No evidence for Peter in Rome

philadelphos

Sydney
Jun 20, 2019
431
154
Sydney
✟45,144.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
clearly you do not know what you are talking about.
To clarify, Eusebius is credible, however "as a political propagandist, a good courtier, the shrewd and worldly adviser of the Emperor Constantine, the great publicist of the first Christian emperor, the first in a long succession of ecclesiastical politicians, the herald of Byzantinism, a political theologian, a political metaphysician, and a caesaropapist." (Michael J. Hollerich, Religion and Politics in the Writings of Eusebius: Reassessing the First "Court Theologian"; see also Everett Fergusson, The Problem of Eusebius)--That is, Eusebius' is notoriously unreliable, as history is written by the victors, and the first to publish is not always the best.

As Christianity is a Judeo-Christian religion founded upon Torah as given by God to Moses and the children of Israel, any deviation in between the two is concerning. As the Lord said, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (Jn 5:46-47)

Gohei Hata: "The history of Christianity in the western world seems to have been a history of the abuse and misuse of the Bible. Likewise, the reception history of Josephus in the western world seems to have been a history of the abuse and misuse of Josephus. This is at least true of Eusebius of the fourth century. In his Ecclesiastical History, Eusebius abused and misused Josephus to express his anti-Jewish message, which seems to have paved a way for Christian anti-Judaism in subsequent generations." (Gohei Hata, The Abuse and Misuse of Josephus in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Books 2 and 3; see also Eusebius, Christianity, and Judaism)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mosheli

Active Member
Jul 1, 2020
50
17
50
Wellington
✟40,682.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
"Activity and death in Rome; burial place
It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles

"And having gone forth from Baias, they went to Gaitas, and there he taught the word of God. And he stayed there three days in the house of Erasmus, whom Peter sent from Rome to teach the Gospel of God. "
CHURCH FATHERS: The Acts of Peter and Paul

"[Romulus was the traditional founder of Rome. He murdered his brother, Remus.] These are they who promoted you to such glory, that being made a holy nation, a chosen people, a priestly and royal state 1 Peter 2:9, and the head of the world through the blessed Peter's holy See you attained a wider sway by the worship of God than by earthly government. For although you were increased by many victories, and extended your rule on land and sea, yet what your toils in war subdued is less than what the peace of Christ has conquered.

...

VI. Many noble martyrs have sprung from the blood of SS. Peter and Paul
Thither came also your blessed brother-Apostle Paul, the vessel of election Acts 9:15, and the special teacher of the Gentiles, and was associated with you at a time when all innocence, all modesty, all freedom was in jeopardy under Nero's rule."
CHURCH FATHERS: Sermon 82 (Leo the Great)

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Romans (St. Ignatius)

"For some ask, Since Linus and Cletus were bishops in the city of Rome before this Clement, how could Clement himself, writing to James, say that the chair of teaching was handed over to him by Peter? Now of this we have heard this explanation, that Linus and Cletus were indeed bishops in the city of Rome before Clement, but during the lifetime of Peter: that is, that they undertook the care of the episcopate, and that he fulfilled the office of apostleship;"
CHURCH FATHERS: Recognitions, Book I (Clement of Rome)

Google Peter Rome gives us 128,000 results.

