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no man has ascended into heaven????

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by BULWARK, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

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    If we go straight to heaven when we die could some one explain what these scriptures could mean then????

    John 3:13
    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.



    Acts 2:34
    For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    (That was after the resurrection.)


    What do these scriptures mean if we go straight to heaven when we die?

    This scripture too.


    John 14
    1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, "I WILL COME AGAIN", and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


    How come it says that we will be with Jesus after he returns to get us???

    Wouldn’t that be referring to the second coming and why come and get us if we are with him as soon as we die.

    Please, just these three scriptures, what do they mean if we do go to heaven when we die???

    Don’t use other scripture like the thief on the cross because Jesus didn’t ascend to his father for another 3 days so that is in question too, with many other scriptures that people use, so I am more interested in what these three scriptures mean if we go to heaven at death than I am about other scripture.

    So, please, anyone care to simple explain what these 3 scriptures mean without diverting to other scriptures and then leaving the questions unanswered.

    I find that it always happens when you want a straight answer, people divert the conversation to avoid the answers.

    Please don`t do that on this thread. :)

    Jeopardy :)
     
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  2. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Jeopardy,

    I don't have much time to explain but I think John 13:3 is clearly saying that no man ascended into heaven, not even david (Acts 2:34). But at the same time 2 Kings 2:11 sounds like it contradicts it =)

    Anyway, I'm a preterist and preterists believe that we can go directly to heaven after we die, since we believe that hades has been swallowed up (Rev 20:13).

    Also I believe John 14:1-3 has some relation to the following passages: Dan 2:44, Luke 1:33, Mark 9:1, Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22-4, Rev 21:1 :)

    By the way, I believe Gal 4:21-31 and Heb 8:7-13 are referring to the same thing =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,527
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    No one gets to go to heaven until after the 2nd coming.

    John 14:3 makes it perfectly clear, that Jesus must "come again" before he can receive us unto Himself, so we can be where He is.

    If you believe Christians go to heaven when we die, and also believe the second coming has not yet happened, your belief is in direct contradiction to what scritpure teaches.


    YBIC,
    P70
     
  4. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hey Parousia70

    I'm curious to know: What about 2 Kings 2:11? =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  5. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>John 3:13
    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.

    Only son's of God go to Heaven, those who are conformed to the image of Jesus. Jesus became the son of man, when He died in our place. So He is the ONLY son of man who ever has or ever will go to Heaven. Before you are born again, your a son of man, after your born again, you become a son of God.

    Also this passage talks about the way things were before Jesus died on the cross. Most believe that before Jesus hung on the cross, there was a place in hell called paradise where the saints of God went. After He died on the cross, then they were able to be set free and then they could ascend to Heaven. At least that is what I have always been taught. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  6. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    hoonbabe ,
    you label preterisim as though it were a christian cult or something :scratch:

    parousia70,
    I agree with you hear 100%.

    I do not believe in heaven after death. I believe that we will be with jesus at his return.

    I respect your beliefs parousia and agree with alot , and I mean a lot , of what you say , but I do not agree that jesus has already returned and raised the dead.

    maybe we could address that on another thread though.

    John,
    but what about david :scratch:

    he was in the grave still , well after jesus had risen up into the heavens.

    so what does that mean john :confused:
     
  7. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    I'm not trying to be a hog on space here but I thought you might find this of use. I had a written discussion on this very subject with a good preacher friend of mine. We liked to jab at each other a little bit for fun. The main differnce between my view and his view is that he beleives that you go to heaven when you die but you just dont have your glorified body yet until the second coming. Just remember that wheather we go to Paradise or heaven when we die doesnt effect our salvation on bit. By the way this will take 2 post.

    Dear brother John

    I’m writing this letter to you to give you a better understanding of where you go when you die. As you know it says in 2Tim 3:16-17 16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. This is exactly what I plan on doing with God’s word. I truly believe that even an well educated man with great biblical knowledge can over look “small things” that can make a difference in how a scripture should be interpreted. I hope that you are not stuck in your ways and will seriously consider what I present to you. Of course I expect you to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and search the scriptures to find out whether or not what I present is so.

