no kneeling??!

[isabella1]

Re: Should we kneel during the consecration?
You are correct that a common posture during the Mass is a sign of unity but it is your friends who are observing the correct posture (kneeling) during the consecration.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) states, “A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants” (GIRM 42).

To that end, the GIRM instructs, “[the faithful] should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason” (GIRM 43).

Also, not for the sake of unity but out of reverence, the GIRM instructs, “When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence…” (GIRM 160).

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I don't think he knows what organically means. Something that spreads because of the individual decisions of persons and parishes is spreading organically.

 

[isabella1]

I see. Didn't catch that one. You are right. Maybe it was a typo??? *Shrug* But the meat and potatoes of the point is there.

 

[Anhelyna]

I know Kirk means Church, but in common speech, you don't use it in place of Church but rather to refer to a specific area of the church. Right?

Yes and no

This is really horribly off topic - so forgive me folks .

Here the usage of Kirk in general speech is both for the people [ as in 'we are the Church ' ] and the actual edifice [ eg ' I'm off to the kirk ' ]

Hope that makes it a wee bit clearer

 

[Fantine]

If at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, how much more reason do we have to bend our knee before Jesus who is truly and substantially present in every tabernacle and at every consecration during the Mass? Jesus is just as present in the Eucharist as if He were walking down the aisle at Mass. Imagine meeting Jesus face to face because, in fact, we do meet Him face to face every time we go to Mass, and then imagine what you would do.
.

I have always felt that the Jesus of the Gospels would prefer a hug.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, as a discipline, it can change. But as long as the Church teaches that we should do it, we should do it unless for the reasons the Church says that we would not need to do it. If one is humble, they shoudn't have a problem with kneeling down before the Creator of the universe. He was able to humble Himself for us even unto death on a cross, so why do so many of us complain that we have to kneel before Him? We should do like the Nike commercial and just do it. The Church is not asking us to do something unreasonable.
.

And neither are the parishioners of the parish in question, doing anything unreasonable.

But the Church teaches that we are to follow the guidance of our Bishop.

If a particular Church, such as the one in this thread, deems it impractical to kneel, and that Bishop has allowed them to stand, then it is acceptable and you should do as they do, when you visit.

Sometimes its a lack of humility, to do different than what the congregation is doing, because a person may seem themselves as better Catholic than they are. Its a sign of egotistical pride, rather than humility.

Remember, we're to love our neighbors, just as we love God. Being disrespectful of them, by suggesting that what they are doing is less reverent toward God that you are, is equally disrespecting to God.


Jim

 

[AMDG]

But the Church teaches that we are to follow the guidance of our Bishop.

Thought it was "when the Bishop is in union with the Pope". If it isn't, then might we get another case of the Bishop Arius when he led people astray?

I mean the GIRM is very explicit (and Rome has spoken) so when a Bishop chooses to disobey Church rules, I wonder, are we to be obedient to disobedience?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thought it was "when the Bishop is in union with the Pope". If it isn't, then might we get another case of the Bishop Arius when he led people astray?

I mean the GIRM is very explicit (and Rome has spoken) so when a Bishop chooses to disobey Church rules, I wonder, are we to be obedient to disobedience?

If he's a Bishop in a Catholic Dioceses, he's in union with the Pope, or he would remain Bishop for very long.

The GIRM is specific about the Bishop's authority to direct the norms to be followed in his Dioceses.

We're not talking about a schism or heresy here. Lets stay on the subject of the parish in the OP's post.


Jim

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Thought it was "when the Bishop is in union with the Pope". If it isn't, then might we get another case of the Bishop Arius when he led people astray?

I mean the GIRM is very explicit (and Rome has spoken) so when a Bishop chooses to disobey Church rules, I wonder, are we to be obedient to disobedience?

The GIRM explicitly provides for exceptions, and the list is explicitly not exclusive. The conditions that require an exception are sometimes ongoing, so a bishop is not disobeying the GIRM by sometimes approving an ongoing exception. To accuse the bishop of not being in union with the Pope is a grave offense against charity.