God Bless,
daniel


Personally I did look into all the Catholic claims about Peter and the popes since I was almost convinced some years ago and it seemed cool to think that the Pope was the successor of Peter, but I happened to find out in objective historical research that it was based on untruths, starting with finding that the popes list matches the emperors list as especially seen with pope Pius matching emperor Antoninus Pius (exact same name, same dates, and popes/emperors before and after also match). I supposed this will be complained about and removed bny forum staff, but I do not mean any offense to Catholics, I merely think it is fair to be able to post what I think the truth is for others to be able to see boths sides and decide for themselves.
I don't see any Biblical or reliable archaeological/historical/records evidence for Cephas/Peter having been in Rome. The reference to "Babylon" in the epistile of 1 Peter 5:13 is clearly only him passing on greeting(s) from "Babylon", rather than meaning he was also there himself. (The actual greeting he passed on might be mentioned in either Hebrews 13:24, Philippians 4:22, Titus 3:15, 2 Timothy 4:21, and/or 2 John 13, 3 John 14.)
Some of the traditional evidence for Peter being in Rome might really relate to Paul in Rome, eg Hermes' house might relate to Paul being identified with Mercury in Acts 4:12, and Paul's rented house in Acts 28:30, (or it might relate to Nero's golden house?) Peter's alleged crucifixion in Rome would really be Paul's. We have no evdience outside of unreliable early church fathers.
The Roman christian "Simon Peter/Cephas" is really from either Ju-piter/Joves-pater or Liber-pater or Petra (Greek/Egyptian god) or god Semo/Semoni (Sancus) or Simon Magus or Nero Caesar or Patrician.
The popes list really matches the Roman emperors list, with the first 16 popes (Peter to Callistus & antipope Hippolytus) positively matching the emperors from Nero to Caracalla & Heliogabalus, all matching all in order except for a few exclusions like Otho, Galba, Vitellius. Since 2nd pope Linus "flax hair" surely matches emperor Vespasian (Flavian "yellow hair"), 1st pope "Peter/Cephas" matches emperor Nero Caesar. Peter has "a bushy beard and good head of hair" (compare Papa Smurf), Nero was the only emperor to have a beard until Hadrian, and Caesar means "thick head of hair, hairy" (and Cephas and Caesar are similar sounding/looking names). Peter hung on upsidedown cross matches Nero as antichrist 666/616. Both are associated with Caesarea Philippi (aka Neronias). Dates also match. Peter being said to be martyred by/under Nero gives us the equation/association of Nero and Peter with each other, and when we read of other transforming of other pagan gods, holidays and sites into "christian" saints, holidays and sites we see it is a subtle/secret "act of contempt for christianity", and as mixture like the harlot Babylon in Revelation, and "wolves in sheeps clothing".
The 1st church of Ephesus in Revelation has details similarities with Jerusalem not with Rome.
First 4 popes and emperors matches (excluding many details matches) :
1 Peter (martyred by Nero, beard) - Nero (martyred Peter, beard)
2 Linus (flax hair) - Vespasian (yellow hair, "in opposition to Marcillinus")
3 Cletus - Titus
4 Clement - Domitian (cousin Clemens)
etc.
God/Jesus says to "come out of her (Babylon/Rome)" in Revelation.
 
Upvote 0

Ray Glenn

Active Member
Jun 10, 2021
329
134
69
Birmingham
✟31,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The first thing to learn about Israel 1 BC. Previously a fellow by the name of Alexander the Great conquered Israel without firing a shot. In fact the agreement to take Israel was concluded before Alexander arrives with his army. The Priests came out of the City of Jerusalem to meet the Boy conqueror. Alexander knelt to kiss the ring of the Head Priest. Many wars were concluded in that manner. Israel paid the Greek Empire annually. The agreement being that all official documents and business trade would be conducted in Greek. So distinct was the practice, Rome wanted Latin to be used, but accepted Greek because it was more commonplace. There is nothing mythical about Greek, Latin and Aramaic being used. The scribes that wrote letters for the Apostles most likely wrote most if not everything in Greek.
 
Upvote 0

ha-adamah

Active Member
Feb 23, 2022
39
12
60
Spokane, Washington
✟15,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Yet, "There is no early textual evidence for Peter in Rome"...

This is a non-statement.
No evidence = "I don't know" in the research sense

If you study the early history of the Christian church, you'll see that Rome went a little wild burning Christian documents. It's far more reasonable to say that there's no evidence because the evidence was destroyed.
 
Upvote 0

philadelphos

Sydney
Jun 20, 2019
431
154
Sydney
✟45,144.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
The Institutes of the Christian Religion — John Calvin

OF THE PRIMACY OF THE ROMISH SEE.

