No Compusion?

[ContraMundum]

Outta control in Syria.

As usual.

Typically.

...umm...who's in charge of Muslims? Who keeps them in line according to their religion? Who rules on who gets executed and how?

 

[WoodrowX2]

Outta control in Syria.

As usual.

Typically.

...umm...who's in charge of Muslims? Who keeps them in line according to their religion? Who rules on who gets executed and how?

No Human is in charge of us.

We do not have any central leader. Not even any ordained clergy. We are to follow the laws of the nation we live in.

 

[Dialogues]

'No compulsion in religion' is in the Qur'an. However, those claiming to follow Islam often do not adopt it's teachings. This is a common problem.

 

[wn123455]

No Human is in charge of us.

We do not have any central leader. Not even any ordained clergy. We are to follow the laws of the nation we live in.

Some shia muslims have a central leader.

 

[dlamberth]

Outta control in Syria.

...umm...who's in charge of Muslims?

In Syria, War Lords?

.

 

[dlamberth]

However, those claiming to follow Islam often do not adopt it's teachings. This is a common problem.

Please, as I ask the following questions please know that if you knew the spiritual path I follow you will know that I am not Islamophobic.

As I look at the horrors made in the name of Allah, it is totally clear to me, and as you also say, there is a common problem for those who claim to follow Islam, but don't really. I have cried watching the horrors made in the name of Allah. I know the beauty that can be found with in Islam, I've seen it and though not a Muslim I have experienced it's inner beauty. So I know it's there in it's core. But it seems to me that a huge part of Islam is broken. There's the example in the OP. Than we have the horrors of Boko Harm in Nigeria which is now in the news as are other area's of Africa. Syria has become all about Muslim against Muslim and threatens to grow to surrounding countries. Iraq, the same. And Afghanistan as well. Egypt has major issues and Libya is still pretty unstable with it's militias.

I now wonder if a large part of Islam is broken beyond repair. But if not, what will it take to bring it back into balance?

.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Quoting Raymond Ibrahim does about as much good as quoting Pamela Gellar when it comes to Islaam or the Muslims. He's the same person who spread a false "rape fatwa" story about Syria. I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

As for the Syrian Christians of Maaloula, what that article says is at odds with what the Christian nuns taken by Jabhat an-Nusrah said (in a video made after Jabhat an-Nusrah had taken them, in the video during the prisoner swap I'll post below, and also after the prisoner swap). After they were swapped for some Sunni women prisoners held by Bashar, the nuns appeared on television and said they were treated very well by Jabhah.

There is also this video of the swap of the prisoners and the trip to that meeting place (you can see the ease with which the rebels and the nuns talk and the nuns are thanking them for their good treatment of them):

[youtube]L3ZZyRv3kSo[/youtube]

These nuns were called traitors by Syrian regime supporters because the nuns' version of events does not sit very well with pro-Bashar rhetoric.

 

[Dialogues]

Please, as I ask the following questions please know that if you knew the spiritual path I follow you will know that I am not Islamophobic.

As I look at the horrors made in the name of Allah, it is totally clear to me, and as you also say, there is a common problem for those who claim to follow Islam, but don't really.

I did not say or mean to say it was exclusive to Muslims. It is a common problem in all religions that a lot of people do not act according to it's teachings.

As you are, I assume, familiar with Sura Fatihah, you may be aware that Muslims say that the words 'those who incurred displeasure/wrath' applies to the Jews, and the words 'those who went astray' applies to the Christians. Well, the reason we are told to pray not to become like them, is that a group of Muslims was destined to become like them. Infact, this is elsewhere prophecied. Indeed the verse does not say 'ghayril yahood wa nasaara' (not the jews and christians). Are the aggressive Muslims of today not like the aggressive Jews of the time of Jesus a.s. when murderous people like Barrabbas were deemed as heroes?

Here are some excerpts from one website discussing this phenomenon of the prophecied corruption of Muslims:

"According to the Qur'an, on the Last Day the Prophet (saas) will say that his own people will have abandoned the Qur'an: "My Lord, my people treat this Qur'an as something to be ignored…" (Surat al-Furqan: 30) It is also revealed in the hadiths that, during the End Times, the Qur'an's guidance will be disregarded and people will stray from it.


Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread...(Bukhari)


There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it.(Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal)


A comparison is made in Surah Jumuah, verse 5:"The metaphor of those who were charged with the Torah but then have not upheld it, is that of a donkey carrying books…" There is no doubt that this verse applies as a warning to Muslims, reminding them that they must be careful not to fall into the same grave error. The Qur'an was sent down as a book of guidance for people to observe.


The Prophet (saas) said that, despite the fact that the Qur'an will be read, the knowledge and wisdom it contains will not be considered. This is another sign of the time of the End Times.


