactly what you believe, so I'm going to ask a few questions for clarification. You seem to believe, as Amillennialists like myself do, that the last day, which is judgment day, will occur after the thousand years (and Satan's little season) and you believe that the rapture will occur at that time, right? And you see that judgment as involving both believers and unbelievers, right? And, yet, it seems that you believe His second coming is 1,000+ years before that? If so, then what do you make of Matthew 25:31-46 which portrays Jesus as judging both believers and unbelievers when He comes again, rather than 1,000+ years later?

I understand it is hard to follow. Normally when looking at eschatological views for a first time, they can be hard to comprehend. You could say after studying a view for a period of time, they can click if they make sense.
So please, when looking at this, try to look at it afresh without any bais. So, not as an Amillennialist or Postmillennialist or any other view. So, look at it with a fresh outlook.
Most of what is needed to know for this view is laid out in the original post.

I do believe what you have stated.
I believe that Jesus comes with the martyrs and reigns for 1000 years. Then Satan is set free for a short time and then Jesus conquers him and then judges us all at the Great White Throne judgement.

 

[HTacianas]

NOTE: I am premillennialist, but I do not believe in a pre trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. The bible does not even say that there is a pre, mid or post trib rapture. So, we go through the tribulation and then the world continues for at least another 1000 years afterwards.
Also, I am not stuck on the tribulation being just at the time of the Antichrist. Many believers have been through tribulation through the ages.

So here goes:
I believe that there is only one rapture and that is on the Day of Judgement. Jesus even said this.
We know that the last day is the Day of Judgement and Jesus said that He will raise all believers up on this day as well as all non-believers.
Jesus said "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” So, believers are raised up on the last day.
Now here is the verse for the unbelievers being raised at the same time. John 12:48 says “The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.” So, unbelievers are also raised on the last day to give an account. The Last Day is the Great Day of the Lord, or as many refer to it as, Judgement Day. This is the day that we will all be raised. Every believer and non-believer raised.

So, now you're asking, "Who are the saints that come back and reign with Jesus for 1000 years."
Before I answer this, I want to show you something that you may have read before but never really took note of it.
We know that Jesus judges the world. So, Jesus judges everyone. But in Matthew 19:28 Jesus gave the disciples authority to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So, they will be giving thrones and they will sit on the thrones.
Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Please just remember this as it will make sense later.)

Now let's look at who comes back to reign with Christ for 1000 years. Let's look at Rev 20:4.
It says "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So, these special believers are the ones who give their lives for the testimony of Christ during the time of the beast. Revelation 4 continues saying “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.” So, it is only the martyrs who are raised and no one else. It is not all believers. The rest of the believers and non-believers are not raised until after the 1000 years are up. So, they get raised as Jesus said, "on the last day".

Now, if you look at the beginning of verse 4, you will notice that there are several Judges who judge the martyrs. This is not Jesus as there are more than one. “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.” The reason, I believe that there are several judges, is because this is the disciples judging the Jewish people who gave their lives for the testimony of Jesus.

So, let’s see what Revelation says about where the martyrs come from and who they are.
In Rev 6:11 it describes the martyrs. Each of them was given a white robe and they had to wait until the number of them was completed.
“When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.”
We can identify the martyrs because they were given white robes. White robes means they were a martyr.

Then in Rev 7:4-8 as John is having a vision, it describes how an angel tells him the number of people who are to be sealed/martyred (the number to be completed as stated in Rev 6:11) and he hears where they come from. The angel puts Gods seal on these people’s heads. John does not see them at this point, he only hears as the angel tell him the number. The angel describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. Most people stop reading here at verse 8 and then believe John has a new vision in verse 9. But I believe we are meant to continue reading as it is all a part of one vision. If we continue reading further, John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. He also describes them. So, verses 4-8 describes what and angel tells him but then in verses 9-17 John describes what he sees. He sees an amazing crowd, so massive that he could not count them, and they were wearing white robes. Imagine seeing 144,000 people. It would seem impossible to count. These people came from all over the world. Now before WW2, the Jewish people were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but all the long, they kept their identity. Then Israel, the country, was formed in 1948 and the Jewish people started to return. Thus, the wording, “of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues”. You will also notice in verse 9, that they are the same people who were given the white robes.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …….. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." So, the martyrs are the 144,000 who are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Hence the reason why in Revelation 20:4, it had several Judges. The disciples were on their thrones, judging people from Israel.