14. But I do not see that any credit is due to their allegation of Peter's occupation of the Roman See. Certainly it is, that the statement of Eusebius, that he presided over it for twenty-five years, is easily refuted. For it appears from the first and second chapters of Galatians, that he was at Jerusalem about twenty years after the death of Christ, and afterwards came to Antioch. [563] How long he remained here is uncertain; Gregory counts seven, and Eusebius twenty-five years. But from our Saviour's death to the end of Nero's reign (under which they state that he was put to death), will be found only thirty-seven years. [564] For our Lord suffered in the eighteenth year of the reign of Tiberius. If you cut off the twenty years, during which, as Paul testifies, Peter dwelt at Jerusalem, there will remain at most seventeen years; and these must be divided between his two episcopates. If he dwelt long at Antioch, his See at Rome must have been of short duration. This we may demonstrate still more clearly. Paul wrote to the Romans while he was on his journey to Jerusalem, where he was apprehended and conveyed to Rome (Rom.15:15, 16). It is therefore probable that this letter was written four years before his arrival at Rome. [565] Still there is no mention of Peter, as there certainly would have been if he had been ruling that church. Nay, in the end of the Epistle, where he enumerates a long list of individuals whom he orders to be saluted, and in which it may be supposed he includes all who were known to him, he says nothing at all of Peter. To men of sound judgment, there is no need here of a long and subtle demonstration; the nature of the case itself, and the whole subject of the Epistle, proclaim that he ought not to have passed over Peter if he had been at Rome.

15. Paul is afterwards conveyed as a prisoner to Rome. Luke relates that he was received by the brethren, but says nothing of Peter. From Rome he writes to many churches. He even sends salutations from certain individuals, but does not by a single word intimate that Peter was then there. Who, pray, will believe that he would have said nothing of him if he had been present? Nay, in the Epistle to the Philippians, after saying that he had no one who cared for the work of the Lord so faithfully as Timothy, he complains, that "all seek their own" (Phil.2:21) [566] . And to Timothy he makes the more grievous complaint, that no man was present at his first defence, that all men forsook him (2 Tim.4:16). Where then was Peter? [567] If they say that he was at Rome, how disgraceful the charge which Paul brings against him of being a deserter of the Gospel! For he is speaking of believers, since he adds, "The Lord lay it not to their charge." At what time, therefore, and how long, did Peter hold that See? The uniform opinion of authors is, that he governed that church until his death. But these authors are not agreed as to who was his successor. Some say Linus, others Clement. And they relate many absurd fables concerning a discussion between him and Simon Magus. Nor does Augustine, when treating of superstition, disguise the fact, that owing to an opinion rashly entertained, it had become customary at Rome to fast on the day on which Peter carried away the palm from Simon Magus (August. ad Januar. Ep.2). In short, the affairs of that period are so involved from the variety of opinions, that credit is not to be given rashly to anything we read concerning it. And yet, from this agreement of authors, I do not dispute that he died there, but that he was bishop, particularly for a long period, I cannot believe. [568] I do not, however, attach much importance to the point, since Paul testifies, that the apostleship of Peter pertained especially to the Jews, but his own specially to us. Therefore, in order that that compact which they made between themselves, nay, that the arrangement of the Holy Spirit may be firmly established among us, we ought to pay more regard to the apostleship of Paul than to that of Peter, since the Holy Spirit, in allotting them different provinces, destined Peter for the Jews and Paul for us. Let the Romanists, therefore, seek their primacy somewhere else than in the word of God, which gives not the least foundation for it.

