no kneeling??!

[Aesjn]

I finally went to my first non-monastery Catholic church today, St. Mark the Evangelist. I was a bit surprised, there was NO kneeling, at all... and I had always thought Catholics kneeled! They don't at the monastery but I thought that was just some Benedictine thing.

Is that normal?

Other than that I feel ambivalent about it. Pretty sure it is the biggest church I've ever been to, I found the singing really weird - and I found the singing at the Episcopal church I visited a couple of weeks ago really weird, too. A couple times at an Orthodox church and everything else just seems weird!

 

[isabella1]

No its not normal! I wouldn't go there then. Are you sure it was a Catholic Church? Doesn't sound Catholic to me. If it is a CC then there are abuses going on.

 

[Aesjn]

It says Catholic, it "seemed" Catholic... they had a monk (I think, I was way in the back and hard to tell) from Bethlehem there to talk and he seemed pretty Catholic.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Some churches don't have kneelers. In college, the campus Mass was hosted in the "spirituality room" in one of the buildings. There wasn't any kneelers there--only a bunch of (oddly comfortable) fold-up chairs. Given the amount of space in the room and the fact that there were no kneelers, the only alternative was to stand during the parts where kneeling would normally be done.

 

[Aesjn]

Also, maybe I'm wrong about this I really have no clue it just seemed strange.

When it came time for people to take the eucharist a lady gave them the body, then they went to another lady and she had the chalice (it looked like there was one lady with the body in the middle of the church, and then two with chalices to each side of her since there were so many people). I thought only the priest was to be holding the chalice and body of Christ?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Also, maybe I'm wrong about this I really have no clue it just seemed strange.

When it came time for people to take the eucharist a lady gave them the body, then they went to another lady and she had the chalice (it looked like there was one lady with the body in the middle of the church, and then two with chalices to each side of her since there were so many people). I thought only the priest was to be holding the chalice and body of Christ?

Eucharistic ministers can give out both. Different churches do it different ways. The church at the town I just moved to doesn't even give out the blood. They have one cup that is taken by the priests. There's just too many people in the church (it is *very* large) to make it feasible, I guess.

 

[Aesjn]

Some churches don't have kneelers. In college, the campus Mass was hosted in the "spirituality room" in one of the buildings. There wasn't any kneelers there--only a bunch of (oddly comfortable) fold-up chairs. Given the amount of space in the room and the fact that there were no kneelers, the only alternative was to stand during the parts where kneeling would normally be done.

Well, the building is purpose-built... so I don't think there could be any argument that they couldn't have fit them. The seating arrangement is a concentric bows of chairs... they could have just as easily got proper chairs with kneelers.

 

[Maggie893]

Based on the link you have I believe it is a Catholic church. A lot of Church's that call themselves "a welcoming and diverse community" are often of a more of a "liberal" bent. Less Traditional in worship but very outreach oriented as this parish appears to be. You'll likely find more modern music in the Mass and the thing with kneeling (and hand holding) also is more prevalent in parishes like this.

We had a lot of parishes up here that would stand during the Eucharistic prayers but when our current Bishop arrived that became less common. I still see it and the hand holding thing from time to time in different parishes. It's not an approved means of participating in worship but it did become "trendy" for a while.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Well, the building is purpose-built... so I don't think there could be any argument that they couldn't have fit them. The seating arrangement is a concentric bows of chairs... they could have just as easily got proper chairs with kneelers.

Well it's not the norm for sure, but I don't think there's any straight-up rigorously defined requirements for kneeling. You normally do it, but I'm sure there's a reason this church does not. I would just ask them. No one here (unless they go to that church...) would probably be able to tell you why it's happening.

 

[Antigone]

I've been to masses where only the priests drank the Blood and the Host was distributed among the parishioners, but I've never been to a mass where there was no kneeling.

 

[Aesjn]

Oh, yes there was hand holding too...

The music was just piano which didn't seem very strange.

Actually, I hate kneeling - the one time I went to an Episcopal church and did the kneeling afterwards I could barely walk! My legs got very messed up for an hour or so... normal kneeling on the grounddoesn't do it, but kneeling on the kneeler messed me up good.

 

[Maggie893]

Also, maybe I'm wrong about this I really have no clue it just seemed strange.

When it came time for people to take the eucharist a lady gave them the body, then they went to another lady and she had the chalice (it looked like there was one lady with the body in the middle of the church, and then two with chalices to each side of her since there were so many people). I thought only the priest was to be holding the chalice and body of Christ?

I get a little frustrated with this as well at times. The Priest is the primary server of the body and blood of Christ. It sounds like this parish is "into" their community. You'll often find priests that have an agenda that is about making the parish community more active in the Mass. I understand where they are coming from but to take such an agenda, they often overstep the Church teachings in various matters and this is one of those matters.

Back on the kneeling thing, I've been to many Masses in the outdoors, gymnasiums and other places with no kneelers, I just kneel on the floor. The old Cathedrals in Europe weren't built with kneelers either but everyone knelt during the liturgy of the Eucharist.

 

[Maggie893]

Actually there is a very specific rule about kneeling during the liturgy of the Eucharist. My Bishop actually mandate that all parishes print it in the bulletins to prevent further abuse.

