No covenanters allowed: A Question for Dispensationalists

[skullkrusher]

If "traditional" dispensationalism (pre-trib, pre-mil) is correct:

1) None, or at best very llittle, of the Revelation pertains to the 'Church Age', of which you are a part;

therefore,

2) the vast majority of the book can have no practical application to you;

therefore,

3) having no practical application to believers in this 'dispensation', it cannot result in greater maturity or faith for you.

Therefore, pouring over the minutia of the Revelation, for a dispensationalist, is at best a phenomenal example of poor stewardship of time and a mis-direction of study to that which has no relevance to you.

So, why are you wasting so much precious time studying that which cannot be applied in a daily pursuit of holiness?

Or, if you prefer (since it seems no one wants to address the first question), why do you believe extensive study of eschatology to be relevant to your spiritual life?

 

[Terral]

Hi skull:

If "traditional" dispensationalism (pre-trib, pre-mil) is correct . . .

Traditional dispyism is incorrect like every other branch of modern-day Denominationalism falling under the Protestantism umbrella. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory is DEAD WRONG and OFF by the same 1000 Years contained inside the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (my thread). Premillennialism (Wiki) says that Jesus Christ will return and literally reign on this earth for a mere 1000 years, which is another MYTH with no basis in Biblical reality whatsoever. Heaven is Christ’s Throne and the earth is His footstool (my thread)! Christ returns (Matt. 24:30-31 and 'The Body' with Him in glory) at the END of the Age (Matt. 24:3+) to judge the living (Matt. 25:31-34/Zech 14) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15) after throwing the devil (Rev. 20:10) and his evil boy child and false prophet (Rev. 19:20) into the lake of fire. The man to sit on the earthly throne is none other than “David himself” (Eze. 34:23-25) in the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven.” Matt. 6:10. Christ takes “His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty IN THE HEAVENS, a Minister in the Sanctuary and in the True Tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, NOT MAN.” Heb. 8:1-2. The tabernacle restored on this earth is none other than the “Tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18) the earthly ‘copy’ of things in heaven.

1) None, or at best very little, of the Revelation pertains to the 'Church Age', of which you are a part;

therefore . . .

Every bit of Revelation pertains to our mystery church (Eph. 5:32), called “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24), because ‘we’ (Church #2) are IN the Lamb right from the start in Revelation 1:10. The ‘trumpet’ sounding off ‘behind’ John (Rev. 1:10) is our mystery (1Cor. 15:52) trumpet (1Thes. 4:16) along with the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1Thes. 4:16) chaining the devil (Rev. 20:2) and all the members of his evil body (Eph. 6:12) for the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (Lord’s Day) starting right here in Revelation 1. The 1000 Year Day of the Lord (pic) spans the first three chapters (Rev. 1-3), until John is called up to ‘heaven’ in Revelation 4:1. Then we see the same END of the Age events retold over and over and over again from many different perspectives in Revelation 4-20, which correspond to the prophecies of Christ’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, Zechariah’s prophecies in Zech. 14, Daniel’s prophecies in Daniel 9-12, Peter’s in 2Peter 3:8-12, so on and so forth. Open this diagram (here) to realize that all the OT Prophets ‘can’ see very clearly into the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord (in blue), but NONE OF THEM see anything inside the “2000 Year Mystery Time” that we live in today shaded in red. There is no such thing as any “Church Age” ever mentioned once in your Bible and this is just another MYTH perpetuated by professing Dispy’s that makes no Biblical sense whatsoever. This creation has been enduring the ‘evil age’ (Gal. 1:4) that began with ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12) falling back in Genesis 1:2 and the New Age begins with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21:1+ when the principals of ‘this darkness’ are thrown into the lake of fire with Hades and Death (Rev. 20:14).

2) the vast majority of the book can have no practical application to you;

therefore . . .