Henry Beveridge footnote:

[568] 115 D115 Calvin in this one sentence states his conclusions on three distinct questions: (a) Did Peter die in Rome? (b) Was Peter bishop of Rome? (c) If Peter was bishop of Rome, did he hold this office for a long period of time? With regard to the first question, Calvin does not dispute the contention that Peter died in Rome. Although there is no specific statement to this effect in Scripture, yet Peter's presence and martyrdom is attested by so many early writers, including Clement of Rome, Ignatus, Papias, and Irenaeus, that there appears to be no sound reason to reject a tradition about which so many authors agree. However, in relation to the second and third questions, Calvin does not feel that he can answer affirmatively. His reasons are found in the argument which he has developed in this section and the previous one. If Calvin's development in these sections, and the appended annotations are substantially correct, then it would appear that at least three conclusions follow: (1) There is no evidence that Peter founded the church at Rome. (2) There is no evidence that Peter was in Rome for any considerable length of time. He may have been there, at the most, for six years (if he came in A.D. 62 and died in A.D. 68). He may have been there for five years (if he arrived in A.D. 66 and was executed in A.D. 68). (3) There is no evidence that Peter was the (first) bishop of Rome; or that such an office, distinct from that of elder, even existed at this early date. Such an office, clearly extra-Biblical, appeared only later in the history of the Church.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Personally I did look into all the Catholic claims about Peter and the popes since I was almost convinced some years ago and it seemed cool to think that the Pope was the successor of Peter, but I happened to find out in objective historical research that it was based on untruths, starting with finding that the popes list matches the emperors list as especially seen with pope Pius matching emperor Antoninus Pius (exact same name, same dates, and popes/emperors before and after also match). I supposed this will be complained about and removed bny forum staff, but I do not mean any offense to Catholics, I merely think it is fair to be able to post what I think the truth is for others to be able to see boths sides and decide for themselves.
I don't see any Biblical or reliable archaeological/historical/records evidence for Cephas/Peter having been in Rome. The reference to "Babylon" in the epistile of 1 Peter 5:13 is clearly only him passing on greeting(s) from "Babylon", rather than meaning he was also there himself. (The actual greeting he passed on might be mentioned in either Hebrews 13:24, Philippians 4:22, Titus 3:15, 2 Timothy 4:21, and/or 2 John 13, 3 John 14.)
Some of the traditional evidence for Peter being in Rome might really relate to Paul in Rome, eg Hermes' house might relate to Paul being identified with Mercury in Acts 4:12, and Paul's rented house in Acts 28:30, (or it might relate to Nero's golden house?) Peter's alleged crucifixion in Rome would really be Paul's. We have no evdience outside of unreliable early church fathers.
The Roman christian "Simon Peter/Cephas" is really from either Ju-piter/Joves-pater or Liber-pater or Petra (Greek/Egyptian god) or god Semo/Semoni (Sancus) or Simon Magus or Nero Caesar or Patrician.
The popes list really matches the Roman emperors list, with the first 16 popes (Peter to Callistus & antipope Hippolytus) positively matching the emperors from Nero to Caracalla & Heliogabalus, all matching all in order except for a few exclusions like Otho, Galba, Vitellius. Since 2nd pope Linus "flax hair" surely matches emperor Vespasian (Flavian "yellow hair"), 1st pope "Peter/Cephas" matches emperor Nero Caesar. Peter has "a bushy beard and good head of hair" (compare Papa Smurf), Nero was the only emperor to have a beard until Hadrian, and Caesar means "thick head of hair, hairy" (and Cephas and Caesar are similar sounding/looking names). Peter hung on upsidedown cross matches Nero as antichrist 666/616. Both are associated with Caesarea Philippi (aka Neronias). Dates also match. Peter being said to be martyred by/under Nero gives us the equation/association of Nero and Peter with each other, and when we read of other transforming of other pagan gods, holidays and sites into "christian" saints, holidays and sites we see it is a subtle/secret "act of contempt for christianity", and as mixture like the harlot Babylon in Revelation, and "wolves in sheeps clothing".
The 1st church of Ephesus in Revelation has details similarities with Jerusalem not with Rome.
First 4 popes and emperors matches (excluding many details matches) :
1 Peter (martyred by Nero, beard) - Nero (martyred Peter, beard)
2 Linus (flax hair) - Vespasian (yellow hair, "in opposition to Marcillinus")
3 Cletus - Titus
4 Clement - Domitian (cousin Clemens)
etc.
God/Jesus says to "come out of her (Babylon/Rome)" in Revelation.
Nothing you wrote means anything related to objective historical research --- it is all nonsene.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The first thing to learn about Israel 1 BC. Previously a fellow by the name of Alexander the Great conquered Israel without firing a shot. In fact the agreement to take Israel was concluded before Alexander arrives with his army. The Priests came out of the City of Jerusalem to meet the Boy conqueror. Alexander knelt to kiss the ring of the Head Priest. Many wars were concluded in that manner. Israel paid the Greek Empire annually. The agreement being that all official documents and business trade would be conducted in Greek. So distinct was the practice, Rome wanted Latin to be used, but accepted Greek because it was more commonplace. There is nothing mythical about Greek, Latin and Aramaic being used. The scribes that wrote letters for the Apostles most likely wrote most if not everything in Greek.
I do not see any quotes from primary sources with links to check context. Thus none of that is useful and is just nonsense.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is a non-statement.
No evidence = "I don't know" in the research sense

