No Compusion?

[smaneck]

Perhaps because crucifixion was the form of Roman punishment reserved only for those convicted of the worse crimes.

Crucifixion is a form of punishment which goes back a long ways and has been practiced by most civilizations.

It is not a form of execution generally used by Muslims.

But it is mentioned in the Qur'an for the very worst crimes.

 

[smaneck]

Yet you believe the uttering of a self proclaimed prophet, Mohammad.

I don't believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad simply because He proclaimed it.

It is becoming more and more obvious to the world that there is something hugely wrong with parts of Islam.

Which has what to do with whether or not you have personally learned things from hanging with militant Muslims as you claim?

 

[smaneck]

Poor Mansoor al-Hallaj. He was advised not to repeat his statements, even though he never meant them in a literal sense, as far as I can tell.

I agree. Al-Hallaj sticks out in Islamic history precisely because his treatment was an anomaly. Generally speaking behavior that would have gotten one burned at the stake in Christendom was tolerated within the Islamic world.

 

[smaneck]

OK.
Isn't it time people stopped torturing and displaying bodies? It's all very medieval.

I would agree with torturing people is very medieval. You may want to whisper this to Dick Cheney. As for displaying the bodies of people who are executed, if the death penalty exists to serve as a deterrent, what better way to achieve that end. Of course, most Western countries today have done away with the death penalty, but those who haven't seem to want to sanitize it, just like we only want to see the animals slaughtered for our benefit in nice neat cellophane wrap.

 

[cloudyday2]

I think parts of it are broken myself. That seems pretty clear at this point.

.

I would be hopeful that Islam will evolve into something more tolerant as the economies in the third world improve, but there is one problem - apparently many of the Jihadists grew-up in Western countries where they had good educations and job opportunities.

Maybe if birth rates decrease in the Muslim world then the idealism of younger generations will be balanced by the wisdom of older generations?

 

[smaneck]

Well, it does seem to be getting worse and worse. Boko Haram recently and now more troubles in Kenya today.

But doesn't it stand to reason that an organization which calls itself Books are Forbidden might not know much about their own Book? The fact of the matter is that Africa is an area riddled with violence as various ethnicities struggle over scarce resources. And Boko Haram has itself been a victim of such violence. Some 950 have died while under police custody. If anything, Christian on Christian violence in Africa has exceeded Muslim violence there.

 

[dlamberth]

I would be hopeful that Islam will evolve into something more tolerant as the economies in the third world improve, but there is one problem - apparently many of the Jihadists grew-up in Western countries where they had good educations and job opportunities.

Maybe if birth rates decrease in the Muslim world then the idealism of younger generations will be balanced by the wisdom of older generations?

Personally, I think the parts that are broken is are those tied to fundamentalism. The same with Christianity.

.

 

[smaneck]

I would be hopeful that Islam will evolve into something more tolerant as the economies in the third world improve, but there is one problem - apparently many of the Jihadists grew-up in Western countries where they had good educations and job opportunities.

It is true that many jihadists grew up in the West, but I would not assume they were recipients of greater advantages. They are not the sons of doctors like many Muslims born in the US. In Europe they are the underclass who fill the same employment niches that Hispanic do in the US. The first generation is generally grateful because it is still better than what they had back home, but the second generation sees only the discrimination they face and how they do not have the same opportunities as other Europeans.

Maybe if birth rates decrease in the Muslim world then the idealism of younger generations will be balanced by the wisdom of older generations?

Probably but not for the reasons you think. High birth rates coincide with poverty. When people become more prosperous birth rates go down. The prosperous have more to lose than the poor, and are less likely to risk it promoting radical change. The real powder keg is when you have a relatively educated population with few opportunities but high expectations.

 

[Rationalt]

Outta control in Syria.

As usual.

Typically.

...umm...who's in charge of Muslims? Who keeps them in line according to their religion? Who rules on who gets executed and how?

The quran (and hadiths) guide the muslim scholars and they in turn guide the Muslims.

To get an idea about compulsion read these;

quran 9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

The fight in arabic is qātilū which means deadly attack.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/skm60428.htm

 

[WoodrowX2]

The quran (and hadiths) guide the muslim scholars and they in turn guide the Muslims.

To get an idea about compulsion read these;

quran 9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

The fight in arabic is qātilū which means deadly attack.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/skm60428.htm

I doubt you will find many Muslims that would consider a single ayyat a command.

Even a minimal Muslim with just Family tradition being His Islamic Teaching ahould be aware of the full nature of Surah 9 and not see 9:29 as a command.