    Is Paradise heaven?
    You have stated to me that Paradise is heaven. You have also continually asked me “Where is Jesus at now”? I answered in heaven at the right hand side of God the father.
    Now here is my question to you? When Jesus died on the cross and lay in the tomb where was the father? I would think that you would have to answer in heaven. Where was Jesus during this time? Answer: In Paradise with the thief. Luke 23:43 We know that even Abraham is there. Luke 16:19-31 In Act 2:31 we see that Jesus soul would not be left in Hades. Instead he would be exalted to the right hand of God, which is in heaven. You see this says the Haden realm, which includes Paradise and Hades, is separate and apart from heaven where the father is. You might ask, “How do you know that the father wasn’t there?” The answer: John 20: 17Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’
    Jesus soul has returned from Paradise back to his body. Did you see what Jesus said? He says, he hasn’t ascended to the father yet. Now I ask you if the father had been in Paradise, which you call heaven, then Jesus is a liar and we know that’s not true. Let,s add John 3:13“No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. You see no one that has died on the earth has ascended to heaven except Jesus. All the people that have died their souls have went to Paradise and not Heaven. So then, we have to conclude Paradise is not heaven but is a holding place to keep the souls of the dead until the final judgment day.

    We enter into heaven at the Second coming.

    Before I explain your misunderstanding in 2Cor 5:8 I want you to considered some other passages. You know as well as I do that if you run across a passage that seems to be difficult consult what the rest of the bible has to say about it and you can then gain a better understanding of what it is saying. Lets begin with 1Corth 15. I think you should read the whole thing but for time sake I will just touch on some of the key verses.

    20But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

    One of the main themes in this Chapter is teaching that Christ was first to be raised from the dead and made alive forever in heaven and that we also can know that when we die that we can enter into heaven and live forever with Jesus at his Second coming.
    52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
    55 “O Death, where is your sting?
    O Hades, where is your victory?”

    It seems to me that this is saying that in order for us to enter into heaven we must have our corruptible mortal body transformed into an incorruptible immortal body. We know that this happens at the 2nd coming.

    1John 2: 2Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

    Philippians 3:20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

    Colossians 3:4When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

    We can see with these 3 verse that when Jesus comes that we will be transformed into the same type of being that Jesus is that it will not happen until the 2nd coming. We will not enter into heaven until the second coming. See 1Peter 1:3-5

    Read this next verse very carefully
    John 14:2“In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

    Did you catch it. Jesus says plainly here that he has gone to prepare a place for us. But, it wont be until his second coming that we will be with him in his presence. See Also Matt. 24:35 ; 13:43

    I believe I have proven my point with all the evidence that I have presented so far. Now we will take a look at the verses in 2 Cor. 5.

    First of all we have to look at what this chapter is talking about as whole. If you read verse 8 by itself without considering the context its meaning is lost. The first part of this chapter is about how much they are looking forward to going to heaven where they can have “a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” With this in mind lets take a look at verse 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. First they say, “ We are confident” they also say this in verse 6. Why are the confident? Verse 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. In the next part of verse 8 they are basically saying that they would much rather be absent from their (mortal) body and to be present with the Lord. This is where a person can misunderstand what is being said if this section is taken out of context. We need to read the first 5 verses.
    1For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

    You see when Paul says that he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord this is just a summary of what he has been talking about in verse 1-5. Paul knows in order to receive this house not made with hands to be clothed with the habitation which is from heaven that he will have to be absent from the mortal body (See verse 4) in order to enter into heaven. We also know by John 14:2 that we will not receive the habitation which is from heaven until Jesus comes again. I think that all Christians would rather be in this prepared place in heaven absent from the mortal body and in the presence of the Lord that will occur at the 2nd coming.