We definitely disagree. God’s Living Word is broken down (pierced) into three witnesses of Spirit (OT = 39 books = 3 x 13), Blood (Pauline Epistles = 13 grace books) and Water (Kingdom Epistles = 13 kingdom books) where the Book of Acts is the transitional veil (First Veil) standing between the “Holy Place” (Pauline Epistles) and the “Court” (Kingdom Epistles) like this:

From the left: The three witnesses (spirit/blood/water = 1Jn 5:7-8) are enfolded inside the 39 books of the OT in the same way as the Father + Son + Holy Spirit = The Word (pic) ‘and’ Adam + her seed + Eve = Adam (pic) in Genesis 2:7 ‘and’ the heavens + heaven + earth = ‘Eth Erets (pic = The Earth) of Genesis 1:6-8. John the Baptist (Elijah) is the invisible “Second Veil” that men fail to recognize (Matt. 17:12 = even today) as the “prophet” (still coming = Acts 3:22-23) of Malachi 4:5-6 representing the “Spirit witness” leading The Way for Jesus Christ (Lord God of the OT) to then come in water ‘and’ in blood (1Jn 5:6 = pic). The Pauline Epistles (in red) and the Kingdom Epistles (in blue) represent the ‘two’ ministries of Jesus Christ gathering the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (Church #1) through Peter and the Twelve using the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1) ‘and’ the Mystery Body of Christ (Church #2) by Paul, Barnabas and Titus through the “Word of the Cross” (Gospel #2) gospel message for today.

Modern-day Denominationalism (‘mystery of iniquity/lawlessness’) breaks down the First Veil (pic = Scripture mirrors Temple) to mix the ‘water and blood’ ministries of Jesus Christ together into an abomination that God sent to NOBODY. Again, the OT (spirit witness) and the Kingdom Epistles (water witness) are of GREAT VALUE to the members of the “Body of Christ” (Church #2) in the world today, but ONLY when you grow to realize how the ‘three witnesses’ are testifying about one another (like all of these here and here) like your spirit (like OT for Israel), soul (like Pauline Epistles for the Mystery Body) and physical body (pic = like Kingdom Epistles for the Kingdom Bride). The “man of wisdom” (Rev. 13:18) can use the entire ‘triune’ Word of God as a Living Oracle to predict events of this 2000 Year Mystery Time, by realizing that we are living through a ‘soul-like’ mystery period that has literal fulfillment contained inside the ‘spirit witness’ (OT) and ‘water witness’ (Kingdom Epistles) counterparts. While the events of the 1000 Year Day of the Lord see these things fulfilled ‘literally’ and indeed ‘physically,’ the ‘soul-like’ corresponding events of today (2000 Year Mystery Time) are revealed and seen as through ‘a mirror dimly’ (1Cor. 13:12); or as a mere shadow of things to come.

For example: Christ comes ‘literally’ at the END of the Age (Matt. 24:30-31), but Christ is already here “IN” (Fig 2) the members of Christ’s Body anticipating His ascension (Acts 1:9-11) in our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) where ‘we’ (Body of Christ) leave this earth on the clouds. The antichrist also comes as a ‘man’ at the END of the Age (Matt. 24:15-16 = prince to come), but he is already here spiritually IN the ‘servants of righteousness’ (Fig 3) severing their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14-15); according to the “Mystery of Iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7-12), as the antithesis doctrine (left side of diagram) to the “Mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3). Christ has entered the “Holy Place” of everyone believing ‘our gospel’ (#2), while the antichrist has entered the “Holy Place” of everyone deluded and deceived by the “god of this world” (2Cor. 4:3-4) forced into ‘believing what is false’ by his “deluding influence.” 2Thes. 2:11. Therefore, my sayings about ‘the truth’ of ‘these things’ (2Peter 3:14-16) appear like ‘heresy’ to everyone blinded by modern-day Denominationalism whether they be Anglicans, Baptists, Catholics, Dispensationalists, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Greek Orthodox, or anyone among over 2000 ‘professing’ Christian denominations in the USA alone.

[Continued] :0)

 

[Terral]

3) having no practical application to believers in this 'dispensation', it cannot result in greater maturity or faith for you.