 

[AMDG]

To accuse the bishop of not being in union with the Pope is a grave offense against charity.

Point of order--didn't "accuse". Asked a question. BTW, I think the Bishop Arius did a lot of damage to the point where only those clinging to the Pope were absolutely sure of their actions.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Point of order--didn't "accuse". Asked a question. BTW, I think the Bishop Arius did a lot of damage to the point where only those clinging to the Pope were absolutely sure of their actions.

Poor comparison to use Arius to Bishops today.

The hierarchy structure of the Church back in the early 4th century was much different than what we have today. The structure and understanding of the authority of the Church, was still evolving.

Jim

 

[ThePilgrim]

I have always felt that the Jesus of the Gospels would prefer a hug.

Based on what? I'm honestly curious... Because Jesus in the Gospels says some pretty harsh things, such as when he calls he Pharisees "snake bastards." He loves us with a real and passionate love, but He doesn't seem to come across as very touchy feely.

In Christ,
Sbn John

 

[ThePilgrim]

Hmm... I learned a lot about Catholic kneeling practices from this thread that I never knew before. It has been very interesting.

I have a question that is not at all meant to offend, but is rather a matter of honest curiosity.

Since the 1st Ecumenical Council forbade kneeling on Sundays by means of a universal canon, when was this changed in the West? When did people in the West start to kneel on Sundays? Was this canon changed by a local council in the West, by the pope directly, or just through common custom?

Basically, how old is this practice in the West and how did it come about?

In Christ,
Sbn John

 

[Fantine]

Based on what? I'm honestly curious... Because Jesus in the Gospels says some pretty harsh things, such as when he calls he Pharisees "snake bastards." He loves us with a real and passionate love, but He doesn't seem to come across as very touchy feely.

In Christ,
Sbn John

He lived in poverty among common everyday people.

He didn't ride a donkey when everyone else walked.

He broke bread with people, visited their homes, cried when his friends died.

Does that sound like a God who would want people to fall on their knees when they saw Him?

Perhaps not a hug...

Perhaps a cool glass of water.

Waving some palm branches.

Sitting at His feet and listening as Mary did.

I don't recall any people kneeling before Jesus when He was on earth (the nativity scenes depict Mary and Joseph as kneeling, but, having given birth three times, I know that's a lot of hooey....)

 

[ThePilgrim]

He lived in poverty among common everyday people.

He didn't ride a donkey when everyone else walked.

He broke bread with people, visited their homes, cried when his friends died.

Does that sound like a God who would want people to fall on their knees when they saw Him?

Perhaps not a hug...

Perhaps a cool glass of water.

Waving some palm branches.

Sitting at His feet and listening as Mary did.

I don't recall any people kneeling before Jesus when He was on earth (the nativity scenes depict Mary and Joseph as kneeling, but, having given birth three times, I know that's a lot of hooey....)

Oh, certainly He did (and does!) eat with sinners and love us all with a love and longing beyond human comprehension. I'm not arguing that He is a distant and cold God.

At the same time, the Bible is full of instances of people falling down before Him. The magi did when they visited Him when He was a child, many of the people that Christ healed fell down before Him, the soldiers who went to arrest Jesus fell down... Also, the Apostles on Mt. Tabor fell down when they saw Christ in His glory.

The Old Testament, too, is filled with people showing reverent awe in the presence of the pre-incarnate Christ. When Christ spoke to Moses out of the burning bush, Moses was commanded to remove his sandals and he also hid his face, unable to stand the uncreated glory of God.

Likewise, when the pre-incarnate Christ appeared to Abraham at the Oak of Mamre, Abraham fell on his face.

The love, mercy, compassion, tenderness, and affection of God in no way lessens His majesty or glory or the awe which we creatures should have in His presence... But falling down before Christ isn't a bad thing! To fall down before Him and worship Him and kiss His feet is a matter of great joy!