Issues with this understanding
1. I am not 100% sure if the 144,000 are specifically Jewish or if they are those that are martyred and believed in Him and obeyed Him.
Romans 2:28-29 says, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God."
I guess one day we will find out if it is specifically Jewish. It does say in Rev 3:4-5 that some people from Sardis which is in Turkey, were given white robes too. (White robes were given to the martyrs)
So, though the wording does say from the 12 tribes of Israel, I would not necessarily rule out non-Jewish people who believe and were martyred.

The idea of a "rapture" as is taught by some protestant groups, meaning a pre-tribulation rapture, is only recent. It has only been around since the early to mid nineteenth century and has never been a part of Christianity.

 

[Douggg]

@1Tonne

Here is the rapture timing view I have. I call it the anytime rapture view. Any time between right this very second and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple and commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:3-4.

 

[Douggg]

@1Tonne

The rapture/resurrection is in these verses...

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

God's wrath begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood, ending the world saying "Peace and safety" of the false messiah age. Saying peace and safety is in 1Thessalonians5:3.

 

[1Tonne]

@1Tonne

The rapture/resurrection is in these verses...

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

God's wrath begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood, ending the world saying "Peace and safety" of the false messiah age. Saying peace and safety is in 1Thessalonians5:3.

The verse you are speaking of is applicable to the Great White Throne judgement. Believers are saved from God's final judgement and His eternal wrath. Hell.

The tribulation is not God's wrath. It is satans wrath.
Rev 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

Tell me how you explain John 6:39-40. If we are all raised on the last day, how can we be raised earlier?
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[Douggg]

The tribulation is not God's wrath. It is satans wrath.
Rev 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

The great tribulation will be both a time of God's wrath, in the seven bowls (vials) of God's wrath poured out (Revelation 16) - and also a time of Satan's wrath knowing that his time is short.

Tell me how you explain John 6:39-40. If we are all raised on the last day, how can we be raised earlier? Did Jesus lie?
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Jesus never lies, so we should not present that sort of degrading of Jesus question ever, just to prove a point. The problem is always with us, not Jesus.

The issue is how are we to understand what he said, taking into account all other places in the scriptures regarding resurrections.

The last day, as I understand it in that verse, is talking about a thousand years is as a day unto the Lord, 2Peter3:8. Jesus is talking about the last day being at the millennium of this present earth.

And Jesus was actually talking about them in John 6:40, the first to become Christians, who would witness (see) his death on the cross and then believed upon his sacrifice as atonement for their sins. And later died in Christ.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Just the same, regarding all Christians...

1. There will be the anytime rapture/resurrection event before the thousand years in Revelation 20 begin.

2. There will be the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6 at the beginning of the thousand years.

3. There will be the resurrection of persons who become Christians during the thousand years and die during that time, resurrected at the end of the millennium for the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[1Tonne]

OK. Thanks for that.
Now, you have told me your view, please take a look at the view I have mentioned in the original post.
In it I have tried to understand the scripture by looking at it as literal as possible. So, I try to understand it with as little guesswork as possible.

I believe that we should look at a prophecy and if it makes literal sense, then we should understand it that way. So, 1000 years, is a literal 1000 years.
So, I am asking you to look at it with fresh eyes. You will see it makes sense.

PS. Sorry about the snap at the start. I get frustrated when a new viewpoint is brought up but then people just look at it with their original bias. So please try to look at it with fresh eyes.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I believe that we should look at a prophecy and if it makes literal sense, then we should understand it that way. So, 1000 years, is a literal 1000 years.
So, I am asking you to look at it with fresh eyes. You will see it makes sense.