This is yet another MYTH with no basis in Scripture whatsoever. The members of Christ’s Body (Church #2) in the world today have the greatest opportunity to ascend up into the higher ranks of the Pyramid-like Temple/Building of the Lord (pic), but their eyes are dull of seeing and their ears are dull of hearing finding them to be the dark and dreary common stones at the very base of the heavenly “Body of Christ” about to be gathered under Christ Himself as the “Head.” Eph. 1:11, 5:23, Col. 1:18. If you want a realistic picture of how the mystery Body of Christ has developed over the past 2000 years, then imagine a massive pyramid laying on its side with the Capstone on the left and the wide base on the right (opposite of this = imagine “h” is on your left at 33 AD). Christ began the Body of Christ as the “head” and the Apostle Paul, Barnabas, Titus, Timothy, the apostles and prophets (Eph. 4:11) began filling in the narrow upper portions as the ‘foundation’ of the massive living structure. However, today we have the many common stones at the Pyramid base incarnate in the world that have the elements of “fulfillment of Prophecy” (water witness) and the “revelation of The Mystery” (blood witness) all mixed together, which serves to reward them with dirty garments and very few precious stones, gold and whatnot. In short: Only the ‘mature’ (1Cor. 2:6-8) can tell the difference between Satan’s ‘servants of righteousness’ and the immature members of Christ’s Body only out of fellowship with God and mixing the ‘two’ ministries of Jesus Christ together without one clue about how to ‘rightly divide’ the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15).

Therefore, pouring over the minutia of the Revelation, for a dispensationalist, is at best a phenomenal example of poor stewardship of time and a mis-direction of study to that which has no relevance to you.

The only reason I spend time writing on your Topic is because many of your conclusions have merit, even if based upon MYTHS and misconceptions of Biblical reality. While the Pauline Epistles represent God’s Personal Mail written “TO” the members of Christ’s Body (1Cor. 14:37-38) every syllable of God’s Living Word has been written “FOR” the members of Christ’s Body to study and understand (2Tim. 3:16-17 = "ALL Scripture") in Light of the “Revelation of THE MYSTERY,” which is the very theme of the Pauline Epistles themselves. In other words, the new ‘inner man’ (Rom. 7:22, 2Cor. 4:16, Eph. 3:16 = Fig 2) is nourished and built up to maturity by reading and digesting Grace Doctrine dispensed ONLY from the 13 Pauline Epistles, but eventually the ‘soul’ (mystery) witness of Scripture is linked to the ‘spirit witness’ and ‘water witness’ like your own soul is connected to your spirit and physical body as two vehicles of expression. Would you allow a plumber or a carpenter or a lawyer to operate on your broken body in the operating room? No? :0) Then why on earth would you allow armchair theologians to make decisions concerning “sound doctrine” matters of spirit that directly affect your very soul??!! The responsibility of determining who ‘is approved’ (1Cor. 11:19) by ‘rightly dividing’ the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15) falls upon every member of Christ’s Body, even though you might have ‘countless tutors’ obtained and discarded along the way. We agree that placing the members of Christ’s Body anywhere outside of the “Lamb” of Revelation is an example of poor Bible interpretation, a sign of poor stewardship, and a misdirection of valuable theological resources that replaces ‘sound doctrine’ with nothing more than MYTHS (2Tim. 4:3-4 again) for fleshy carnal Christians (1Cor. 3:1-3) wanting desperately to have their ears tickled more than anything else.

So, why are you wasting so much precious time studying that which cannot be applied in a daily pursuit of holiness?

There are more reasons for this complete waste of Prophetic Interpretations than can be described in this reply to your OP query. Many of these CF.com members want to be ‘teachers of the Law, even though they DO NOT understand either what they are saying OR the matters about which they make confident/bold assertions’ (1Tim. 1:6-7). Practically every ‘professing’ Bible Prophecy Expert on earth has mixed the ‘blood and water’ ministries of Jesus Christ together, so that deluded minds cannot tell the difference between the ‘start’ (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:15-17) and the ‘end’ (Matt. 24) of the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord. Satan’s “mystery of iniquity” church is massive and contains those blinded by Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy and Protestantism (‘three leavened loaves’ = soul witness assemblies of the = Matt 13:33 = of the woman Jezebel = Rev. 2:20), which are three mystery witnesses from Satan’s false churches thriving through the “Seventy Weeks Decree” (Dan. 9:24+) Period from this diagram (here) shown in purple. The vast majority here fails to realize that Daniel is writing about Seventy Weeks (490 years) leading up to the END of the Age where the “Messiah” (Dan. 9:26) being ‘cut off’ is ‘David’ (Eze. 34:23-25 again) cut off at the 62nd week; or about 56 years from the END of the Age. The Book of Revelation begins the 1000 Year Day of the Lord with the Rapture of our Mystery Church, when Elijah/David/Adam returns to restore ‘all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11) as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:22-23.