    9Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

    This verse is basically saying that they are going to make it their goal to be pleasing God no matter if they were absent of the Lord or present with the Lord. When we finally get to heaven at the 2nd coming we are going to have the same desire to please God as we did when we were absent from the Lord.
    10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    This verse tells us that when Christ does come that we all will appear before Christ. If we have been a righteous people then we get to enter into heaven. If we have been an unrighteous people we get to enter into hell. See John 5:28 You see it is not until this final judgment that we either enter into heaven or we enter into hell.

    I hope that have opened your eyes to your misconception of where we go when we die.
     
  8. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Brother John, I appreciate your response to letter. You stated that MANY other great preachers hold my view and that you refuse to be put into a mold. Well, this is one time you should be in the mold. You should understand one thing about me. I did not get my view from a preacher I got my view from the bible. If I did not think for myself and just took what a preacher tells me for granted I would not be having this discussion with you. I would just blindly say “your absolutely right we go to heaven when we die” I have no problem changing my views if I discover through my study of Gods word that I was wrong or maybe didn’t have the full picture. I have had a chance to study our topic of conversation more deeply and still find your view greatly lacking evidence. I can see where you coming from on your view but I hope that I will be able to explain better this time why your view just doesn’t work. You stated how you were impressed how my view changed from the other day. The reason it changed was because I got to study the verses more. When I verbal answered I was just spouting things off. It was not a definite view. However what I’m about to present is my definite view at this time.

    The main promise throughout the New Testament is that if we become Christians and lead a faithful life unto death then we will receive an incorruptible body and be with God in heaven at the second coming. However, to the best of my knowledge there isn’t a promise of us getting to go to heaven while we are separate from the body. I know that you will contend that 2Corth. 5:1-8 and Phil. 3:21-23 teach this promise however I will show that they do not.

    When Jesus was in Paradise He was not in Heaven. You cannot produce a verse for me that even remotely hints at the father being in paradise. When Jesus tells Mary that he hasn’t ascended to the father that means that when he was in paradise the father wasn’t there. Therefore Paradise can’t be heaven. It doesn’t matter if Christ was in or out of his body. If his soul ascended to heaven as you claim then he lied to Mary. Yes I do agree that when he was talking to Mary that he was talking about his ascension with his resurrected body and soul after all his soul had came back into his body from paradise and not heaven. The bible does not teach Jesus ascending multiple times to the father but just one time.

    You stated that “If you didn’t have a body you could enter heaven.” You say this quickly but you cant produce any verses that teach this idea. However, you can find a ton of verses showing that you have to have a incorruptible body in order to enter into heaven. Your using tactics like the denominations do. They say well the bible doesn’t say this specifically so it ok to do it. John if I told you that you had to use a key to get in the door. This means that you have to use a key to get in the door. Sure you could dream up all kinds of way to get in the door like break it down or pick the lock, but that’s not what I said. You are adding to Gods word when you say that you can enter into heaven without a body. I gave a long list of verses that talk about being getting to be Christ at his second coming getting our house not made with hands. So I will not list them again since you know them all already.

    I disagree that Jhon 14:2 is just talking about those that would be alive. It does not make this statement in the verse anywhere. Jesus simply states that when he comes back he will take them back with him so they can be with him. When Jesus comes back he will both raise the dead first then the living in the sky. This is what 1Thess. 16-17 teaches. Notice that Jesus descends from heaven first then the dead in Christ rise first. If you soul was going to be in heaven without a body but you could still see Jesus or be with him in heaven don’t you think he would of mentioned such a thing. This would be a very good thing to bring out if it were so but you just cant find this anywhere in the bible.