There will come a time upon the Ummat when people will recite the Qur'an, but it will not go further than their throats, (into their hearts).(Bukhari)


Allah's Messenger (saas) spoke of something and said: "It will happen when knowledge will be no more. " (Ziyad) said: "Allah's Messenger, how will knowledge vanish despite the fact that we will be reciting the Qur'an and teaching its recitation to our children and our children will teach its recitation to their children up to the Day of Resurrection?" Thereupon he (the Prophet (saas)) said: "Ziyad, do these Jews and Christians not recite the Torah and the Bible but not act according to what is contained in them?"(Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi)


"There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them." (Mishkatul Masabih, Kitabul Ilm)

Is it not true to say that the religious leaders are a major cause of the problem? More details here:

Signs of the Last Day - The Rejection of the True Religion

I have cried watching the horrors made in the name of Allah. I know the beauty that can be found with in Islam, I've seen it and though not a Muslim I have experienced it's inner beauty. So I know it's there in it's core. But it seems to me that a huge part of Islam is broken. There's the example in the OP. Than we have the horrors of Boko Harm in Nigeria which is now in the news as are other area's of Africa. Syria has become all about Muslim against Muslim and threatens to grow to surrounding countries. Iraq, the same. And Afghanistan as well. Egypt has major issues and Libya is still pretty unstable with it's militias.

It is a deplorable situation indeed.

I now wonder if a large part of Islam is broken beyond repair. But if not, what will it take to bring it back into balance?

Just as it is prophecied that Muslims will become like those who earned wrath and those who deviated of the Jews and Christians, it is also prophecied in Suratul Fatihah that there will be a group of the favoured ones. In the context of Jews and Christians, this is a reference to Jesus a.s., though it applies to all the prophets as favoured ones. And this is the prophecy of the coming of a Messiah among the Muslims in the latter days when corruption will have become widespread. It is the group of this Muslim Messiah that is referred to in the hadith:

"A time will come when my followers will become divided into seventy-three sects. All of them except one will deserve the fire."

Other ahadith state that the Jews were (at one time) divided into 71 sects, of which one was rightly guided, and the Christians were (at one time) divided into 72 sects of which one was rightly guided.

http://pearlsofislam.tumblr.com/post/18955529857/salam-another-anon-you-quoted-this-hadith-and

Further details here:

https://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000087.html

So, the Muslim world is divided into the three categories mentioned in Suratul Fatihah, and we are supposed to pray that we become one of the favoured ones, the followers of the Muslim Messiah and Imam Mahdi, the Guided Leader.

Peace.

 

[wn123455]

Quoting Raymond Ibrahim does about as much good as quoting Pamela Gellar when it comes to Islaam or the Muslims. He's the same person who spread a false "rape fatwa" story about Syria. I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

As for the Syrian Christians of Maaloula, what that article says is at odds with what the Christian nuns taken by Jabhat an-Nusrah said (in a video made after Jabhat an-Nusrah had taken them, in the video during the prisoner swap I'll post below, and also after the prisoner swap). After they were swapped for some Sunni women prisoners held by Bashar, the nuns appeared on television and said they were treated very well by Jabhah.

There is also this video of the swap of the prisoners and the trip to that meeting place (you can see the ease with which the rebels and the nuns talk and the nuns are thanking them for their good treatment of them):

[youtube]L3ZZyRv3kSo[/youtube]

These nuns were called traitors by Syrian regime supporters because the nuns' version of events does not sit very well with pro-Bashar rhetoric.

Which Syrian rebel faction do you support?

 

[ContraMundum]

Quoting Raymond Ibrahim does about as much good as quoting Pamela Gellar when it comes to Islaam or the Muslims. He's the same person who spread a false "rape fatwa" story about Syria. I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

I'd recommend that advice for anyone reading your posts, actually. You're quite the political propagandist.

As for the Syrian Christians of Maaloula, what that article says is at odds with what the Christian nuns taken by Jabhat an-Nusrah said (in a video made after Jabhat an-Nusrah had taken them, in the video during the prisoner swap I'll post below, and also after the prisoner swap). After they were swapped for some Sunni women prisoners held by Bashar, the nuns appeared on television and said they were treated very well by Jabhah.

Has the thought occured to you that there's more than these nuns in Syria and that not all have the same experiences there?

Of course in your world view Muslims never hurt anyone. Unless of course they're on the other side of your politics.

 

[ContraMundum]

No Human is in charge of us.

We do not have any central leader. Not even any ordained clergy. We are to follow the laws of the nation we live in.

I accept your answer as valid for your beliefs and it sounds agreeable too. I know Shias may think differently of course.

How do you feel about Islamist revolutionary movements like Hizb ut-Tahrir and how they would rather change the laws of their nations than live by them? How does this harmonize with your views?