Or, if you prefer (since it seems no one wants to address the first question), why do you believe extensive study of eschatology to be relevant to your spiritual life?

If you head over to the CF.com “Eschatology Forum” here then you will see that I killed B1inHim’s thread (here) now on Page 3 and offered comment on the “Rapture” thread (here) in Post #177 directing anyone interested to my new thread in this Dispy Forum (here), because ‘our’ mystery rapture is NOT any END TIMES Topic at all! However, since the “many” (Matt. 7:13-14) are on the ‘road to destruction’ and love to ‘distort’ the ‘wisdom given him’ to “their own destruction” (2Peter 3:14-16), then my comments may as well be shouted at the Wailing Wall, or in an empty forest, or in the wilderness somewhere. :0) While I would love to explain the ‘breadth and length and height and depth’ (Eph. 3:18) of ‘these things’ in great detail for the benefit of the members of Christ’s Body, there is none among the dull/common stones with enough maturity IN Christ Jesus to even ask an intelligent question. If these people are not ready to begin deliberation on the simple 101 Topics on the “Two Gospels” (link) or “Two Churches” (link) or the “Four Baptisms” (link) or the “Differences Between Jesus Christ And Christ Jesus” (link) or the “Differences Between the Only True God ‘And’ My Father Who Is IN HEAVEN” (link), then they are NOT anywhere near ready to dive into the advanced teachings on how to use the ‘triune’ Living Word, and the water witness Kingdom Epistles, as a Living Oracle to predict events leading up to the END of this current 2000 Year Mystery Time. We could be going into the deeper things about how the Big Bang Theory Of Creation Is A MYTH (link), but fleshy babes who cannot add and subtract properly are in NO WAY ready to ask questions about Analytical Geometry and Calculus.

They sit down to eat and drink and stand up to play (like their fathers = Ex. 32:6) with God’s Living Word, because that is what undisciplined children do . . . I am,

In Christ Jesus this very moment,

Terral

 

[skullkrusher]

Have you ever heard of being succinct?, Are you sure you even understood the poitn of my thread? I asked a simple question of Dispensationalists, that is all. If I want to read a theological tome, I'll pick one off my book shelves.

 

[Terral]

Hi Skull:

Have you ever heard of being succinct?

You are very welcome, and yes, my reply above does represent the short answer. :0)

Are you sure you even understood the poitn of my thread?

Yes. Skull asks questions and we provide the answers. A new guy with so many questions should not look the gift horse in the mouth so intently.

I asked a simple question of Dispensationalists, that is all.

We disagree. You made many assumptions above that simply are not true:

1. Traditional Dispyism is not correct.

A. Our mystery rapture takes place some 1000 years ‘before’ the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24:21 (my thread).

B. Premillennialism is yet another Dispy MYTH that I was hoping you would take a few sentences to try and support using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15.

2. There is no such thing as any “Church Age” mentioned in your Bible. Where did you get this idea in your head? :0)

3. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” 2Tim. 3:16-17. The members of “Christ’s Body” (that’s us) are IN the Lamb of Revelation (pic) right from the beginning in Revelation 1:10, so your point #2 saying “the vast majority of the book can have no practical application to you” is also false. Revelation is a ‘water witness’ book (pic) like Hebrews – Jude and Matthew – John, which means these 13 Kingdom Epistles contain “Kingdom Doctrine” for the Kingdom Disciples belonging to Peter’s Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” (John 3:29 = Church #1). However, all three witnesses of God’s Living Word (OT = spirit, Paul’s Epistles = blood, Kingdom Epistles = water) contain components of ‘dispensational truth’ for one specific ‘dispensation’ (Israel, the Mystery Body and the Kingdom Bride respectively) AND elements of ‘eternal truth’ pertaining to God, The Word/Christ and This Creation/Adam (now triune like this) with application and benefit for EVERYONE.