Even this old man who has only been a Muslim for 9 years knows the reasoning for Surah 9

It is all about Peace treaties and the problems that arise when a treaty is broken.

The entire Surah is related to the Peace Treaty of Hudaibiyah and the problems that arose when the non-Muslims broke the treaty.

If one reads the entire Surah they will find the conclusion and actual message of the Surah in the last 2 ayyats

"Follow the Messenger who is gentle and compassionate and your greatest well-wisher, and trust in Allah, the Lord of the Universe"

It has nothing to do with chasing down and attacking non-Muslims.

 

[Rationalt]

I doubt you will find many Muslims that would consider a single ayyat a command.

Even a minimal Muslim with just Family tradition being His Islamic Teaching ahould be aware of the full nature of Surah 9 and not see 9:29 as a command.

Even this old man who has only been a Muslim for 9 years knows the reasoning for Surah 9

It is all about Peace treaties and the problems that arise when a treaty is broken.

The entire Surah is related to the Peace Treaty of Hudaibiyah and the problems that arose when the non-Muslims broke the treaty.

If one reads the entire Surah they will find the conclusion and actual message of the Surah in the last 2 ayyats

"Follow the Messenger who is gentle and compassionate and your greatest well-wisher, and trust in Allah, the Lord of the Universe"

It has nothing to do with chasing down and attacking non-Muslims.

9;29 says nothing about peace treaties.It talks about faith and nothing but faith.

You cannot spin it any other way.

There are plenty of verses regarding fighting to spread muhammadism 9:29 is just an example.

 

[WoodrowX2]

9;29 says nothing about peace treaties.It talks about faith and nothing but faith.

You cannot spin it any other way.

There are plenty of verses regarding fighting to spread muhammadism 9:29 is just an example.

Read the full Surah. The lines in a Surah are not separate from the entirety. the Surah is all about Peace Treaties.

Ayyats 13-37 deal with the consequences of breaking a treaty. They have nothing to do with spreading Islam

 

[ContraMundum]

But doesn't it stand to reason that an organization which calls itself Books are Forbidden might not know much about their own Book? The fact of the matter is that Africa is an area riddled with violence as various ethnicities struggle over scarce resources. And Boko Haram has itself been a victim of such violence. Some 950 have died while under police custody. If anything, Christian on Christian violence in Africa has exceeded Muslim violence there.

So....are you justifying or giving apology for Boko Haram?

Why is always that whatever "Muslims" are doing "Christians" are doing worse or more or first or whatever?

Anyway- I don't see the world the way you do (politics= religion = politics) and I've even heard that the way to understand "Boko Haram" is not merely by translating the words, but their self-described intent which translates as "forbid Western Education", obviously using "boko" as a synecdoche.

 

[smaneck]

9;29 says nothing about peace treaties.It talks about faith and nothing but faith.

Ever hear of context?

You read the whole surah, not just one ayah by itself.

You cannot spin it any other way.

It is people who take things out of context that are engaging spin.

 

[smaneck]

So....are you justifying or giving apology for Boko Haram?

No, I'm just pointing out that this has more to do with Africa than it does religion.

Why is always that whatever "Muslims" are doing "Christians" are doing worse or more or first or whatever?

Only because you seem determined to blame these things on Islam whereas if you looked at the broader picture of genocide in Sub-Saharan Africa there is no way you could reach that conclusion.

Anyway- I don't see the world the way you do (politics= religion = politics)

I know. You see the world as muslim=bad, christian=good.

 

[ContraMundum]

No, I'm just pointing out that this has more to do with Africa than it does religion.

Not so sure. A year ago I might have agreed. Nigeria was a lot more peaceful years ago.

I know you see the world as muslim=bad, christian=good.

I don't think so. I don't see Christianity as a poltiical movement like you do.

 

[smaneck]

I don't think so. I don't see Christianity as a poltiical movement like you do.

Christianity is no more and no less political than any other religion.

 

[ContraMundum]

Christianity is no more and no less political than any other religion.

Maybe to you, a non-Christian. Not to me. I don't see Christianity as having a valid political arm.

 

[smaneck]

Maybe to you, a non-Christian. Not to me. I don't see Christianity as having a valid political arm.

The key word here is 'valid'. What you are doing in that case is comparing your 'ideal' of your own religion to the reality of others.

Makes it real easy for your religion to come out ahead.

 

[dlamberth]

Christianity is no more and no less political than any other religion.

At the same time there is a very strong undercurrent of believers who are trying to make Christianity into a political force. And they are pretty loud about it.

.