no kneeling??!

[isabella1]

I understand what you are saying Jim. But I do live here in the US, so I follow what the Church tells me to do.

Besides if Jesus were to come before me in a human form, I would be on the ground face down before him. There is no way in any country I would ever disrespect our Lord by not kneeling before him, no matter what form he is in before me. It is just common sense that it would be a disrespect toward him.

 

[Joshua G.]

They don't (or at least didn't) as rule in the Saginaw Diocese (Michigan) (although that was under a more liberal bishop who has since been replaced by a quite orthodox one). My friend there (we were both there as college students although we went to the off-campus one, because the campus one was nuts at the time) came from a diocese whre they did and he siad that he was so offended because he just thought they were flaming liberals so he wold kneel. He is now in seminary and learned taht that was a diocesan decision as is always to be respected (when in Rome.... no pun intended lol).

Anyway, although you can tell what my belif is, my thought is not to get hung up or easily offended by little differences like these (not that the OP seems to be). As essential and important as physical participation is in worship, we learn more from humility than we can learn from 100 prostrations in front of the Host.

The real question is always, where is right belief (and then you just pray really hard for the parishes that get wacky with their worship LOL)

Josh

 

[Maggie893]

Hand holding is not prohibited. We do it at my parish, during the Lords prayer.

Jim

No you are absolutely correct. There is no prohibition to holding hands during this time. Unfortunately it is a "new" posture added to the Mass in some place but not in others thereby separating parishes rather than uniting them. It also has a tendency to make new people uncomfortable so I'm not one to participate in it.

 

[Anhelyna]

Please folk remember

we are NOT Easter Rite Catholics , nor are we Eastern Rite Catholics

we ARE Eastern Catholics

We do not kneel on Sundays [ with a few exceptions ] because Sunday is a Resurrection Day full of joy , and we hold kneeling to be penitential so it is not appropriate then.

Yes we will kneel for a Divine Liturgy during the week - well at least for parts of it

 

[Joshua G.]

Hand holding is not prohibited. We do it at my parish, during the Lords prayer.

Jim

I dont mean this at ALL as a criticism but I was just curious, is this tradition based on an ancient one or is it moreso developped recently in an effort to express the Church as family?

 

[Maggie893]

Please folk remember

we are NOT Easter Rite Catholics , nor are we Eastern Rite Catholics

we ARE Eastern Catholics

We do not kneel on Sundays [ with a few exceptions ] because Sunday is a Resurrection Day full of joy , and we hold kneeling to be penitential so it is not appropriate then.

Yes we will kneel for a Divine Liturgy during the week - well at least for parts of it

This is a great point. Roman Catholics use kneeling as a sign of penitence as well as a sign of respect and honor. And I guess sometimes I feel a mix of both!

The intent of kneeling during the Liturgy of the Eucharist is to honor Christ who is present.

That is not to say that someone not kneeling doesn't honor Christ. It's just our common, unified form of worship.

 

[Joshua G.]

A devout Catholic friend of mine theorized (and read) that this western/estern difference was that in the West you always kneeled before a king and in the East you always stood before royalty? Has anyone else read or heard that?

 

[Maggie893]

A devout Catholic friend of mine theorized (and read) that this western/estern difference was that in the West you always kneeled before a king and in the East you always stood before royalty? Has anyone else read or heard that?

I hadn't heard that but it sounds logical.

 

[MariaRegina]

I have heard that too, Joshua.

In fact, the Dominicans are more like the East because they bow instead of genuflect.
They were the ones who pointed out that historical difference.

 

[Gwendolyn]

I dont mean this at ALL as a criticism but I was just curious, is this tradition based on an ancient one or is it moreso developped recently in an effort to express the Church as family?

I feel like it is a new thing to "express the Church as family" - you put it nicely I would not always be so kind... I do not like that practice. *zips mouth shut*

 

[Joshua G.]

I'm not into it, I think just because i'm not used to it. But in theory nothing about the practice bothrs me and is even attractive. Whenever I am visiting a Catholic Church though, I do it with a smile. When in Rome... (yeah, pun intended there )

Joshua

 

[Maggie893]

I dont mean this at ALL as a criticism but I was just curious, is this tradition based on an ancient one or is it moreso developped recently in an effort to express the Church as family?

This was, to my knowledge, started post VII. The idea, at least what I've been told by supportive priests, is that it shows a united community before Christ.

The criticisms come in many forms but the primary one is that we are not unified by our own act of holding hands but we are united by Christ in the Eucharist which at this point in the Mass we have not yet received. Additionally it puts the focus on those around us rather than on Christ.

It was a new occurrance to me when I came back to the Church after a 15 year absence and watching how it distracts folks and how it makes others some new, some not, uncomfortable, I just don't see a need in it. I also like that the Mass is the same everywhere and this prevents that unity across parishes when some do it and others don't.

 

[Joshua G.]

This was, to my knowledge, started post VII. The idea, at least what I've been told by supportive priests, is that it shows a united community before Christ.