4. Every syllable of God’s Living Word has great application to believers in this ‘dispensation/stewardship’ (of God’s Grace = Eph. 3:2, Col. 1:25), which is the very reason ‘we’ are told to ‘rightly divide’ (accurately handle = cut straight) the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15) in the first place. The simple underlying truth is that “Christ in you” (Col. 1:27 = Fig 2) is a mirror image “New Jerusalem” (Rev. 21:1+ = from God in Fig 2) standing in the ‘new heaven’ between the new heavens and the new earth (777 'man'), which is a microcosm (smaller version) of “Christ Jesus” (under red arrow) representing the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water witness Helper = like Eve) who contains this universe (pic = in blue) IN Himself (in red). Not only is God’s Living Word ‘triune,’ like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit making up “The Word,” but Scripture is LIVING ‘and’ very much ACTIVE (Heb. 4:12 = my old signature verse) able to interact with the Holy Spirit of Promise (combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words) currently residing in our mortal bodies (1Cor. 3:16, 6:19) like the Son resides in our souls and the Father has taken up residence in our combined spirits in anticipation of those three witnesses (our spirit, soul and body) also becoming “one.” :0)

5. Your statements about "pouring over the minutia of the Revelation being at best a phenomenal example of poor stewardship" is true for the fleshy/infant members of Christ’s Body (1Cor. 3:1-3), but very much false for the ‘mature’ (1Cor. 2:6-8) “comprehending with all the saints what is the depth and length and height and depth . . .” (Eph. 3:18).

6. Your insinuation that “you are wasting so much precious time studying that which cannot be applied in the daily pursuit of holiness” is also false, because our eyes are fixed above where Christ is at the right hand of God and NOT upon the things of this earth. Col. 3:1-4. Our citizenship is IN HEAVEN (Phil. 3:20) and we have already been seated IN the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:6.

7. Your insinuation that “no one wants to address the first question” is also false, as we can see by reading Post #2 and #3 on this thread. :0) A thorough examination of all corners of God’s Living Word is important and vital for gathering an accurate understanding of God’s Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6-8) overlooked by the ‘servants of righteousness’ serving their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14-15) and most everybody else.

If I want to read a theological tome, I'll pick one off my book shelves.

Your name appears atop my posts because we have points of disagreement on matters relevant to our spiritual lives, but the substance of my remarks are always drafted for the benefit of the unbiased third-party readers actually seeking ‘the truth’ in the threads of this CF.com Dispy Forum. The fact that Skull can come here and ask a few questions in no way gives you complete control over our answers. Wisdom says to thank everyone taking time to offer a thoughtful reply apart from deliberately krushing any skulls, when you do not approve of our various dispensational points of view. Those among us serving the members of Christ’s Body are solemnly charged by God and His Son to:

“. . . preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with GREAT PATIENCE and INSTRUCTION. For the time will come when THEY WILL NOT endure ‘sound doctrine;’ but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from ‘the truth’ and will turn aside to MYTHS.” 2Tim. 4:2-4.

Please forgive if I choose to show myself approved (1Cor. 11:19) to God (2Tim. 2:15) and to please God rather than the whims of men. Galatians 1:10.

In Christ Jesus right now,

Terral

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

If "traditional" dispensationalism (pre-trib, pre-mil) is correct:

1) None, or at best very llittle, of the Revelation pertains to the 'Church Age', of which you are a part;

therefore,

2) the vast majority of the book can have no practical application to you;

Before we go any further, your "therefore" is not true. All of Scripture has significance for us today, not just parts. We draw principles from what the text says and means, and these are then applied to our lives.