 

[ContraMundum]

I did not say or mean to say it was exclusive to Muslims. It is a common problem in all religions that a lot of people do not act according to it's teachings.

As you are, I assume, familiar with Sura Fatihah, you may be aware that Muslims say that the words 'those who incurred displeasure/wrath' applies to the Jews, and the words 'those who went astray' applies to the Christians. Well, the reason we are told to pray not to become like them, is that a group of Muslims was destined to become like them. Infact, this is elsewhere prophecied. Indeed the verse does not say 'ghayril yahood wa nasaara' (not the jews and christians). Are the aggressive Muslims of today not like the aggressive Jews of the time of Jesus a.s. when murderous people like Barrabbas were deemed as heroes?

Here are some excerpts from one website discussing this phenomenon of the prophecied corruption of Muslims:

"According to the Qur'an, on the Last Day the Prophet (saas) will say that his own people will have abandoned the Qur'an: "My Lord, my people treat this Qur'an as something to be ignored…" (Surat al-Furqan: 30) It is also revealed in the hadiths that, during the End Times, the Qur'an's guidance will be disregarded and people will stray from it.


Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread...(Bukhari)


There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it.(Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal)


A comparison is made in Surah Jumuah, verse 5:"The metaphor of those who were charged with the Torah but then have not upheld it, is that of a donkey carrying books…" There is no doubt that this verse applies as a warning to Muslims, reminding them that they must be careful not to fall into the same grave error. The Qur'an was sent down as a book of guidance for people to observe.


The Prophet (saas) said that, despite the fact that the Qur'an will be read, the knowledge and wisdom it contains will not be considered. This is another sign of the time of the End Times.


There will come a time upon the Ummat when people will recite the Qur'an, but it will not go further than their throats, (into their hearts).(Bukhari)


Allah's Messenger (saas) spoke of something and said: "It will happen when knowledge will be no more. " (Ziyad) said: "Allah's Messenger, how will knowledge vanish despite the fact that we will be reciting the Qur'an and teaching its recitation to our children and our children will teach its recitation to their children up to the Day of Resurrection?" Thereupon he (the Prophet (saas)) said: "Ziyad, do these Jews and Christians not recite the Torah and the Bible but not act according to what is contained in them?"(Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi)


"There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them." (Mishkatul Masabih, Kitabul Ilm)

Is it not true to say that the religious leaders are a major cause of the problem? More details here:

Signs of the Last Day - The Rejection of the True Religion

It is a deplorable situation indeed.

Just as it is prophecied that Muslims will become like those who earned wrath and those who deviated of the Jews and Christians, it is also prophecied in Suratul Fatihah that there will be a group of the favoured ones. In the context of Jews and Christians, this is a reference to Jesus a.s., though it applies to all the prophets as favoured ones. And this is the prophecy of the coming of a Messiah among the Muslims in the latter days when corruption will have become widespread. It is the group of this Muslim Messiah that is referred to in the hadith:

"A time will come when my followers will become divided into seventy-three sects. All of them except one will deserve the fire."

Other ahadith state that the Jews were (at one time) divided into 71 sects, of which one was rightly guided, and the Christians were (at one time) divided into 72 sects of which one was rightly guided.

http://pearlsofislam.tumblr.com/post/18955529857/salam-another-anon-you-quoted-this-hadith-and

Further details here:

https://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000087.html

So, the Muslim world is divided into the three categories mentioned in Suratul Fatihah, and we are supposed to pray that we become one of the favoured ones, the followers of the Muslim Messiah and Imam Mahdi, the Guided Leader.

Peace.

A very informative post. Thank you.

 

[wn123455]

I'd recommend that advice for anyone reading your posts, actually. You're quite the political propagandist.



Has the thought occured to you that there's more than these nuns in Syria and that not all have the same experiences there?

Of course in your world view Muslims never hurt anyone. Unless of course they're on the other side of your politics.

lovebeingamuslimah thinks it is alright for the muslim majority indonesia to occupy and colonize the mostly non-muslim West Papua. lovebeingamuslimah thinks uighur islamist terrorist attacks are resistance.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7767980-30/#post65435148

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

I'd recommend that advice for anyone reading your posts, actually. You're quite the political propagandist.

When have I done what Raymond Ibrahim has done on multiple occasions by maliciously spreading false information about a group/religion I hate?

Has the thought occured to you that there's more than these nuns in Syria and that not all have the same experiences there?

And has the thought occurred to you that Raymond Ibrahim is a liar who has a deep hatred for Islaam & the Muslims and his accusations should not be taken at face value? He quotes other sources that are also obscure and not verified. The video I showed is definitely of the nuns and the nuns also appeared on television later on in front of reporters.

Of course in your world view Muslims never hurt anyone. Unless of course they're on the other side of your politics.