If someone has a physical condition that prevents them from kneeling they are exceptioned, otherwise all should be kneeling except for the priest(s)

I'll find it.

 

[Aesjn]

Hmm, now I feel kinda upset. I have been in a rather atheistic mood lately... but I've felt drawn to go to church the last few days, and when I went it just felt "wrong" somehow. I wish I had gone to a church that was doing things the way they're supposed to.

 

[Maggie893]

This is from the GIRM:

43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest
approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while
the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful;
from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the
end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are
proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking
place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after
Communion is observed.
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or
21
recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on
occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other
good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects
after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop
determines otherwise.53
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the
faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to
whatever is indicated in the Missal.

I will say that if I go to a Mass where people are doing things contrary to the teaching, I will follow what they do unless it really grates against everything I know. For instance, if there is only an extraordinary EM, I'll receive from them. I prefer to receive by mouth but if it's an EM I usually receive in the hand as that usually fits their comfort level better...etc. It's about retaining communal worship as much as it is the rules but there is a reason the Church has determined what it has and if I were to go there on a regular basis, I'd chat with the priest about it.

 

[Maggie893]

Hmm, now I feel kinda upset. I have been in a rather atheistic mood lately... but I've felt drawn to go to church the last few days, and when I went it just felt "wrong" somehow. I wish I had gone to a church that was doing things the way they're supposed to.

aw. You know while it's all about Jesus at the Mass...human nature sometimes tries hard to make it all about us and some parishes just reflect that more than others. I love a beautiful, traditional Mass but I often go to a less traditional, "popular" Mass just based on time and place. It's all good. Jesus is present and there are Graces poured out on you that you can not see but that will work within you regardless of the form of the Mass.

You might want to stick to that monastery for a while.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You might want to learn about this parish, for its relatively new. In fact, it was basically a store front parish, where Masses were celebrated at one time at Presbyterian and Episcopalian churches.

Perhaps, the tradition of not kneeling came out of this?

At any rate, they built their Church and it was dedicated by the Bishop, back in 2000.

History of St. Mark - St Mark the Evangelist Catholic Church, Tampa, FL - New Tampa Florida Catholic Church - Tampa, FL


It may be that the Bishop is allowing them to stand during the Consecration, out of respect for where they came.

Either way, it sounds like a very community based parish and is probably a great place to worship.


FYI, many Easter Rite Catholics, don't kneel during the consecration. In fact, the proper posture for prayer in the Middle East, is standing.

Don't get too hung up on such things. Be more concerned how Christ centered the Parish is.

Jim

 

[isabella1]

I guess I am hung up then. Because I follow what the Church teaches!

Kneeling is not an insignificant detail. That is why the Church regulates the posture as well as the words of liturgical celebrations. In this case, the rubric in force is from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM). no. 21, requiring that people "should kneel at the Consecration unless prevented by lack of space, large numbers, or other reasonable cause."

This is the norm and has been since at least 1201 A.D. in the Roman Rite. The bishops of the United States of America asked for and received approval from Rome for the congregation to remain kneeling throughout the Canon of the Mass (from the end of the <Sanctus> through the Great Amen) and from the <Agnus Dei> until the Postcommunion prayer. This remains the norm in the U.S. In fact, in June of 1995 at their annual summer meeting, the U.S. bishops rejected a proposal that kneeling at this time should be optional rather than mandatory.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Oh, yes there was hand holding too...

The music was just piano which didn't seem very strange.

Actually, I hate kneeling - the one time I went to an Episcopal church and did the kneeling afterwards I could barely walk! My legs got very messed up for an hour or so... normal kneeling on the grounddoesn't do it, but kneeling on the kneeler messed me up good.

Hand holding is not prohibited. We do it at my parish, during the Lords prayer.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I guess I am hung up then. Because I follow what the Church teaches!

Kneeling is not an insignificant detail. That is why the Church regulates the posture as well as the words of liturgical celebrations. In this case, the rubric in force is from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM). no. 21, requiring that people "should kneel at the Consecration unless prevented by lack of space, large numbers, or other reasonable cause."

This is the norm and has been since at least 1201 A.D. in the Roman Rite. The bishops of the United States of America asked for and received approval from Rome for the congregation to remain kneeling throughout the Canon of the Mass (from the end of the <Sanctus> through the Great Amen) and from the <Agnus Dei> until the Postcommunion prayer. This remains the norm in the U.S. In fact, in June of 1995 at their annual summer meeting, the U.S. bishops rejected a proposal that kneeling at this time should be optional rather than mandatory.

Kneeling is only mandated in US parishes, according to the Bishops.

Monasteries or parishes which are run by religious orders, are allowed to follow the norms set by their order.

I prefer to kneel, but it doesn't make it wrong, when I don't when I attend Mass on retreat at the monastery, where kneeling would eliminate your view of the altar.

Like I said, Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church, don't necessarily kneel, for standing is the proper posture for worship, in their culture, which goes back to the time of Christ. Its most likely that the early Church, did not kneel. Justin Martyr himself wrote, "when it came time for the bread and wine to become that of our Lord Jesus Christ, all gathered would rise up with hands in lifted and rejoice in songs and praise."

Jim