1Tonne, how we are to understand any particular passage is not determined by man's rule of discipline in church tradition or dogma, but by carefully examining each verse in context and in conjunction with the whole Bible, to see how God intended the verse to be understood. For example, what you said is that some theologians developed a system where they believe that:

"if the literal sense, makes sense, seek no other sense."​

​

This hermeneutic or system is as bankrupt and faulty as their logic is, and that is very easily provable. For example, John the Baptist came to make the crooked roads straight. The literal sense of that prophesy made sense, but if the disciples were to follow their system, they would still be waiting for a highway construction worker to come and literally make roads straight. Or when Jesus said, "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up." It made perfect sense literally. After all, Jesus was God and had done all sorts of great miraculous things. But the 'fact' is, though the literal sense, made sense, it is NOT what Christ had in view. Same with the prophecies of woe unto them that give suck, or His warnings not to go back into the house to get a coat, of the prophesied famines, or 1,000 years millennial kingdom. It all makes sense literally but is not meant to be taken literally. So to find out what God really had in view, we have to search other verses which shed 'light' on the spirituality of what was prophesied. And that is how we are 'always' to understand scripture. By letting the Bible be its own interpreter of what is literal and what is spiritual, and not the flawed systems and methodologies of men.

Selah.

 

[Douggg]

Also, I am not stuck on the tribulation being just at the time of the Antichrist. Many believers have been through tribulation through the ages.

The term is great tribulation, used by Jesus in Matthew 24:21. The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation, a statue image of the beast king (no longer the Antichrist, mistakened messiah king of Israel) is placed on the temple mount.

I believe that Jesus comes with the martyrs and reigns for 1000 years. Then Satan is set free for a short time and then Jesus conquers him and then judges us all at the Great White Throne judgement.

Jesus resurrects the great tribulation martyrs at the beginning of the 1000 years, thus called the first resurrection in the text once the 1000 years begins.

Prior to that resurrection, when Jesus returns to this earth in Revelation 19, He will be accompanied by the armies of heaven (Revelation 19:14), which are the previously raptured/resurrected saints. In Zechariah 14:5, it says the same, the Lord comes with all his saints. In Jude 1:14, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

For Christians to be part of the saints returning with Jesus in their glorified bodies, they will be part of the rapture/resurrection event. And while the earth will be going through the great tribulation - in heaven, raptured/resurrected Christians will be rewarded according to the things done in this body for the cause of Christ.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[RileyG]

The idea of a "rapture" as is taught by some protestant groups, meaning a pre-tribulation rapture, is only recent. It has only been around since the early to mid nineteenth century and has never been a part of Christianity.

Correct. It was invented by John Nelson Darby. It's not biblical.

 

[Blade]

Thank you my brother. No one say "there is no rapture". We can and you should have "there is no rapture and this is why I say that what I believe" For me I have never found a clear scripture that points to Pre trib, mid trib, post trib. What I say might seem I lean to pre-trib. See for me there are things I can't just ignore like Christ telling the 12 "I am going back to my Fathers house to make you a place/home so where I am you will be. Where I go you know how I go you know". This they understood its like the old Jewish wedding. He said where I am you will be. Where is He? It is not written where you are I will be. No matter what we say or believe He can not lie at some point where He is we will be. He will come to receive/get/take us to where He is. Then Paul talked about caught up he had one of if not the greatest revelations and never said "those that remain" "them that remain" no he said "we which remain". That was not Paul talking but the sweet sweet holy Spirit.

Take Gods wrath OT NT its coming on the whole world and all in it. There is no place to hide this time. Lot God told him "as long as you are here I can do nothing". So now how many righteous are here today millions and millions. Yeah fact as long as I am here I will never see Gods wrath anywhere for again what's coming in one the whole world and all in it this is written. And whats coming He made it clear since the start to know there has never been anything like what coming. Backing up didn't Christ aka GOD through Christ say "I give you all power over the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you". Whats coming is not some man for man we have no power over but the enemy we have all power.

See there is nothing saying "all will go up in the Rapture (Caught up)". So has God ever gone against our will? So He comes and what happens to those that do not believe are not watching? Go up anyway? Yeah I can't say. Since no one since Christ left has found one scripture that points to Pre mid post caught up I cannot will not add or take away from His word. So I watch and am ready now. Today is when He comes its always now. I will never miss Him. See another thing we were never promised tomorrow we can prepare is wise but I was not promised tomorrow. Yeah if I was there with them He said all that then goes up and two angels say why look up Hes coming back the same way.....hello? Yeah I watched Him do and say things no other could do and He never lied so He said Hes will come back for us then I am always expecting Him

Had dreams visions. The only dream I had about Christ coming was a timer like 14 seconds left and I looked out into the stars and said "Hes coming Hes really coming". I am 62 and I have never known anything for sure like I did in that dream. I can say I know Christ is coming oh but in the dream.. there was no doubt no worry a knowing I have never known...oh I LOVED THAT. Fact He is coming.. watch and pray watch and pray watch and pray be ready.

