no one has seen God

[Radagast]

It is the only way to explain NT and OT verses about God that no one has seen Him and whoever sees God dies on one hand and all the theophanies that are recorded in the Bible where God indeed takes a physical form and appears to people.

No, there are many ways of explaining the Old Testament. Hundreds of books have been written on this subject alone.

Nothing that you have said addresses what's in those books.

Dr Michael Heiser in his dissertation and book makes good arguments for this position.

Who is Michael Heiser that I should pay attention to him?

 

[Andrewn]

Who is Michael Heiser that I should pay attention to him?

One does not pay attention to anyone bec of who he is but rather bec what he says makes sense. Also, one should not close his mind bec he doesn't like the writer, personally. We talk about ideas not people.

In a quotation you gave, Calvin said, "This passage is usually explained thus that as the naked majesty of God is concealed within himself, he never could be comprehended, except so far as he revealed himself in Christ; and therefore that it was only in Christ that God was formerly known to the fathers."

God was formerly known to the fathers in Christ. He revealed himself to them in Christ. In the pre-incarnate Christ. Do you see the similarity?

Why would you deny that God the Son operated in OT times? Even the Nicene Creed says about the Holy Spirit that He spoke through the prophets. That is OT prophets. The Bible says Yahweh talked to the prophets. But the Creed says it was the Holy Spirit. There is no contradiction. The Son and the Holy Spirit operated in OT times.

People rightly say that Yahweh is the Holy Trinity but when it comes to applying this belief they apply it only to God the Father. Why?

 

[Radagast]

Why would you deny that God the Son operated in OT times?

I said nothing of the kind.

As it happens, I believe that some of the O.T. theophanies involve the pre-incarnate Son (and I have reasons for believing that).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Mormons believe that Yahweh in the OT is the pre-incarnate Christ. Unfortunately, most Christians believe Yahweh is God the Father only, or at least this is the impression I get. Actually, Mormons are wrong in believing that Yahweh is only the pre-incarnate Christ. I'm not defending Mormonism and have no intention of turning this into a discussion about their beliefs.

There are at least 68 references to Theophany in the Church Fathers --- they all lived before JS.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Discourse on the Holy Theophany ...
CHURCH FATHERS: Oration 38 (Gregory Nazianzen)
CHURCH FATHERS: Four Homilies (St. Gregory Thaumaturgus)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gideon
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gideon

In a first theophany, granted him by day while he was threshing wheat, Gideon received the difficult mission of freeing his people; whereupon he built an altar to ...
CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book I (Eusebius)
CHURCH FATHERS: Oration 39 (Gregory Nazianzen)
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The manifestation of the newly born Christ
Home > Fathers of the Church > Sermons of St. Leo the Great > Sermon 34

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Bogdan G Bucur | St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary - Academia.edu

articles on theophanies in the church fathers

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The new Schaff-Herzog encyclopedia of religious knowledge: vol 11,1912 "the practise of the Greek Fathers from Justin Martyr, who identified the "angel of the Lord " with the Logos, furnish excuse for conceiving also the theophanies of the Old Testament as christophanies."

Christophany - The doctrine of the manifestations of the Son of God under the economy of the Old Testament 1852.

The works of Jonathan Edwards 1835 p564 "And the prophet Daniel, in the historical part of his book, gives an account of a very remarkable appearance of Christ in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace, with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego."

THEOPHANY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Irenaeus of Lyons also identifies the Angel/Messenger of the Lord with God the Son in Exodus 3:8:

And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, I have come down to deliver this people.” Against Heresies III, 6.

Saint Hilary of Poitiers writes:

To discriminate clearly between the Persons, He is called the Angel of God; He Who is God from God is also the Angel of God, but, that He may have the honour which is His due, He is entitled also Lord and God. On the Trinity IV

Theodoret of Cyrus writes:

The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to Moses. But Moses called Him an “angel” in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw — for whose angel could the Father be? — but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of Great Counsel.”

