No path to woman ordination to priesthood and diaconate, automatic excommunication for Germans

[Michie]

*You are in the Catholic forum*

Continued below.
Brief note on Canonist Weishaupt’s essay

 

[Basil the Great]

*You are in the Catholic forum*

Continued below.
Brief note on Canonist Weishaupt’s essay

That is the first time, Michie, that I have heard anyone claim that John Paul infallibly declared that women cannot be priests. Yes, he declared that the matter was settled, but infallibly so?

 

[Michie]

I was confused by that too. I don't think he spoke excathedra on the issue. I thought that was the only way to make a teaching infallible.

That is the first time, Michie, that I have heard anyone claim that John Paul infallibly declared that women cannot be priests. Yes, he declared that the matter was settled, but infallibly so?

 

[Michie]

@Davidnic can you help out?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I thought that was the only way to make a teaching infallible.

I mean in an informal, official sense speaking ex cathedra establishes the proclamation as infallible. But knowing the basis by which a statement is rendered infallible means it can't conflict with the Magisterium on matters of faith and morals, correct? So in that sense, couldn't the statement that there's no pathway for women into the priesthood and diaconate be consistent with Church teaching and therefore infallible?

Or am I missing a step?

 

[Michie]

I mean in an informal, official sense speaking ex cathedra establishes the proclamation as infallible. But knowing the basis by which a statement is rendered infallible means it can't conflict with the Magisterium on matters of faith and morals, correct? So in that sense, couldn't the statement that there's no pathway for women into the priesthood and diaconate be consistent with Church teaching and therefore infallible?

Or am I missing a step?

I was taught anything pronounced excathedra absolutely cannot go against the Magesterium. And even then, it must go through countless clergy in the Church before doing so. I guess what is confusing me is some of Pope Francis' writings like Amoris Laetitia where some issues do seem to go against the Magesterium and this article cites JPII's Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and pronounces what JPII said in it concerning women being ordained as infallible? I do not understand. This article cites these encyclicals as being a secondary object of infallibility. I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to this topic. I'm very curious though.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I was taught anything pronounced excathedra absolutely cannot go against the Magesterium. And even then, it must go through countless clergy in the Church before doing so. I guess what is confusing me is some of Pope Francis' writings like Amoris Laetitia where some issues do seem to go against the Magesterium and this article cites JPII's Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and pronounces what JPII said in it concerning women being ordained as infallible? I do not understand. This article cites these encyclicals as being a secondary object of infallibility. I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to this topic. I'm very curious though.

Huh, I haven't known anything from Francis to be considered infallible (yet). I thought Pius IX and Pius XII were the only ones to have declared a teaching infallible?

 

[Michie]

Huh, I haven't known anything from Francis to be considered infallible (yet). I thought Pius IX and Pius XII were the only ones to have declared a teaching infallible?

Maybe I did not communicate it well. It's hard on a phone. Pope Francis has not declared anything infallible and as far as I know, neither has JPII. What confuses me is using this particular document, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and citing it in the article as a secondary object of infallibility.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Maybe I did not communicate it well. It's hard on a phone. Pope Francis has not declared anything infallible and as far as I know, neither has JPII. What confuses me is using this particular document, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and citing it in the article as a secondary object of infallabiity.

Ahhh I see. I'll take the fault for this one, I don't think I did my due diligence before posting. Mea culpa.

 

[Michie]

Ahhh I see. I'll take the fault for this one, I don't think I did my due diligence before posting. Mea culpa.

No worries.

 

[Davidnic]

He used all but that in strong language. And it is infallibly taught in Union with constant teaching. Pope St. John Paul II did declare it in Union with the whole Church and teaching. So I see where many see it as infallible. Basically he used similar language and tied it to the United belief.

Basically he did not have to declare it...it already is just as much as the Trinity is. There is no legitimate theological dispute. So when he declared it in Union with the whole Church he was affirming what has forever been held.

 

[chilehed]

I was confused by that too. I don't think he spoke excathedra on the issue. I thought that was the only way to make a teaching infallible.

The exact quote of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is

"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."​

That clearly fulfills the requirements for an infalliable statement. Furthermore, in a followup letter which asked for clarification, the response was "yes, it's to be understood as an infallible statement".

Concerning the Reply of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the Teaching Contained in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

 

[Michie]

Thanks for the info David and chilehed. I had not heard of a secondary object of infallibility until today.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Basically he did not have to declare it...it already is just as much as the Trinity is.

I think that was the point I was trying to make, but you obviously said it much better, heh.