No More Sin...

[StormyOne]

In another forum a poster suggested that we are all sinners saved by the blood of Christ, and that we can overcome our environment and circumstances.... i.e. we don't have to succumb to sin.....

I thought about this for a moment and had this question..... So did His saving us suddenly make us non-sinners? If not, what are the ramifications.....

 

[Mankin]

Well Paul said that he still sinned, man, he even called himself the worst sinner of all. It's pretty obvious that when you are saved doesn't mean you will immediately stop sinning.

 

[StormyOne]

Well Paul said that he still sinned, man, he even called himself the worst sinner of all. It's pretty obvious that when you are saved doesn't mean you will immediately stop sinning.

immediately or ever? I suspect we will stop sinning the moment He changes us at his return...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

In another forum a poster suggested that we are all sinners saved by the blood of Christ, and that we can overcome our environment and circumstances.... i.e. we don't have to succumb to sin.....

Unfortunately sin has far more affects upon us then our relationship with God. In other words the guy who attacks you on the street and beats you up has still damaged you no matter what the forgiveness and acceptance of God has done for you. So we are very much participants and or victims of our environment and circumstances.

It reminds me of the things I saw on TV about John Lennon this last week in honor of his birthday they showed a show about his peace efforts. He talked to the people who were not causing the problems. He did not go to the Soviet Union or the Viet Cong. He focused on the people who were fighting in defense of others rather then the aggressors. As even the his wife said he was very naive.

Even people who have a relationship and love for God are still quite capable of acting in ways that hurt others.

 

[freeindeed2]

immediately or ever? I suspect we will stop sinning the moment He changes us at his return...

This is always a fascinating topic for me. Some choose to define sin simply as the breaking of the 10 commandments (law). It actually says sin is lawlessness, and they bridge to apply to Israel's law only.

The problem is that everybody breaks it. So by that definition I would absolutely agree that we will sin to the end.

Yet, through faith in Christ, we have been credited with His righteousness and have been made into new creations. We have been transformed. We have died to sin and to the law by sharing in Christ's death, and have been raised and joined to ANOTHER, Christ himself. God LIVES IN us. John says in 1 John 3 that we no longer sin, and if we do we never knew Him or understood who he was. It says that we are children of God and that his seed is in us, so we can't sin.

Again, if 'we do not sin' and 'we can't sin' applies to not breaking the 10 commandments, then those can't be true statements, for we all still break them. And it can't refer to some future 'state' as it's stated in the present tense almost 2000 years ago. And here we are still today.

Sin runs much deeper than the actions of man. It is in our very NATURE and we were born sinners before even forming our first thought, or performing our first conscious act. Keeping the 10 commandments does not eradicate the sin nature we were born with. They won't change the fact that we were born spiritually dead.

 

[StormyOne]

you say we have been transformed, yet all those transformed people still sin... so how can we say that we don't sin?

 

[JonMiller]

We are genetically predisposed to sin.

Anger problems, promiscuity, homosexuality, lying, adultery, all have genetic factors associated with them. I think that maybe all sin has genetic factors... we are born sinful.

And it won't be until our bodies are made new (at Christ's second coming) that we will be free from that.

JM

 

[freeindeed2]

you say we have been transformed, yet all those transformed people still sin... so how can we say that we don't sin?

That is the condndrum of defining sin as the breaking of the 10 commandments. We all still break them.

1 John 3


4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We are in Christ and Christ is in us. In HIM there is no sin. And since HIS seed (Christ himself) is IN us we CANNOT sin. We live by faith, and whatever is not of faith is sin.

 

[freeindeed2]

We are genetically predisposed to sin.

Anger problems, promiscuity, homosexuality, lying, adultery, all have genetic factors associated with them. I think that maybe all sin has genetic factors... we are born sinful.

And it won't be until our bodies are made new (at Christ's second coming) that we will be free from that.

JM

I agree. But it's more than just a predisposition. We are conceived with a sin nature, spiritually dead. We sin because we are sinners, we aren't sinners because we sin.

 

[StormyOne]

That is the condndrum of defining sin as the breaking of the 10 commandments. We all still break them.