 

[anetazo]

The rapture theory is false doctrine, Ezekiel chapter 13 to document it. Many churches are teaching traditions of men and will lead their flocks right into antichrist camp near future. Proverbs is 5, the apostate or hirelings, are poisoning people's minds with false doctrine. Proverbs chapter 5 warns people to stay away from the stranger or Zur. These are denominations that teach tradition of men and false doctrine. Antichrist will come 6th trump to Jerusalem. Its 5 month period. Jesus will return 7th trump to Jerusalem. If you go to wrong Wedding, its trip to hell. Study sound doctrine.

 

[PIckleRelations]

NOTE: I am premillennialist, but I do not believe in a pre trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. The bible does not even say that there is a pre, mid or post trib rapture. So, we go through the tribulation and then the world continues for at least another 1000 years afterwards.
Also, I am not stuck on the tribulation being just at the time of the Antichrist. Many believers have been through tribulation through the ages.

So here goes:
I believe that there is only one rapture and that is on the Day of Judgement. Jesus even said this.
We know that the last day is the Day of Judgement and Jesus said that He will raise all believers up on this day as well as all non-believers.
Jesus said "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” So, believers are raised up on the last day.
Now here is the verse for the unbelievers being raised at the same time. John 12:48 says “The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.” So, unbelievers are also raised on the last day to give an account. The Last Day is the Great Day of the Lord, or as many refer to it as, Judgement Day. This is the day that we will all be raised. Every believer and non-believer raised.

So, now you're asking, "Who are the saints that come back and reign with Jesus for 1000 years."
Before I answer this, I want to show you something that you may have read before but never really took note of it.
We know that Jesus judges the world. So, Jesus judges everyone. But in Matthew 19:28 Jesus gave the disciples authority to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So, they will be giving thrones and they will sit on the thrones.
Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Please just remember this as it will make sense later.)

Now let's look at who comes back to reign with Christ for 1000 years. Let's look at Rev 20:4.
It says "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So, these special believers are the ones who give their lives for the testimony of Christ during the time of the beast. Revelation 4 continues saying “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.” So, it is only the martyrs who are raised and no one else. It is not all believers. The rest of the believers and non-believers are not raised until after the 1000 years are up. So, they get raised as Jesus said, "on the last day".

Now, if you look at the beginning of verse 4, you will notice that there are several Judges who judge the martyrs. This is not Jesus as there are more than one. “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.” The reason, I believe that there are several judges, is because this is the disciples judging the Jewish people who gave their lives for the testimony of Jesus.

So, let’s see what Revelation says about where the martyrs come from and who they are.
In Rev 6:11 it describes the martyrs. Each of them was given a white robe and they had to wait until the number of them was completed.
“When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.”
We can identify the martyrs because they were given white robes. White robes means they were a martyr.

Then in Rev 7:4-8 as John is having a vision, it describes how an angel tells him the number of people who are to be sealed/martyred (the number to be completed as stated in Rev 6:11) and he hears where they come from. The angel puts Gods seal on these people’s heads. John does not see them at this point, he only hears as the angel tell him the number. The angel describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. Most people stop reading here at verse 8 and then believe John has a new vision in verse 9. But I believe we are meant to continue reading as it is all a part of one vision. If we continue reading further, John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. He also describes them. So, verses 4-8 describes what and angel tells him but then in verses 9-17 John describes what he sees. He sees an amazing crowd, so massive that he could not count them, and they were wearing white robes. Imagine seeing 144,000 people. It would seem impossible to count. These people came from all over the world. Now before WW2, the Jewish people were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but all the long, they kept their identity. Then Israel, the country, was formed in 1948 and the Jewish people started to return. Thus, the wording, “of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues”. You will also notice in verse 9, that they are the same people who were given the white robes.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …….. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." So, the martyrs are the 144,000 who are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Hence the reason why in Revelation 20:4, it had several Judges. The disciples were on their thrones, judging people from Israel.