If you study the early history of the Christian church, you'll see that Rome went a little wild burning Christian documents. It's far more reasonable to say that there's no evidence because the evidence was destroyed.
Where is your proof from primary sources with links to check context. Thus none of that is useful.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The Institutes of the Christian Religion — John Calvin

OF THE PRIMACY OF THE ROMISH SEE.

14. But I do not see that any credit is due to their allegation of Peter's occupation of the Roman See. Certainly it is, that the statement of Eusebius, that he presided over it for twenty-five years, is easily refuted. For it appears from the first and second chapters of Galatians, that he was at Jerusalem about twenty years after the death of Christ, and afterwards came to Antioch. [563] How long he remained here is uncertain; Gregory counts seven, and Eusebius twenty-five years. But from our Saviour's death to the end of Nero's reign (under which they state that he was put to death), will be found only thirty-seven years. [564] For our Lord suffered in the eighteenth year of the reign of Tiberius. If you cut off the twenty years, during which, as Paul testifies, Peter dwelt at Jerusalem, there will remain at most seventeen years; and these must be divided between his two episcopates. If he dwelt long at Antioch, his See at Rome must have been of short duration. This we may demonstrate still more clearly. Paul wrote to the Romans while he was on his journey to Jerusalem, where he was apprehended and conveyed to Rome (Rom.15:15, 16). It is therefore probable that this letter was written four years before his arrival at Rome. [565] Still there is no mention of Peter, as there certainly would have been if he had been ruling that church. Nay, in the end of the Epistle, where he enumerates a long list of individuals whom he orders to be saluted, and in which it may be supposed he includes all who were known to him, he says nothing at all of Peter. To men of sound judgment, there is no need here of a long and subtle demonstration; the nature of the case itself, and the whole subject of the Epistle, proclaim that he ought not to have passed over Peter if he had been at Rome.

15. Paul is afterwards conveyed as a prisoner to Rome. Luke relates that he was received by the brethren, but says nothing of Peter. From Rome he writes to many churches. He even sends salutations from certain individuals, but does not by a single word intimate that Peter was then there. Who, pray, will believe that he would have said nothing of him if he had been present? Nay, in the Epistle to the Philippians, after saying that he had no one who cared for the work of the Lord so faithfully as Timothy, he complains, that "all seek their own" (Phil.2:21) [566] . And to Timothy he makes the more grievous complaint, that no man was present at his first defence, that all men forsook him (2 Tim.4:16). Where then was Peter? [567] If they say that he was at Rome, how disgraceful the charge which Paul brings against him of being a deserter of the Gospel! For he is speaking of believers, since he adds, "The Lord lay it not to their charge." At what time, therefore, and how long, did Peter hold that See? The uniform opinion of authors is, that he governed that church until his death. But these authors are not agreed as to who was his successor. Some say Linus, others Clement. And they relate many absurd fables concerning a discussion between him and Simon Magus. Nor does Augustine, when treating of superstition, disguise the fact, that owing to an opinion rashly entertained, it had become customary at Rome to fast on the day on which Peter carried away the palm from Simon Magus (August. ad Januar. Ep.2). In short, the affairs of that period are so involved from the variety of opinions, that credit is not to be given rashly to anything we read concerning it. And yet, from this agreement of authors, I do not dispute that he died there, but that he was bishop, particularly for a long period, I cannot believe. [568] I do not, however, attach much importance to the point, since Paul testifies, that the apostleship of Peter pertained especially to the Jews, but his own specially to us. Therefore, in order that that compact which they made between themselves, nay, that the arrangement of the Holy Spirit may be firmly established among us, we ought to pay more regard to the apostleship of Paul than to that of Peter, since the Holy Spirit, in allotting them different provinces, destined Peter for the Jews and Paul for us. Let the Romanists, therefore, seek their primacy somewhere else than in the word of God, which gives not the least foundation for it.