1 John 3


4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We are in Christ and Christ is in us. In HIM there is no sin. And since HIS seed (Christ himself) is IN us we CANNOT sin. We live by faith, and whatever is not of faith is sin.

help me understand your point because the texts suggest the possibility of people existing without sinning, yet we have never seen that, unless you are trying to say something else...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I reject the idea that we are spiritually dead, it has no scriptural definition and is an illogical position. It is merely a traditional Christian statement which is never defined and only assumed, spiritually dead would mean that we have no spiritual side, no desire or inclination to relate to God. Clearly that is not the state of man and more then that it would require that only God could revive our spiritual side so that it is no longer dead and then we could be inclined to deal with spiritual things. The only way it could work is if one held to a predestination hyper Calvinist view that God has determined some to be saved and others for destruction and it is all God's doing unrelated to what the person wants to do or not. Rather like Martin Luther's view that we are all stuck on mule either ridden by God or the Devil.

The fundamental truth, for Luther, was the omnipotence of God, and its corollary, predestination. Luther embraced absolute predestination, claiming, as he did, that anything else was an illogical, almost blasphemous limitation on the sovereign will of God. In this sense Luther forsake the faculty on man's free will. Man has no control over his personal salvation. Man is always under the control of God or the Devil. However, God controls everything. He chooses who he wants to save, and turns he rest over to the Devil. Therefore, in this scheme of total predestination Christ did not die for all men, but just for those who God determined would be saved. In making such a declaration Luther was aware that he had eliminated the necessity of the sacraments, sermons, and even incarnation itself. He attempted resolving these difficulties but was never successful in doing so because he would never submit to any limitation upon the will of God in his teachings. Luther's declaration that that God determined whom he would save made little difference among his followers because they, like Luther, knew God had chosen to save them.
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/l/luther_martin .html

 

[freeindeed2]

help me understand your point because the texts suggest the possibility of people existing without sinning, yet we have never seen that, unless you are trying to say something else...

Not from the standpoint of only defining sin as the breaking of the 10C's. If that is the standard definition (instead of sin being lawlessness) then it is completely safe to say that NOBODY is keeping them (not breaking them).

But what does it mean to say that we are declared to be righteous on the merits of Christ alone, and that God's anger that was against us has been satisfied?

 

[freeindeed2]

I reject the idea that we are spiritually dead, it has no scriptural definition and is an illogical position.

And [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (NASB) Ephesians 2:1-3[/FONT]

Were we spiritually 'alive' and then dead?

It is merely a traditional Christian statement which is never defined and only assumed, spiritually dead would mean that we have no spiritual side, no desire or inclination to relate to God.

We weren't born with an 'inclination' toward God.

10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Clearly we were against God. He saved us WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS. It was NOT because of any 'inclination' we had, since we had none. Sinful human nature, at its heart, stands against God, and we are born with it.

Clearly that is not the state of man and more then that it would require that only God could revive our spiritual side so that it is no longer dead and then we could be inclined to deal with spiritual things.

Exactly! It is ONLY because of him. We weren't looking for him, yet he came and saved us anyway. It's ALL because of Him!

The only way it could work is if one held to a predestination hyper Calvinist view that God has determined some to be saved and others for destruction and it is all God's doing unrelated to what the person wants to do or not. Rather like Martin Luther's view that we are all stuck on mule either ridden by God or the Devil.

I don't know about that, but I do know that ALL the credit for Him saving sinful man is His. I boast of NOTHING except of Christ and Him crucified. He ALONE is my Savior.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

All are spiritually alive that is why when the story of Jesus is told people listen (the exception may be those who have committed the unpardonable sin but even that is based upon clearly rejecting God's Spirit). You did not produce even one verse that said anyone was "spiritually dead" you merely read into the verse the spiritual part. Paul says we are dead because unless our we accept the gift of life we will die.

Spiritually alive does not mean someone is good or sinless, that is again an unwarrented assumption.

 

[freeindeed2]

All are spiritually alive that is why when the story of Jesus is told people listen (the exception may be those who have committed the unpardonable sin but even that is based upon clearly rejecting God's Spirit).

Hi RC, I usually agree with what you post. This would be an exception. Please don't take it as an attack.

What happened when sin entered the world and the chasm was made between man and God? If we are spiritually 'alive', then why do we need a Savior?