LDG

 

[Benefactor]

Lomorak,

I agree all Scripture is given for the purpose of knowing both about God, about man, and how we should live.

SkullKrusher,

Nothing in God’s word is irrelevant. I think I understand your goal and intent which are good, but you can achieve the same end and not leave out any portion of God's word.

 

[Benefactor]

Terral your post are overkill.

 

[Benefactor]

SkullKrusher, I assume you are a dispensationalist. Do you believe in 7 dispensations or less or more? I am not interested in Terrell’s endless "Whatever" it turns me off. I am interested in dealing with specifics here and there pertaining to dispensationalism. You raised a concern and it in turn received several short answers for consideration.

How do you view the different resurrections in the dispensational model - include the rapture as well?

Thanks Benefactor

 

[TheScottsMen]

Before we go any further, your "therefore" is not true. All of Scripture has significance for us today, not just parts. We draw principles from what the text says and means, and these are then applied to our lives.


LDG

Wow.. Been Awhile. How yeah doing Lamorak?

 

[Biblewriter]

If "traditional" dispensationalism (pre-trib, pre-mil) is correct:

1) None, or at best very llittle, of the Revelation pertains to the 'Church Age', of which you are a part;

therefore,

2) the vast majority of the book can have no practical application to you;

therefore,

3) having no practical application to believers in this 'dispensation', it cannot result in greater maturity or faith for you.

Therefore, pouring over the minutia of the Revelation, for a dispensationalist, is at best a phenomenal example of poor stewardship of time and a mis-direction of study to that which has no relevance to you.

So, why are you wasting so much precious time studying that which cannot be applied in a daily pursuit of holiness?

Or, if you prefer (since it seems no one wants to address the first question), why do you believe extensive study of eschatology to be relevant to your spiritual life?

The fact that a section of scripture is not about us does not indicate that it is not profitable for us. Not even one detail contained in the entire historical portion of the Bible is about us, but it is all for our profit.

But then we must ask, if it is not about us, or anything that will happen in our time, why study it?

First, because God said it.

Second, because God promised a special blessing on those that heed the Revelation.

And third, because knowing what is coming makes us aware that the time is near, for we can see it all beginning to develop.

 

[skullkrusher]

Before we go any further, your "therefore" is not true. All of Scripture has significance for us today, not just parts. We draw principles from what the text says and means, and these are then applied to our lives.


LDG

Fair enough -- in terms of clarification, my statement stands in relation to practicality -- can you honestly say (not trying to be at all provocative here) that the majority of those you know who spend time studying dispensatioinal eschatology do NOT focus the majority of their time trying to decipher time lines, symbols and imgery, etc., that directly pertain to events that, according to most dispensational views, will not occur unitl after the supposed pre-trib rapture? That is the thrust of my question.

Granting that Biblical principle is valid regardless of the immediate audience or subject, my point is that hundreds of thousands of Christians consume millions, if not billions, of hours each year pouring over theological questions that have little immediate practical value in their daily walk with the Lord. Don't you think that time could (should?) be spent striving to have as thorough an understandign of soteriology, pneumatology, theology proper, the doctrines of Scripture, inspiration, et al?

 

[skullkrusher]

Lomorak,

I agree all Scripture is given for the purpose of knowing both about God, about man, and how we should live.

SkullKrusher,

Nothing in God’s word is irrelevant. I think I understand your goal and intent which are good, but you can achieve the same end and not leave out any portion of God's word.

My point is not that I belive it is irrelevant. My point is that, within the dispensational framework, the practical relevance is highly limited; so much so that I think it is can be easily argued that the massive amounts of time Christians dedicate to the study of dispensationalism is poor stewardship; I'm posing an ethical dilemma easily inferred from the dispansational view.

 

[skullkrusher]

SkullKrusher, I assume you are a dispensationalist. Do you believe in 7 dispensations or less or more? I am not interested in Terrell’s endless "Whatever" it turns me off. I am interested in dealing with specifics here and there pertaining to dispensationalism. You raised a concern and it in turn received several short answers for consideration.

How do you view the different resurrections in the dispensational model - include the rapture as well?