Henry Beveridge footnote:

[568] 115 D115 Calvin in this one sentence states his conclusions on three distinct questions: (a) Did Peter die in Rome? (b) Was Peter bishop of Rome? (c) If Peter was bishop of Rome, did he hold this office for a long period of time? With regard to the first question, Calvin does not dispute the contention that Peter died in Rome. Although there is no specific statement to this effect in Scripture, yet Peter's presence and martyrdom is attested by so many early writers, including Clement of Rome, Ignatus, Papias, and Irenaeus, that there appears to be no sound reason to reject a tradition about which so many authors agree. However, in relation to the second and third questions, Calvin does not feel that he can answer affirmatively. His reasons are found in the argument which he has developed in this section and the previous one. If Calvin's development in these sections, and the appended annotations are substantially correct, then it would appear that at least three conclusions follow: (1) There is no evidence that Peter founded the church at Rome. (2) There is no evidence that Peter was in Rome for any considerable length of time. He may have been there, at the most, for six years (if he came in A.D. 62 and died in A.D. 68). He may have been there for five years (if he arrived in A.D. 66 and was executed in A.D. 68). (3) There is no evidence that Peter was the (first) bishop of Rome; or that such an office, distinct from that of elder, even existed at this early date. Such an office, clearly extra-Biblical, appeared only later in the history of the Church.

[STAFF EDITED]
That all is only secondary or later, no primary sources, thus useless.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

philadelphos

Sydney
Jun 20, 2019
431
154
Sydney
✟45,144.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
For a historical research project, secondary sources are generally scholarly books and articles. A secondary source interprets and analyzes primary sources. (Harvard) i.e. historiography.

The tap water in Venice is said to be drinkable, pure, cool, and tasty. I have never been but perhaps I'll taste it for myself someday.

What's remarkable about Calvin's quote above is that he steps away from tradition after evaluating evidence for himself. While he's famous for venerating Augustine (who follows in the tradition of venerating Peter) yet here he makes a significant judgment, interpretation, and conclusion: That there is no evidence for Peter in Rome. An absence of evidence, limited to none, no mention of him whatsoever. A hole in the story.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
For a historical research project, secondary sources are generally scholarly books and articles. A secondary source interprets and analyzes primary sources. (Harvard) i.e. historiography.

The tap water in Venice is said to be drinkable, pure, cool, and tasty. I have never been but perhaps I'll taste it for myself someday.

What's remarkable about Calvin's quote above is that he steps away from tradition after evaluating evidence for himself. While he's famous for venerating Augustine (who follows in the tradition of venerating Peter) yet here he makes a significant judgment, interpretation, and conclusion: That there is no evidence for Peter in Rome. An absence of evidence, limited to none, no mention of him whatsoever. A hole in the story.
What Calvin wrote is more propragandia then history. Historians know to use primary sources over secondary or later sources.
LibGuides: History: Differences Between Primary and Secondary Sources.