Issues with this understanding
1. I am not 100% sure if the 144,000 are specifically Jewish or if they are those that are martyred and believed in Him and obeyed Him.
Romans 2:28-29 says, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God."
I guess one day we will find out if it is specifically Jewish. It does say in Rev 3:4-5 that some people from Sardis which is in Turkey, were given white robes too. (White robes were given to the martyrs)
So, though the wording does say from the 12 tribes of Israel, I would not necessarily rule out non-Jewish people who believe and were martyred.

It does actually speak of the first resurrection in three phases, in 1 Corinthians 15, with the first phase already completed, which it corresponded to the Firstfruits, the first phase of the harvest cycle, and also the first of the festivals when the Jews were required to present themselves to the Lord in Jerusalem. The second phase is what the scriptures calls the main harvest (2nd phase), what we call the rapture, and what corresponds with the 2nd Jewish gathering to Jerusalem at the Pentecostal festival. The last phase, the 3rd harvest phase, is that of the gleanings, corresponding to the third gathering at Tabernacles.

The third one is the one you are looking forward to. I'm looking to the soon upcoming second phase. You've overlooked the first phase completely, and that's a past event, one we are made aware of in Matthew 27:52-53 and 1 Cor 15:23. It would be a good exercise to review he threefold resurrection order, the three phase harvest, and the three festivals requiring the Jews to gather, and see how they fit together. The pretrib rapture (main harvest of the living and the dead) will come clearly into view.

 

[1Tonne]

Prior to that resurrection, when Jesus returns to this earth in Revelation 19, He will be accompanied by the armies of heaven (Revelation 19:14), which are the previously raptured/resurrected saints.

I look at Rev 19:11 to Rev 20:3 and I see that this is when Christ comes and defeats the Antichrist with His army. You see that his soldiers are clothed in white which is the same as Revelation 6:11. So they are the martyrs. Then in Rev 20:4 John sees another aspect of the martyrs. It goes into a little bit more detail about them saying that they are the ones that are beheaded for their faith and that they did not take the mark.

It does actually speak of the first resurrection in three phases,

I guess you could say it is a 3 phase resurrection. First Jesus. Then the martyrs. And lastly, everyone else to give an account for their life.

 

[Douggg]

I look at Rev 19:11 to Rev 20:3 and I see that this is when Christ comes and defeats the Antichrist with His army. You see that his soldiers are clothed in white which is the same as Revelation 6:11. So they are the martyrs.

Some of them are martyrs who died in Christ, as well as, other Christians who died from any number of other causes, including old age. Also in His army are the raptured in Christ, i.e. the living, translated into eternal everlasting bodies in the rapture/resurrection.

Reverlation 19:

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

After receiving rewards at the bema seat of Christ, for things they have done in their earthly body for the cause of Christ, they become the bride of Christ, who return with Christ.

The marriage supper of the Lamb is metaphoric of when Jesus destroys the armies that will have gathered to make war on him, in verse 17-20.

 

[1Tonne]

After receiving rewards at the bema seat of Christ, for things they have done in their earthly body for the cause of Christ, they become the bride of Christ, who return with Christ.

The bema seat judgement where people only get rewarded for good things was made up to fit the rapture. There is a bema seat judgement in the bible, but it is for both the good and bad things we do and it is at the end of time.
In Roman times, the most common bema seat was a place of judgement. So, where a judge sat to listen to both sides of an argument and then he would give his decision. This decision could be good or bad. Just like in the Great White Throne judgement.
So, the most common bema seat was a judgement seat and it is a place were people are rewarded but also a place where people are condemned. It is the one mentioned a number of times in the bible.
John 19:13 "Therefore when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement—but in Hebrew, Gabbatha." (Even Jesus faced the bema seat judgement of Pilate and it did not turn out well)
Heb 14:10 "But as for you, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or you as well, why do you regard your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God."
Matt 27:19 "While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent him a message,.......”
Acts 25:10 "But Paul said, “I am standing before Caesar’s tribunal, where I ought to be tried. I have done nothing wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know."