Thanks Benefactor

Benefactor -- your assumption is incorrect. I was a dispensationalist for many, many years. Amen to you view of T. Not helpful in the least, nor even interesting, for that matter. My time is short, so I'll have to come back to your quesion re: resurrections. Could you plese clarify it a bit for me? I'll try to log in tonight from home & post a few more responses.

Grace & Peace,
SK

PS -- for those who may have seen T's comment re: the "krushing of skulls" -- my avatar and screen name are my professional logos, and they refer to Genesis 3: 15. I haven't done any deliberate 'krushing fo skulls' on this forum, although I did do a bit on AWE.

 

[skullkrusher]

The fact that a section of scripture is not about us does not indicate that it is not profitable for us. Not even one detail contained in the entire historical portion of the Bible is about us, but it is all for our profit.

But then we must ask, if it is not about us, or anything that will happen in our time, why study it?

First, because God said it.

Second, because God promised a special blessing on those that heed the Revelation.

And third, because knowing what is coming makes us aware that the time is near, for we can see it all beginning to develop.

We do not agree on point #3 -- but that is a slightly different discussion (although you may not agree with that either, I undersatnd your point).

That said, I need to apologize and seek your forgiveness for my tone in some of our previous interchanges. According to your profile, you are several years my senior, not to mention obviously well-studied; I should have been more respectful of my elder, and was not. So, I confess my sin against you and ask your forgiveness.

Grace,
SK

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Wow.. Been Awhile. How yeah doing Lamorak?

Hey TheScottsMen! Yes, it has been a while, glad to see you back!


LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Fair enough -- in terms of clarification, my statement stands in relation to practicality -- can you honestly say (not trying to be at all provocative here) that the majority of those you know who spend time studying dispensatioinal eschatology do NOT focus the majority of their time trying to decipher time lines, symbols and imgery, etc., that directly pertain to events that, according to most dispensational views, will not occur unitl after the supposed pre-trib rapture? That is the thrust of my question.

Yeah, I can honestly say that the great majority of the dispensationalists I know don't spend their time on all that stuff. I'm not saying there aren't any more dispensationalists who do "newspaper" exegesis. The most likely ones would be those who follow popular teachers such as Dave Hunt. But then, interpreting the Bible and end times through current events has never been the exclusive pursuit of dispensationalists - there are plenty of nondispensationalists added in the mix as well. Boyer's book When Time Shall Be No More is a good read in this area.

Granting that Biblical principle is valid regardless of the immediate audience or subject, my point is that hundreds of thousands of Christians consume millions, if not billions, of hours each year pouring over theological questions that have little immediate practical value in their daily walk with the Lord. Don't you think that time could (should?) be spent striving to have as thorough an understandign of soteriology, pneumatology, theology proper, the doctrines of Scripture, inspiration, et al?

I absolutely agree that study of the Biblical text should impact our lives. As my professor once said, we should be tree students and not pipe students of the Word. Both trees and pipes convey water - but a tree uses the water to grow, while a pipe just transports it from one point to another without absorbing any of it. Likewise we should absorb what we learn from the Word rather than merely parroting it to others.

I agree that many Christians (not just dispensationalists) waste their time and energy on promoting - "piping" - shallow and repetitive theological arguments (and not just eschatological arguments). Bible knowledge and systematic theology, not exactly strong points for many Christians in the last few decades, has grown even weaker over the years. Whenever I teach or lead a study, I just set my sights on motivating people to read Scriptures. Because most just aren't reading the Bible these days, too many competing things. Did you know that the incoming students these days for seminaries are on the whole lacking the Bible/theology background as compared with students 10-20 years ago? So seminaries are having to adjust their courses accordingly. :o

So yes, even though we have different eschatological views, I think there is a lot of agreement on other issues.


LDG

 

[Biblewriter]

We do not agree on point #3 -- but that is a slightly different discussion (although you may not agree with that either, I undersatnd your point).

That said, I need to apologize and seek your forgiveness for my tone in some of our previous interchanges. According to your profile, you are several years my senior, not to mention obviously well-studied; I should have been more respectful of my elder, and was not. So, I confess my sin against you and ask your forgiveness.