    You don’t like the idea of being in this holding place without being with Christ because it doesn’t seem comforting to you. Don’t let your personal preference influence your biblical interpretation. Now lets tie in Phil. 3: 21-23 where Paul says he has a desire to depart to be with Christ. Now you would agree that Paul had been through a lot by now and had served the Lord well. If I was in Paul shoes I would be ready to depart and be with Christ to. The question is what does he mean by to be with Christ. I think this is very simple to explain. If you are a Christian and you are in saved condition like Paul was. If you die today you know that you will be with Christ when he comes back. If however if you are not right with God when you die you will not be with Christ. It is very comforting to me that if I die and my soul goes to paradise and I see all these great prophets and martyrs of Jesus I will know that my election is sure that I finished the race that I will get to be with Jesus at his Second coming. This is why Paradise is called a place of comfort. No, Jesus isn’t there but you know that you will be with him for sure. You just have to wait until the Judgment day to receive your reward in heaven. I have a feeling that our perception of time in Paradise will differ greatly from our time now. Of course that’s just mere speculation. So you see Paul is not saying here that his soul would physical be with Christ in heaven. He just knows that he is right with God and if he dies he will not have to suffer in his worn out body and can be in Paradise where he knows that he will be with Christ when he comes.

    Ok now lets move onto 2 Corth. 5. I will break this down verse by verse so that there isn’t any confusion.

    1For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    Paul is basically saying that he knows that if his body is destroyed and he dies that when Christ comes he will receive a new incorruptible body not made with hands.

    2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
    Here Paul is saying that he desires and looks forward to have this incorruptible body. We as christens today should also desire greatly for this, because it would be a great thing to be with the Lord in our new body. This is what our faith is all about, looking for the time we spend all eternity with God.

    3if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
    Here Paul is saying that if we have received our new incorruptible body this means that we have been worth of it . Where it says “we shall not be found naked” means that we will not be without Christ. Naked here does not mean with out a body it means with out Christ. If we are not in a saved condition when Christ comes we will be found Naked because we will not be clothed with him. The idea of being Naked is being shamed. You have been found swimming in your sins. See Rev. 3:17-18 and 1John 2:28 You can not produce a single verse that says being Naked is without a body.

    4For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
    Paul wants to make it completely clear that even though he has been beaten, stoned, and almost killed for preaching Jesus that he is not groaning to be without Christ but groaning to be with Christ in his new body. Unclothed is referring right back to Naked in verse 3. I’m sure some of the people there probably were thinking that Paul was wishing he could stop preaching Christ so maybe he wouldn’t have to go through more tribulation. Paul was willing to go all the way and die for the cause of Christ so he made sure in this verse to make sure there wasn’t any misunderstanding about his love for Christ. Whenever you have been baptized you have put on Christ you have been clothed by him. If you have not been baptized you are Naked because you have not been clothed with Christ. So the verse would read like this “Our bodies have been greatly burdened and we groan, not because we want take Christ out of our lives so that we can escape this burden. No, we that have put on Christ want to be further clothed with our new immortal body so that our old corruptible body will be swallowed up.

    5Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
    The Holy Spirit was giving to prove that the word from God was true. Through the word we know that we must be faithful until we die in order to receive or incorruptible body.

    6So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
    This is simply saying that while we are here in our immortal bodies we are absent from the Lord. That is we can not see him.

    7For we walk by faith, not by sight.
    This verse basically tells why they are confident in verse 6 and 8 and this is what Christianity is all about.

    8We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
    This verse is just repeating what has already been said in the previous verses. This seems so very clear to me how can you possible misunderstand this verse within it context. Paul is again saying that he would much rather be absent from his current mortal body and to be present with the Lord being in his immortal body. Granted if I took the verse out and read it by itself then yes it would appear to sound like Paul was saying that his soul would be with the Lord. You can make the bible teach just about anything using this method. We know exactly what this verse is saying based on what the previous verses have been going on an on about. You need to read verses 2,3, and 4 again. This verse is nothing more than just saying the same thing one more time. As many times as Paul repeated himself it makes me wonder if the people he was writing to were a little slow. It also kind of reminds me of Sarah. She will ask me a question and I will answer it. She won’t understand my answer so I have to tell the same thing again just in different way. This is what Paul does in these verses.

    9Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
    If we pleasing unto God while we are here we will also be pleasing unto him when we are present with him.

    10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
    We definitely want to be well pleasing to God because we will all be judged.
     
