No More Sin...

[RC_NewProtestants]

let's revisit this for a moment.... I don't think man has a component called "spirit." I think God communicates to us through our minds.... I think Paul was trying to explain what was going on using the terms of his day... having said that, is it possible for sinners to no longer sin without being permanently transformed?

Very well "spirit" is a conception of our mind I think that is fine and perfectly acceptable. Psychology has subdivided the mind into "id" "ego" "super ego" etc. They are techniques used to help us understand ourselves. So the application of "spirit" could also simply be a way of understanding ourselves as well as God.

History and our personal experience shows that there is no one that does not sin (except Jesus who is also God). It would be tempting to assume however if you ever met someone who did not sin any longer that they were permanently transformed. Although that would be a logical fallacy since we could have no way of knowing if they were never going to sin again and thus we could not say they were permanently transformed. However you could assert the negative that anyone who does sin is not currently permanently transformed.

In Christian theology however the permanently transformed has never been seen as part of this present life experience and is seen only as a supernatural act of God upon people. A gift given at the same time as the resurrection from the dead.

Honor's idea that there would be no difference between a believer and a non believer is likewise a logical fallacy. But a good example of what happens when human reasoning ignores logic.

 

[BGMCFAR]

So when Christ said Watch and be ready for you know not the hour that he returns Tells me that even tho we accept Jesus we still sin its just we can ask for forgivness and are saved by Grace do you think that whe Jesus told the woman go and sin know more do you think she was transformed and didn't commit another sin

 

[sentipente]

I think we, all of us humans, tend to remove human intelligence from our understanding of humans. Humans do not do what they cannot do nor do they attempt what they do not believe they can do.

 

[sentipente]

And if that is so--then by that reasoning no one is lost at His return because everybody gets a new nature of sinlessness?

Would you have a problem with that?

 

[Avonia]

How does the omnipresent God gather itself to GO anywhere? Assuming it does, and it arrives, does it then unfold back into omnipresence, and if so, what's the point of the journey?

 

[StormyOne]

How does the omnipresent God gather itself to GO anywhere? Assuming it does, and it arrives, does it then unfold back into omnipresence, and if so, what's the point of the journey?

good points... additionally why would God need to? He is already everywhere, and everywhere he is, he is God....

 

[Endium]

Well Paul said that he still sinned, man, he even called himself the worst sinner of all. It's pretty obvious that when you are saved doesn't mean you will immediately stop sinning.

I think we should be careful when considering Paul's statement about being the worst sinner. Actually committing sins, and being the chief of sinners are two different things. I don't believe that Paul was committing any sin that he knew of. Calling himself the chief of sinners wasn't an admittance of current sinful behavior, but an acknowledgment of his sinful nature and natural inclinations to go against God.

In fact, in 1 Corinthians 4 Paul says "For I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord." Paul was saying that He couldn't think of any sin against himself. At that point in time, Paul couldn't have told you specific sins that he was living in, or specific things that he was doing wrong, because there weren't any ! (to the best of his knowledge)

That doesn't mean Paul was calling himself perfect, though. He clearly states that even though he personally can't think of anything against himself, God is the true judge, and not himself.

Still, this gives reason for us to believe that Paul was living a pretty victorious life. I mean, how many of us wouldn't be able to list anything against ourselves? For most of us, we could probably list 5 things in 10 seconds that are right now wrong with us! I know at least I could....

I think the attitude to have isn't "Even Paul himself was a great sinner, so of course I will be too," but instead "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected, but I press on...I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

 

[honorthesabbath]

Would you have a problem with that?

Nope--but then who are the wicked that are lost?

 

[honorthesabbath]

I think we should be careful when considering Paul's statement about being the worst sinner. Actually committing sins, and being the chief of sinners are two different things. I don't believe that Paul was committing any sin that he knew of. Calling himself the chief of sinners wasn't an admittance of current sinful behavior, but an acknowledgment of his sinful nature and natural inclinations to go against God.

In fact, in 1 Corinthians 4 Paul says "For I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord." Paul was saying that He couldn't think of any sin against himself. At that point in time, Paul couldn't have told you specific sins that he was living in, or specific things that he was doing wrong, because there weren't any ! (to the best of his knowledge)

That doesn't mean Paul was calling himself perfect, though. He clearly states that even though he personally can't think of anything against himself, God is the true judge, and not himself.

Still, this gives reason for us to believe that Paul was living a pretty victorious life. I mean, how many of us wouldn't be able to list anything against ourselves? For most of us, we could probably list 5 things in 10 seconds that are right now wrong with us! I know at least I could....

I think the attitude to have isn't "Even Paul himself was a great sinner, so of course I will be too," but instead "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected, but I press on...I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

Very excellent post Endium. I especially appreciate the part where you state that you thought that Paul was living a 'pretty VICTORIOUS life'. Isn't this one of the things that Jesus came to accomplish? I sent us free from sin now? To take the hand-cuffs away from satan that binds us to a sinful, selfish life? I like what you said and how you said it.

 

[honorthesabbath]

let's revisit this for a moment....

I don't think man has a component called "spirit."

I think God communicates to us through our minds.... I think Paul was trying to explain what was going on using the terms of his day... having said that, is it possible for sinners to no longer sin without being permanently transformed?

I agree with you on this part of your statement.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

That doesn't mean Paul was calling himself perfect, though. He clearly states that even though he personally can't think of anything against himself, God is the true judge, and not himself.

That is the point however in much of these conversations. Some think that a victorious life is one free from sin. something Paul never claimed. For Paul the victory was found in the relationship to Christ not in his own known or unknown sins. It is that balance that is most important and we had a whole discussion thread on Perfection where those who believed in endtime and some even current time perfection did so without any kind of balance.

 

[StormyOne]

That is the point however in much of these conversations. Some think that a victorious life is one free from sin. something Paul never claimed. For Paul the victory was found in the relationship to Christ not in his own known or unknown sins. It is that balance that is most important and we had a whole discussion thread on Perfection where those who believed in endtime and some even current time perfection did so without any kind of balance.

isn't that usually the case though? one particular aspect of a relationship becomes the primary focus and balance is lost... It is about our relationship with him since he saves in the context of relationship.... its not about counting individual sins or hoping that good works counter-balance the sin we commit... however some concepts die a hard death if they die at all...

 

[freeindeed2]

isn't that usually the case though? one particular aspect of a relationship becomes the primary focus and balance is lost... It is about our relationship with him since he saves in the context of relationship.... its not about counting individual sins or hoping that good works counter-balance the sin we commit... however some concepts die a hard death if they die at all...

And that one's certainly not dead, is it...

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

In another forum a poster suggested that we are all sinners saved by the blood of Christ, and that we can overcome our environment and circumstances.... i.e. we don't have to succumb to sin.....

I thought about this for a moment and had this question..... So did His saving us suddenly make us non-sinners? If not, what are the ramifications.....

I think that we will all continue to sin, but I don't think it's a bad idea to aim to stop.

For example, you're addicted to uhm..okay, we'll say you're addicted to stealing, that'll work. Should you just keep on giving in to stealing, knowing you'll be forgiven and changed? Allowing your sinful nature to control you?

No. You should at least try to stop. Every time you force yourself, with God's help of course, to walk away without stealing is a triumph in God's favor. You could go a week without stealing and then steal again, then another week..and so on. Still, you're trying. Maybe, if you focus strong enuogh on God you can eventually stop all-together.

Does that mean you're not doing another sin? No, of course not. But one by one we can certainly fight sins..and we should always strive to, in my opinion. One's goal is better off to be sinless than to accept ones sin and stop fighting.