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I am a little humbled reading this thread. Am I over-reacting or being over-sensitive, when I wonder if there is a little sense of "we, the saved and going to heaven"and "they, the damned who will burn in the lake of fire for ever and ever" - with an undercurrent of "and they deserve every bit of it..." ?
We all deserve to be damned. We didn't deserve to experience God's grace. In fact that is what grace is - something good that is not deserved.
And God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, or the lake of fire. He says so quite clearly through Ezekial and elsewhere:
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." (Ez: 33:11)
Rather than gloat over the fate of unrepentant sinners, we should be heartbroken by it, and much more active in working with God to reach them with the good news that there is a better, more abundant life, through Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Have I, have you, done anything today to further this effort? Knowing that I haven't done as much as I could have is what humbles me.
I'd be happy to hear your understanding of Eph 2:1-5
Ephesians 2:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
It's hard to believe he's talking about a time before birth...
Explain how we can be both dead in sin, but walking around having "our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" if we weren't some kind of alive.
I am a little humbled reading this thread. Am I over-reacting or being over-sensitive, when I wonder if there is a little sense of "we, the saved and going to heaven"and "they, the damned who will burn in the lake of fire for ever and ever" - with an undercurrent of "and they deserve every bit of it..." ?
We all deserve to be damned. We didn't deserve to experience God's grace. In fact that is what grace is - something good that is not deserved.
And God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, or the lake of fire. He says so quite clearly through Ezekial and elsewhere:
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." (Ez: 33:11)
Rather than gloat over the fate of unrepentant sinners, we should be heartbroken by it, and much more active in working with God to reach them with the good news that there is a better, more abundant life, through Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Have I, have you, done anything today to further this effort? Knowing that I haven't done as much as I could have is what humbles me.
Very touching words and I felt your heart in that, tears.....I think we all need to be honest....and if we are honest, we would admit: we dont know. So why put anyone else down about what they believe when we are.....just believers(most of us).
There are things that ring true to me, and others that dont.......but until God Shows me, I dont know... i just believe. And even when God Shows me things, I cant expect for you to say you know after i relay what he Said....you would still just be believing what i said....but you would need to be able to Get your answer from God as well. And even when he shows you the north side of the same tree that i saw....only i saw the south.....We would still paint different pictures of the same Truth!
This is why i respect all opinions and i only ask questions. Some, after 10, 100, 1000 "answered questions," will realize that they just dont have a clue and then will go to God as a little child....and Know the Truth.
I dont trust my Carnal mind....it is enmity against God (so it the devil)....It tries to make me think i know everything...It teaches me good and evil, tells me i know more than you know. But it is a lie( so is the devil)!
One day i had to give up my Masters degree in biblical interpretations and ask God, if it wasnt too late, if he would allow me to just sit outside of His kindergarten classroom.... so that when the little children gets up to use the bathroom and open the door, i could possibly get an ear shot of what was being discussed inside. What I've heard in the few times the door did swing open for a few second is worth more than all the knowledge my carnal minds has gathered in my lifetime.....
Soon i hope to get a seat in the class.....but even then, whatever you had to say would still be respected.
Right...Hell is not a place for any living anything. God in his glory is the fires of Hell to fallen beings. That fire burns the earth to the lowest Hell getting rid of the works of man. Wicked become a part of the earth when they are burned to be ashes body and soul and nothing more.
Not that LazarusThat story of Lazarus in Hell was a parable. Wicked die. The end of them will be ashes. They will see God's light as wrath - vengeance.
Perfect love casts out all sin as well ("perfect" love)... But while in sin and not yet perfected in love, but beginning in it, as you undergo the "process" of "sanctification", the Love deals with the sin and consequently, the "fear" issue/factor as well... The wisdom in being under fear, while being perfected in love, is allowing the power of Love to work on the sin issue in you, after, when complete, needs not to fear any longer...The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. (Proverbs 9:10)
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. (1 John 4:18)
God is making children. That is what this world is. Grace is what makes us strong, opens our eyes, keeps us on the path, and prepares us for being His children in His presence. That is what this world was made for, that is why God hardened the priests of Israel.
The word hell appears in the NASB/NIV Bible 15 times.
The word grace appears in the NASB/NIV Bible 124 times.
Romans 11
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]
9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
Most of humanity, ~70%, is near extreme poverty, every 8 months as many die from avoidable early deaths in poverty as were killed in Nazi death camps. What will happen to the poor in China and the Middle East who are surrounded by conflict and human governments? I believe Jesus will forgive them and take them to heaven or forgive them and take them to the new earth for 1,000 year example of what is meant to be.
Matthew 5
3 “[b]Blessed are the [c]poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the [d]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
There was never the suggestion to "scare" anyone to Jesus. Not ever.You can't scare people to Jesus.
A proper preaching of Law and Gospel, making a firm distinction and never confusing them, should be sufficient. And always, always, always the centrality of Christ.
Hellfire sermonizing is nothing more than than bogeman tactics to scare children into not making cosmic Santa Claus angry, and is fundamentally outside the scope of Christian religion which proclaims that the good Creator God has purposed for His creation redemption and that it is found in Jesus Christ and that by the death and resurrection of Christ sinners have peace with God and hope of life everlasting. The sobering reality of hell plays a role, but not as fear-mongering.
-CryptoLutheran
That there is a hell and there is a heaven.So what's the point of hellfire preaching?
-CryptoLutheran
That there is a hell and there is a heaven.
That there is a God and there is a satan.
BALANCE
Agreed.I guess we have very different ideas about what preaching is supposed to be about. The preaching of Law and Gospel is where balance is found: the Law by which we stand condemned as sinners in our sin, and the Gospel by which we are saved and have the sure and certain promises of God that we are His because of His unyielding mercy in Jesus Christ. The purpose of preaching is to sear the conscience and draw us to repentance and to deliver to us the saving word of Christ's precious Gospel that we might have faith, trusting in Him, and therefore be nourished by this saving Word of God to our own and very salvation which is from Him and of Him alone.
Heaven and hell mean nothing, Jesus Christ means everything. If we aren't preaching Christ then we aren't preaching.
-CryptoLutheran
I guess we have very different ideas about what preaching is supposed to be about. The preaching of Law and Gospel is where balance is found: the Law by which we stand condemned as sinners in our sin, and the Gospel by which we are saved and have the sure and certain promises of God that we are His because of His unyielding mercy in Jesus Christ. The purpose of preaching is to sear the conscience and draw us to repentance and to deliver to us the saving word of Christ's precious Gospel that we might have faith, trusting in Him, and therefore be nourished by this saving Word of God to our own and very salvation which is from Him and of Him alone.
Heaven and hell mean nothing, Jesus Christ means everything. If we aren't preaching Christ then we aren't preaching.
-CryptoLutheran
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