The criticisms come in many forms but the primary one is that we are not unified by our own act of holding hands but we are united by Christ in the Eucharist which at this point in the Mass we have not yet received. Additionally it puts the focus on those around us rather than on Christ.

It was a new occurrance to me when I came back to the Church after a 15 year absence and watching how it distracts folks and how it makes others some new, some not, uncomfortable, I just don't see a need in it. I also like that the Mass is the same everywhere and this prevents that unity across parishes when some do it and others don't.

I am not saying the follwing to take away from those criticisms and were I Catholic I might share in them. To play contrarian's advocate, however, I would think that those that initiated the practice would not suggest that holding hands unifies the Church, but rather is meant to remind the Church that they are unified (or they should be) in mind and spirit as a spiritual family. I would have a hard time believing that they thought people should believe that this act actually unifies them. I could be wrong though.

Joshua

 

[MariaRegina]

. . . we are united by Christ in the Eucharist

Amen. Amen. Amen.

 

[Maggie893]

I am not saying the follwing to take away from those criticisms and were I Catholic I might share in them. To play contrarian's advocate, however, I would think that those that initiated the practice would not suggest that holding hands unifies the Church, but rather is meant to remind the Church that they are unified (or they should be) in mind and spirit as a spiritual family. I would have a hard time believing that they thought people should believe that this act actually unifies them. I could be wrong though.

Joshua

You may be right. I honestly am not one for trying to place "blame". I am certain that a lot of the changes that have occurred in the Church have been done with the best of intentions.

I have a lot of friends that think the hand holding thing is just fine and I have friends that go on tirades over it. I'm just not of either ilk. I don't hold hands in a parish that does unless it would be uncharitable to deny someone's outstretched hand.

 

[MariaRegina]

You may be right. I honestly am not one for trying to place "blame". I am certain that a lot of the changes that have occurred in the Church have been done with the best of intentions.

I have a lot of friends that think the hand holding thing is just fine and I have friends that go on tirades over it. I'm just not of either ilk. I don't hold hands in a parish that does unless it would be uncharitable to deny someone's outstretched hand.

Haven't some bishops discouraged hand-holding/hand-shaking in church with this swine flu pandemic?

At the sign of peace, many Catholic parishioners just bow to each other. We also do that in the Orthodox Church just prior to the Anaphora as we greet each other with "Glory to Jesus Christ. Glory forever!"

 

[Joshua G.]

We don't do that at our parish or a lot of parishes I have gone to. I have seen this done at some OC Parishes and I wish all OC parishes reinstituted this as it is, from my understanding, an ancient custom... and it makes a LOT of sense. That's why I was wondering if the hand-holding thing was from the same historic vein.

Joshua

 

[Maggie893]

Haven't some bishops discouraged hand-holding/hand-shaking in church with this swine flu pandemic?

At the sign of peace, many Catholic parishioners just bow to each other. We also do that in the Orthodox Church just prior to the Anaphora as we greet each other with "Glory to Jesus Christ. Glory forever!"

Actually in my diocese the Bishop requested that there be no hand holding unless it was of the same household, no passing of peace so the priests just skipped over that part after they said peace be with you, no shaking hands with the priest upon exiting the church and no reception of the blood of Christ during communion.

We did that for about 4-6 weeks during the height of the scare but it's all back to normal now. Some folks on OBOB here though said that there diocese didn't do anything like that so I guess it was sporadic around the country.

 

[ThePilgrim]

I finally went to my first non-monastery Catholic church today, St. Mark the Evangelist. I was a bit surprised, there was NO kneeling, at all... and I had always thought Catholics kneeled! They don't at the monastery but I thought that was just some Benedictine thing.

Is that normal?

Other than that I feel ambivalent about it. Pretty sure it is the biggest church I've ever been to, I found the singing really weird - and I found the singing at the Episcopal church I visited a couple of weeks ago really weird, too. A couple times at an Orthodox church and everything else just seems weird!

Maybe they were following the canons of the first Ecumenical Council which forbid kneeling on Sundays?

I'm not sure. I don't really know anything about what kneeling practices are among Catholics, so that's just a guess. Putting the best construction on things, they could have been trying to follow Church Tradition.

Grace and peace,
Sbn John

 

[AMDG]

When in Rome...

Well, actually some asked Rome and the answer came down in a Dubium that they didn't mean to restrict us "to the letter" and it is really our choice to kneel, sit, or stand. (In the old GIRM, the U.S. Bishops actually received an indult from Rome to kneel during the entire Eucharistic prayer--not just at the Consecration as is the rule in the universal Church. In 2002, when the new GIRM came out, some places wanted us to only stand, so Rome was questioned about it and we were allowed to follow our conciences in this.)

As to the "handholding", it's not forbidden in the GIRM and nothing is said about it if it is voluntary and sort of "spur of the moment", however it does seem a little bit "inappropriate". Receiving the Eucharist is the main symbol of our unity--not holding hands. (Maybe when the new translation comes out, they'll move the "kiss of peace" Our Father--where the handholding usually takes place--to another part of the Mass so it won't overshadow Jesus' unity.)

Sources of this is the GIRM (naturally) and several articles on www.adoremus.org.