There was another bema seat that was not as well-known, and it was not mentioned in the bible. This is the bema seat where the rapture comes from. In the Olympics, when a person got 3rd, they were on the bottom podium, 2nd was the next level up. And 1st was on the top. This was called the bema seat as well. And obviously, this was only a place of reward. There was no punishment here.
But the most well-known bema seat was in the court of law. Also, the Olympic style of bema seat was never mentioned in the bible. But rapturists have made it fit anyway.

So, we are all gathered together at the same time, at the end of it all. Then we all go to the Great White Throne Judgement and will be judged on the good and the bad we do.
2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad."
Heb 14:10 "For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God."

The only people that do not go to the Great White Throne Judgement are the people who are martyred for their faith. Rev 20:5 specifically states that everyone else will not be raised until after the 1000-year reign. There is no secret taking up beforehand either as this is the first resurrection.
We also know that the martyrs are specifically Jewish people who give their lives for Him. The reason we know this is because, there is more than one throne. Jesus judges the world, but he gave His disciples authority to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
So, in Rev 20:4 there are a number of thrones and a number of judges because those judges are the disciples. And those that are being judged are from the 12 tribes of Israel.
No space for a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture.

 

[Douggg]

The bema seat judgement where people only get rewarded for good things was made up to fit the rapture. There is a bema seat judgement in the bible, but it is for both the good and bad things we do and it is at the end of time.
In Roman times, the most common bema seat was a place of judgement. So, where a judge sat to listen to both sides of an argument and then he would give his decision. This decision could be good or bad. Just like in the Great White Throne judgement.
So, the most common bema seat was a judgement seat and it is a place were people are rewarded but also a place where people are condemned. It is the one mentioned a number of times in the bible.
John 19:13 "Therefore when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement—but in Hebrew, Gabbatha." (Even Jesus faced the bema seat judgement of Pilate and it did not turn out well)
Heb 14:10 "But as for you, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or you as well, why do you regard your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God."
Matt 27:19 "While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent him a message,.......”
Acts 25:10 "But Paul said, “I am standing before Caesar’s tribunal, where I ought to be tried. I have done nothing wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know."

There was another bema seat that was not as well-known, and it was not mentioned in the bible. This is the bema seat where the rapture comes from. In the Olympics, when a person got 3rd, they were on the bottom podium, 2nd was the next level up. And 1st was on the top. This was called the bema seat as well. And obviously, this was only a place of reward. There was no punishment here.
But the most well-known bema seat was in the court of law. Also, the Olympic style of bema seat was never mentioned in the bible. But rapturists have made it fit anyway.

So, we are all gathered together at the same time, at the end of it all. Then we all go to the Great White Throne Judgement and will be judged on the good and the bad we do.
2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad."
Heb 14:10 "For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God."

The only people that do not go to the Great White Throne Judgement are the people who are martyred for their faith. Rev 20:5 specifically states that everyone else will not be raised until after the 1000-year reign. There is no secret taking up beforehand either as this is the first resurrection.
We also know that the martyrs are specifically Jewish people who give their lives for Him. The reason we know this is because, there is more than one throne. Jesus judges the world, but he gave His disciples authority to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
So, in Rev 20:4 there are a number of thrones and a number of judges because those judges are the disciples. And those that are being judged are from the 12 tribes of Israel.
No space for a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture.

The argument you are making still does not eliminate that in Revelation 19, Jesus is returning to this earth with the bride of Christ - the raptured/resurrected saints, his armies of heaven, riding white horses, clothing in fine linen, white and clean. 1000 years before the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[1Tonne]

You have misread Rev 19. It does not say the bride of Christ. But it does say that the army is dressed in white robes. White robes, just like the martyrs were given in Rev 6:11.
My point still stands. This is when Christ returns, and it is with the martyrs. Not the bride of Christ.

Just a note: I pointed out that there is no extra special bema seat judgement for the believers.
Jesus does say that he will raise all believers up on the last day though. That is the day of the Great white Throne judgement. Can you please show me where it specifically says that there is a Bema seat judgement only to give rewards and it is only for the believers that are raptured? I can't think of one but maybe there is.