...

For more references to the Angel/Messenger of the Lord as the Pre-Incarnate Christ see also:

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 58, 59, 60, 61, 76, 86, 116, 126, 127, 128; Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.6.1-5, Fragments, 53; Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 16, De Carne, 14, Against Marcion 2.27, 3.9; Novatian, On the Trinity, 18, 19, 31; Apostolic Constitutions, 5.3.20; Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 1.7; Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, 1.5, 4.10, 5.10, Church History, 1.2.7-8, Preparation for the Gospel, VII. 5, 14-15; Origen, Contra Celsus, 5.53, 8.27; Methodious, Symposium, 3.4; Melito, New Fragments, 15; Ambrose, Exposition of the Christian Faith, 1.13.83; Athanasius, Against the Arians, 3.25.12-14; Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 11.3.

Is the Angel of the Lord the Pre-Incarnate Christ? - Taylor Marshall

 

[Daniel Marsh]

short answer the church fathers all predate JS and they wrote about theolosphies.

 

[Andrewn]

short answer the church fathers all predate JS and they wrote about theolosphies.

Very true. The truth that the pre-incarnate Christ is Yahweh was not invented by JS and the fact that he believed this should not turn modern Christians against a truth that previous generations had already known.

I should't have mentioned JS at all because, of course, I don't agree with his heretical ideas. But the point of this thread is that no one has ever seen God the Father and that no one can see Him and live.

For anyone still in doubt, see the 14 minute video "The Trinity in the OT."

Proof of the Trinity

 

[Radagast]

Very true. The truth that the pre-incarnate Christ is Yahweh was not invented by JS and the fact that he believed this should not turn modern Christians against a truth that previous generations had already known.

Sigh.

The Father is Yahweh.
The pre-incarnate Logos is Yahweh.
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh.

The Trinity is Yahweh and Yahweh is the Trinity.

... and videos off the Internet are not a proof of anything.

 

[Radagast]

Irenaeus of Lyons also identifies the Angel/Messenger of the Lord with God the Son in Exodus 3:8:

And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, I have come down to deliver this people.” Against Heresies III, 6.

Saint Hilary of Poitiers writes:

To discriminate clearly between the Persons, He is called the Angel of God; He Who is God from God is also the Angel of God, but, that He may have the honour which is His due, He is entitled also Lord and God. On the Trinity IV

Theodoret of Cyrus writes:

The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to Moses. But Moses called Him an “angel” in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw — for whose angel could the Father be? — but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of Great Counsel.”

...

For more references to the Angel/Messenger of the Lord as the Pre-Incarnate Christ see also:

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 58, 59, 60, 61, 76, 86, 116, 126, 127, 128; Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.6.1-5, Fragments, 53; Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 16, De Carne, 14, Against Marcion 2.27, 3.9; Novatian, On the Trinity, 18, 19, 31; Apostolic Constitutions, 5.3.20; Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 1.7; Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, 1.5, 4.10, 5.10, Church History, 1.2.7-8, Preparation for the Gospel, VII. 5, 14-15; Origen, Contra Celsus, 5.53, 8.27; Methodious, Symposium, 3.4; Melito, New Fragments, 15; Ambrose, Exposition of the Christian Faith, 1.13.83; Athanasius, Against the Arians, 3.25.12-14; Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 11.3.

Is the Angel of the Lord the Pre-Incarnate Christ? - Taylor Marshall

Yes, there's a long tradition that when "The Angel of the Lord" is referred to, it means the pre-Incarnate Logos. I believe that myself.

But that's a long way from the heretical idea that "Yahweh" refers only to the Logos.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Yes, there's a long tradition that when "The Angel of the Lord" is referred to, it means the pre-Incarnate Logos. I believe that myself.

But that's a long way from the heretical idea that "Yahweh" refers only to the Logos.

I forget when Sabellism came to be.