Historian's Fallaciebooks
David H. Fischer · 1970

Bad Arguments: 100 of the Most Important Fallacies
Robert Arp, ‎Steven Barbone, ‎Michael Bruce · 2018

Histories and Fallacies: Problems Faced in the Writing
Carl R. Trueman · 2010

Historical Fallacies Unveiled
M. Abdul Kader

They Got It Wrong: History: All the Facts that Turned Out Emma Marriott · 2013

Historical Evidence and Argument
David Henige · 2006

Logically Fallacious: The Ultimate Collection of Over 300 Bo Bennett · 2012

The Craft of History and the Study of the New Testament Beth M. Sheppard · 2012

Jesus’ Resurrection: What Historical Evidence?
by John Warwick Montgomery
 
Upvote 0

philadelphos

Sydney
Jun 20, 2019
431
154
Sydney
✟45,144.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
What Calvin wrote is more propragandia then history. Historians know to use primary sources over secondary or later sources.
LibGuides: History: Differences Between Primary and Secondary Sources.

Historian's Fallaciebooks
David H. Fischer · 1970

Bad Arguments: 100 of the Most Important Fallacies
Robert Arp, ‎Steven Barbone, ‎Michael Bruce · 2018

Histories and Fallacies: Problems Faced in the Writing
Carl R. Trueman · 2010

Historical Fallacies Unveiled
M. Abdul Kader

They Got It Wrong: History: All the Facts that Turned Out Emma Marriott · 2013

Historical Evidence and Argument
David Henige · 2006

Logically Fallacious: The Ultimate Collection of Over 300 Bo Bennett · 2012

The Craft of History and the Study of the New Testament Beth M. Sheppard · 2012

Jesus’ Resurrection: What Historical Evidence?
by John Warwick Montgomery

Thanks for the references. I appreciated this: “Historians are inexact scientists… A moment's reflection should suffice to establish the simple proposition that every historian, willy-nilly, must begin his research with a question,… (And) Without questions of some sort, a historian is condemned to wander aimlessly through dark corridors of learning.” (Fischer, Historians' Fallacies)

To confirm, are you saying that primary sources (always) trump secondary sources? And that commentary or remarks are always unreliable or false? i.e. primary source primacy or supremacy: primary source > secondary source > commentary/remarks i.e. “propaganda”.

If so, where is then the consideration for the matter of truth irrespective of source hierarchy?

Some issues:
  1. argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad antiquateum, that the majority argument (tradition) does not make something true or right, and that older (primacy) is not necessarily truer or better. “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” (Mk 7:13) “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.” (1 Tim 1:4) “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Col 2:8)

  2. Absence, lack, and omission (destruction) of primary source material is an issue. But clues and the lack there of we have. Reading between the lines. If the traditional account were true the proof would be irrefutable, undeniably plain. However, it is obfuscated by a mosaic of deception. Contradicting accounts in Scripture. Key characters missing in the story.

  3. A primary source to consider: The ossuary of Shimeon Bar Yonah “Simon, Son of Jonah” published in Liber Annuus III, 149-184 (1953), by Franciscan Father Bellarmino Bagatti
    Studium Biblicum franciscanum, Bagatti Bellarmino Camillo Liber Annuus 1-10
  4. About aliases, Simon Bar Jona and subsequent renaming to Cephas/Kēphas/Petros/Πέτρος/Peter:
    • “Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.” (John 1:42)
    • “And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Mt 16:17) καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Μακάριος εἶ Σίμων Βαρ Ἰωνᾶ ὅτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα οὐκ ἀπεκάλυψέν σοι ἀλλ᾽ ὁ πατήρ μου ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.
    • Thrice “Simon, son of Jonas” is addressed by the Lord in John 21:15-17
“Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Mt 7:13-14)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mosheli

Active Member
Jul 1, 2020
50
17
50
Wellington
✟40,682.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Nothing you wrote means anything related to objective historical research --- it is all nonsene.