I don't deny that the Spirit has influence over all, but the the Bible is clear (Rom 3) that NOBODY is good, and NONE seek God and ALL have turned away. We are bent toward evil, not good.

You did not produce even one verse that said anyone was "spiritually dead" you merely read into the verse the spiritual part.

"Spiritually dead" is not a Biblical term. The passage I quoted said that:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

Are we not born sinners? We seek our own way, we are selfish. We certainly don't seek to follow God from birth, do we? I don't believe we are inherently 'good'. That's not the nature of sinful human nature.

Paul says we are dead because unless our we accept the gift of life we will die.

Scripture please.

Spiritually alive does not mean someone is good or sinless, that is again an unwarrented assumption.

What part of our 'spirit' is alive because of Adam?


4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

What were we saved from again?

Psalm 51:5

5 For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

What part of being born a 'sinner' means that we had a bent toward God? Did we 'choose' him?

 

[Mankin]

immediately or ever? I suspect we will stop sinning the moment He changes us at his return...

I agree with this as well.

 

[StormyOne]

Free we needed a savior because we could not save ourselves... however that does not mean that we were dead spiritually does it?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

well probably we should start with some definitions because unfortunately many Christians use terms without knowing what they mean. so lets see if we can agree on some terms.

What is man's spirit?
our spirit is that part of us most likely something in our minds which is able to interact with the mind of God.

What is the Holy Spirit?
That part of God which interacts, influences leads and communicates with the mind of man, more specifically the spirit of man or as Paul says the inner man.

If you can agree with those definitions and I don't know how you could not as even someone who believes like you that people are spiritually dead uses the same definition as I did above.

Question: "What is the difference between the soul and spirit of man?"

Answer: What is the difference between the spirit and the soul? The word "spirit," refers only to the immaterial facet of man. Mankind has a spirit, but we are not a spirit. However, in Scripture, only believers, those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, are said to be "spiritually alive" (1 Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26). Unbelievers are "spiritually dead" (Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13). In Paul's writing the "spirit" was pivotal to the spiritual life of the believer (1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:1; 15:45; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; Colossians 1:9; 3:16). The spirit is the element in man which gives him the ability to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word "spirit" is used, it refers to the immaterial part of man including his soul.
http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-spirit.html

Now how is it that man could have lost the part of himself that can communicate with God?
Most Christians will say that it was when Adam and Eve sinned and that they spiritually died on that day. But of course there is no Old Testament concept of spiritually dead (no real New Testament concept either really). In the story of Adam and Eve it is pretty clear that they did not spiritually die as right after they sinned they went and hid and became afraid of God. Then God communed with them and as the stories continue many other people commune with God. In fact all the ancient religions try to commune with whatever god they can come up with, so pretty clearly man has from as far back as we can discern had a spiritual component.

As some of the better Study Bibles indicate the idea expressed in the Adam and Eve story about the day you eat you will surely die is idiomatic of "when" (see New English Study Bible) so the idea is that there is a consequence to the action, in this case a natural consequence which comes to every man as they live and then die. No Israelite would read the Adam and Eve story and say that God killed them spiritually (some might not like the idea that God killed them spiritually but how else could that part of man die, could he kill his own inner component) on that day as it would not make any sense to the other stories related and since it was much later that the idea of a resurrection developed it is clear that they could not have seen anything of a spiritual death here. When you die you were buried with your forefathers hopefully on familiar land, death was death, the end of respiration and animation.

 

[StormyOne]

let's revisit this for a moment.... I don't think man has a component called "spirit." I think God communicates to us through our minds.... I think Paul was trying to explain what was going on using the terms of his day... having said that, is it possible for sinners to no longer sin without being permanently transformed?

 

[honorthesabbath]

We are genetically predisposed to sin.

Anger problems, promiscuity, homosexuality, lying, adultery, all have genetic factors associated with them. I think that maybe all sin has genetic factors... we are born sinful.

And it won't be until our bodies are made new (at Christ's second coming) that we will be free from that.

JM

Jon--so let me see--by your comment about sinning right up until Christs return when He makes us stop sinning, then would it be safe to say that there is no difference between the wicked of this world and those who proclaim the blood of Christ? And if that is so--then by that reasoning no one is lost at His return because everybody gets a new nature of sinlessness?