  9. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Cougan,

    Are you having a conversation with john because I can’t see john’s posts??

    John, do you have me on ignore and if so, why?? (I suppose ya wouldn’t see that. :D )


    Cougan,
    Don’t listen to what a friend preacher says, study and find out for your self if what he says is true.

    I will help you :D

    First, since you missed the objective on this thread and I haven’t had a response on it for a long time I will go with the flow and find out why you and your preacher friend believe that.

    Maybe you could show me some of these scriptures that say we go to heaven when we die. Can you do that for me:pray:

    And maybe you could read these scriptures "first" and keep them in mind and explain what they mean considering that things are the way you and your preacher believe they are.


    Genesis 2:7
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Genesis 3:19
    In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Everyone loves to say ,”yea , that’s just the body that goes to dust. The thing is , the scripture doesn`t go on to say he receives our soul , it says that he receives our spirit which is simply the breath of life.



    Daniel 12:2
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    “They sleep in the dust, not in heaven.”


    Deuteronomy 31:16
    And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;



    These scripture make it clear that the promise is the resurrection from the dead and that when we are dead we stay in the grave in the earth until Jesus returns to get us.
    My favourite is this one from job in the Old Testament


    Job 7:21
    And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? For now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

    Why would job say to god, that god wont find him because he would be dead? If he would have been with god after death.


    Job 14:12
    So man Leith down, and raiseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    Always notice how it says heavens as though it is talking of the sky or universe, not some spiritual place. It says heavenssss.
    They are every were in every chapter of the bible but not once does it literally say that we go to heaven when we die.

    Job 17
    15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
    16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when we rest together is in the dust.

    Job 34:15
    All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

    Psalm 104:29
    Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

    Ecclesiastes 3:20
    All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    The spirit is not the soul of a man but rather the breath of life that god puts in a body and that creates a living soul. The soul goes out like a light when the globe (body ) brakes and dies because the electricity (breath of life , spirit) could no longer flow through that vessel.

    So the soul goes out like a light and our names are written in the book of life or the books of rememberance for the day we all shall raise up out of the dust in a unification of our body and gods spirit and our light will come back on and so our soul will live .

    Hey cougan, I could go on with many just like them but it has become obvious what the old testament Hebrews believed and even though Christians like to believe that only the body dies but the soul goes to heaven and this all happened after Jesus rose from the dead and freed them but there is no scripture for that because job said,"until the heavens be no more" which would be Judgment day and peter said after Jesus rose that "david did not ascend to heaven"


    Cougan, could you clear these things up for me please because I just don’t see it the way you and your preacher say it is so one of us has a false teaching.

    BULWARK
     
  10. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    John 3's comment by Jesus was in the context of someone going to heaven to learning something, and then coming to earth to teach what was learned there. No man has done that... but Jesus was there and He came to teach us.

    When Jesus returns to raise the dead, consciousness comes back to the resurrected, then Jesus takes them to where He was before He came to earth the 2nd time.

    John 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
     
  11. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hi Christian,
    I agree with you and it is funny that Jesus would say this at a time when the books of Enoch were common reading among the Hebrews around Jesus time and in the book of Enoch, Enoch did go to heaven with Michael and spoke to god and came back to tell of all he new.

    Jude calls him, Enoch, 7th from Adam prophesies and says," “ and goes on to directly quote from these writings. So I wonder what means in the light of this knowledge 2002 Christian??

    Hear is a link to the book of Enoch, which can also be seen all through Christian theology. Read that chapter of Jude.


    So again???

    How can Jesus say that now man has ascended to heaven in light of the fact of these enochian Hebrew scriptural writings?



    http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm

    this will help validate the claim and it is about the books of enoch.
    http://www.bible2000.org/lostbooks/enochs2.htm



    this whole thing changes the idea of this or was jesus trying to tell us that the books of enoch wern`t authentic by saying that no man (enoch) had done this accept christ.

    but then why is the new testament shaped around the book of enoch???
     
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