Christ be with you!
Sbn John

 

[Gwendolyn]

Hmm... I learned a lot about Catholic kneeling practices from this thread that I never knew before. It has been very interesting.

I have a question that is not at all meant to offend, but is rather a matter of honest curiosity.

Since the 1st Ecumenical Council forbade kneeling on Sundays by means of a universal canon, when was this changed in the West? When did people in the West start to kneel on Sundays? Was this canon changed by a local council in the West, by the pope directly, or just through common custom?

Basically, how old is this practice in the West and how did it come about?

In Christ,
Sbn John

I think I read something that said that the practice largely crept in during the middle ages. In the West, during the week, there was often kneeling at Mass - in the Clementine rite, for example, and the Mozarabic rite, which calls for a brief period of kneeling. Those are much earlier rites - 6th century, I think, for the Clementine (maybe 5th). There was obviously an extreme emphasis on sinfulness and penance in the middle ages, and kneeling was understood to be a penitential practice, so I do not find it very surprising that it crept into the Sunday liturgy as well. I would also not be surprised if some of the justification also includes passages that you mentioned in an earlier post, about people falling on their faces and dropping down when they saw the Lord.

Now kneeling is viewed as a reverential thing, not so much penitential.

That said, at my particular parish, we stand and make a profound bow during the consecration.

 

[ThePilgrim]

I think I read something that said that the practice largely crept in during the middle ages. In the West, during the week, there was often kneeling at Mass - in the Clementine rite, for example, and the Mozarabic rite, which calls for a brief period of kneeling. Those are much earlier rites - 6th century, I think, for the Clementine (maybe 5th). There was obviously an extreme emphasis on sinfulness and penance in the middle ages, and kneeling was understood to be a penitential practice, so I do not find it very surprising that it crept into the Sunday liturgy as well. I would also not be surprised if some of the justification also includes passages that you mentioned in an earlier post, about people falling on their faces and dropping down when they saw the Lord.

Now kneeling is viewed as a reverential thing, not so much penitential.

That said, at my particular parish, we stand and make a profound bow during the consecration.

Makes sense... It's probably a little like the Christian name/last name issue for clergy. It's interesting how something can be ancient and yet now viewed as disrespectful.

By the way, by your prayers, the surgery went very well, much better than expected, and I'm now resting and recovering at home. Thank you

In Christ,
Sbn John

 

[AMDG]

Poor comparison to use Arius to Bishops today.

Again, not a comparison--merely an observation in that there have been Bishops that have caused real damage to the Church (and those who blindly follow them and not the Pope who is protected by the Holy Spirit.) The Bishops are only above reproach when they are in union with the Pope. And we know of some Bishops that have allowed many things that are theologically incorrect in their diocese (dancing in Mass, and more). Surely we are not to just follow the lead of those (if we know that they are not in union with the Pope)--are we?

 

[AMDG]

Basically, how old is this practice in the West and how did it come about?

Trying to find an answer to your question. I hope that one of these three articles might give a clue:

Knees to Love Christ

"Why don't they want us to kneel at Mass?"

Every Knee Should Bow [wash my mouth] But When?
(this article says something about Canon 26 speaking of kneeling as an
immemorial custom)

 

[ThePilgrim]

Trying to find an answer to your question. I hope that one of these three articles might give a clue:

Knees to Love Christ

"Why don't they want us to kneel at Mass?"

Every Knee Should Bow [wash my mouth] But When?
(this article says something about Canon 26 speaking of kneeling as an
immemorial custom)

Thank you for posting those articles.

None of them, however, specifically say, though, when and how the earlier custom of standing was changed to kneeling.

I'm really curious about this. According to the early canons, kneeling wasn't just not required, but it was actually forbidden on Sundays... People stood on Sundays and for the period of time after the Paschal feast, in honor of the Resurrection.

How did things change in the west in such a way that now standing is considered rude or disrespectful? And when did that happen?

*liturgical geek's curiosity gets the better of him*

In Christ,
Sbn John