Grace,
SK

I cannot comment on the age issue, for your public profile does not reveal your age. But your apology is accepted. I also sometimes become over-zealous and less than completely respectful of my brethren.

 

[Benefactor]

My point is not that I belive it is irrelevant. My point is that, within the dispensational framework, the practical relevance is highly limited; so much so that I think it is can be easily argued that the massive amounts of time Christians dedicate to the study of dispensationalism is poor stewardship; I'm posing an ethical dilemma easily inferred from the dispansational view.

Many of us, those that are dispensationalist, see our view as very practical and healthy. Giving us a realistic worldview and contributing to our walk with Christ in a truer sense because we are not trying to force into or upon Scripture what is not revealed or stated. .

Because we embrace this hermeneutic, which we believe to be the correct one, it ministers to us in the most practical way because it lets God’s word simply speaks, by which we acknowledge and accept.

Dispensationalism is a practical approach to God's word and accepts what is seen in God's unfolding plan to his Glory.

If you take the definition of what a dispensationalist believes and simply apply it at each dispensations (as already fully developed) it supports its premise. Dispensationalism is not rocket science; it just accepts what is revealed in God's word in the time and manor in which God has revealed it.

We use words to describe what we observe. Dispensationalists do exactly that without forcing the text to represent what it does not say. I see that as very helpful and beneficial to my walk and understanding of the unfolding of God's revelation.

I see dispensationalism as the most practical system of theology of all the systems.

God ran thing in the garden before the fall different than after. He ran things before the flood differently from after the flood. The introduction of the promise was new revelation in the unfolding of his plan. The giving of the law again something new and different all working toward His goal, His plan to His Glory and then we have the birth of Christ followed by His death burial and resurrection.

It is easy to look back and see the unfolding of how God has run his affairs among men and what He is accomplishing. It really is that simple and it is Biblical. Recognizing the different dispensations is not an attempt to miss lead, miss inform, force anyone to believe what is not presented, but simply recognizing what God is saying and doing over time. As we read from one book to the next we discover that God was doing this and now he introduces something else.

We can call the present time of God's affairs with us, the church age or age of Grace or dispensation of Grace as Paul called it. Regardless of the word or words we use to express what God is doing now - this present time is different form all previous times. Also the future kingdom is going to be different in many ways. Dispensational theology simply recognizes difference as his plan to His glory are worked out in the affairs of mankind.

There are other considerations but I have tried to keep it simple. Sometimes we get to caught up in the minute and in doing so we miss the obvious. Sometimes we need to step back and take an elementary approach to what we read and see to clear out the extraneous good efforts we all love to indulge in at the quest for understanding God's Holy Word.

I personally think it is impossible to disprove dispensationalism simply because it recognizes what is stated and taking place in the course of time as revealed in God's word.

Benefactor.

 

[skullkrusher]

Benefactor:

Thank you for your response. I do not agree that dispensationalism does not force anything into scripture that is not there; however, I must clearly state my agreement with/acceptance of the staement that dispensationalist do not do intentional isogesis. But the question remains, "Is dispensationalism inherently isogetical?" I believe most of what you stated above regarding the various dispensations can more clearly, easily, and consistently be addressed in terms of progressive revelation. Where dispensationalism begins to run into problems (in my view) is when we arrive at the Chruch Age/Age of Grace; dispensationa premillenialism essentially posits a future retrograde from grace back to Old Covenant forms when the Lord turns His redemptive focus back upon ethnic Israel -- it is this retrograde that (for me) is inherently problematic; granting that not all dispensationalists agree (which to me is indicative of the fact that dispensationalism is far from a simpe hermeneutic -- its theological implications are immensely complex, and I believe potentially destructive of the Gospel itself), the fact that a retrograde from the finished work of Christ back to the beggarly elements of the Old Covenant is a consistent implication of the system ought to cause anyone who loves and honors the Lord Christ to cringe, or at least to take a very studied pause in order to carefully and critically evaluate their theological assumptions.