Sorry to hear that, but it doesn't deal with any details evidences and so is not really disproof/proof of anything just mere words claims. Contrary to your claim I did objective historical research after almost being convinced by a pro Pope poster that the pope was real successor of Peter, and I did the same studying Peter's Babylon. There are no doubts that the popes list is a fake really matching the Roman emperors list, and people can trash it all they like claiming it is untrue but the details matches are stark. Peter's Babylon may be Rome but the letter doesn't say he was there himself only that he was passing on a message received from there. I have plenty of evidences but I can't post them because they persecute me more whenever I expose them (they rule the world and control everything just like Revelation says). Revelation says "come out of her" but Christians are not listening yet. In medieval times they recognised the Pope over all the European monarchs, and in modern times pope is also considered to rank above all heads of state, and papal nuncio recognised above other envoys/consuls/ministers.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What's remarkable about Calvin's quote above is that he steps away from tradition after evaluating evidence for himself.
While he's famous for venerating Augustine (who follows in the tradition of venerating Peter) yet here he makes a significant judgment, interpretation, and conclusion: That there is no evidence for Peter in Rome. An absence of evidence, limited to none, no mention of him whatsoever. A hole in the story.
It's possible that Peter was never in Rome. Most students of the question feel that he was there, but let's allow for the possibility that he was not.

His being present would not make what is claimed for him and 200 successors be true! That is something that should not be overlooked when this is the debate topic.

If Peter were in Rome, Christ still didn't make him a Pope by the words spoken in Matthew 16:18 and following. Peter was not recognized as a Pope kind of figure in his own lifetime. And, in fact, the role of such a leader was unknown during the first centuries of the Christian era.
 
Upvote 0

Ray Glenn

Active Member
Jun 10, 2021
329
134
69
Birmingham
✟31,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"There is no textual evidence that Peter wrote in Greek. It is entirely possible he wrote in Aramaic and it was translated into Greek shortly afterwards."

Let's start where Greek came from. Alexander the Great took Israel without a fight. Most countries at the time choose the easy route of not fighting and suffering huge losses. To join the club as part of Alexander's Empire, all official and private business had to done in Greek.

Peter not only preached and delivered the message to Jews, but to Gentiles as well. Gentiles would ascribe to the use of Greek as well. Aramaic .....not so much. Enter a little fella by the name of either John or Mark. John being a common Hebrew name and Mark a common Roman name. It is presumed that John Mark became the assistant and translator for Peter. That would seem to be well reasoned because the Greek used in Peter's letters are the work of a well educated man. It also stands to reason that Peter was educated as well. Not a simple illiterate fisherman.

Just because written evidence doesn't exist, does not mean what some scholars assume.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
To join the club as part of Alexander's Empire, all official and private business had to done in Greek.
Untrue. Most of the administration in the Seleucid Empire was done in Imperial Aramaic inherited from its use in the Achaemenid Empire, which is why its alphabet continued in use amongst the non-Greek speaking Jews.

Alexander and the Diadochoi tried to integrate the old Persian system into their own. Alexander married Stateira the daughter of Darius III for instance, and the wife of Seleucus was Apama, another highborn Persian/Sogdian. In Egypt, the Ptolemies used Greek, Demotic and Hieroglyphics, such as on the Rosetta stone (thus helping us decipher the latter two).

Greek expanded in the Hellenistic period due to prestige as the language of the ruling class and high culture, not from an enforced language policy or exclusive official use. They even put Aramaic titles and slogans on their coinage, like Shahanshah and Frataraka. Right into Roman times, languages other than Greek were still used in an official capacity. We even have Pilate writing the titulus of Jesus' crucifixion in Greek, Latin and Hebrew (Aramaic).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ray Glenn

Active Member
Jun 10, 2021
329
134
69
Birmingham
✟31,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'll accept a more learned position. And offer this in rebellion (Joking of course)

This is from Leeds University.

"The Gospels were written in Greek because Greek was the lingua franca of the first century Roman Empire, and Christianity was from the outset an evangelistic religion, which wanted to spread its message far and wide."
 
Upvote 0