Don't pretend to know me or my world views. Unsurprisingly, you're wrong.

 

[wn123455]

When have I done what Raymond Ibrahim has done on multiple occasions by maliciously spreading false information about a group/religion I hate?



And has the thought occurred to you that Raymond Ibrahim is a liar who has a deep hatred for Islaam & the Muslims and his accusations should not be taken at face value? He quotes other sources that are also obscure and not verified. The video I showed is definitely of the nuns and the nuns also appeared on television later on in front of reporters.



Don't pretend to know me or my world views. Unsurprisingly, you're wrong.

I am surprised you used a source like theamericanmuslim. theamericanmuslim views on West Papua is different from yours. Do you only read the parts of the theamericanmuslim website you like? Do you ignore the parts of the theamericanmuslim website you do not like?

The American Muslim (TAM)

 

[football5680]

No compulsion in religion has been abrogated. If they were a Christian or Jew, the first thing they were supposed to do was subjugate them and turn them into second class citizens. The people who did it would probably try to justify it by saying he was fighting against Allah and his messenger which probably isn't true.

 

[ContraMundum]

And has the thought occurred to you that Raymond Ibrahim is a liar who has a deep hatred for Islaam & the Muslims and his accusations should not be taken at face value?

I don't care about Ibrahim or your gripes with him. The nun he refers to I do accept as well as other sources. That's enough for me. I only picked Ibrahim's article because it was the one I found that didn't have graphic images. Do a search yourself- he's not the only reporter on this trail.

This is not about "Islam hating" or anything of the sort.

Don't pretend to know me or my world views. Unsurprisingly, you're wrong.

I can only go on what you write. To this reader, your world view is almost entirely politicized and fundamentalist. If I'm wrong, then you are not getting through and you can't just blame the reader.

 

[Dialogues]

No compulsion in religion has been abrogated.

A large number of Muslims would strongly disagree with that. The verse is recited in the mosques during prayer and when people do their own individual recitation of the Qur'an. It has not been expunged in any way. Some salafis and other extremists may see it differently and consider it abrogated, but salafis and such like do not represent all the Muslims.

If they were a Christian or Jew, the first thing they were supposed to do was subjugate them and turn them into second class citizens.

Even if so, compulsion would mean forcing them to become Muslims. Requiring citizens of the state to pay tax is something which every government does, and which Jesus also told the Jews to do to Rome (give unto caesar what belongs to caesar). So if you criticise the Qur'an, why don't you condemn Jesus in the same breath? Were the Jews not 'subjugated' by the Romans and 'second class citizens'? Was Jesus ignorant of these facts?

The fact is that Islam gave them complete religious freedom, and did not even require them to do military service in defence of the state. In lieu of this military service, all those who were capable of military service (able bodied men) except priests etc., were required to pay tax to the state so that others may do such service instead of them. So these second-class citizens lived at peace in their homes whilst others (Muslim men) took the pains of doing military service to protect all the citizens of the state.

If however, the dhimmi citizens were willing to do military service and were given the opportunity to do so i.e. there was no fear that they would use those weapons against the state), as did happen at times, they were exempt from the jizya. In contrast, Muslims were required to pay zakat to the state even when they did military service, and those Muslims who didn't do military service were still required to pay zakaat (if applicable to them under religious rules), which was set at a higher rate than jizya anyway. So, the rules were more taxing on the Muslims. There was not even an incentive to become Muslims to avoid the jizya.

So, clearly, the verse on jizya affirms that there is to be no compulsion in religion, even further strengthening the directive. If you think jizya means someone has second class status, you can believe so, but paying jizya instead of zakaat is a sign of the justice of Islamic teachings, giving people their right to believe whatever they wish of their own free will.

The people who did it would probably try to justify it by saying he was fighting against Allah and his messenger which probably isn't true.

Perhaps some extremist and terrorist organisations try to give it that misinterpretation, but waging war against Allah and His Messenger s.a. is without doubt referring to physical warfare and bloodshed, and a very large number of Muslims would say so.

Peace.

 

[wn123455]

A large number of Muslims would strongly disagree with that. The verse is recited in the mosques during prayer and when people do their own individual recitation of the Qur'an. It has not been expunged in any way. Some salafis and other extremists may see it differently and consider it abrogated, but salafis and such like do not represent all the Muslims.

Even if so, compulsion would mean forcing them to become Muslims. Requiring citizens of the state to pay tax is something which every government does, and which Jesus also told the Jews to do to Rome (give unto caesar what belongs to caesar). So if you criticise the Qur'an, why don't you condemn Jesus in the same breath? Were the Jews not 'subjugated' by the Romans and 'second class citizens'? Was Jesus ignorant of these facts?

The fact is that Islam gave them complete religious freedom, and did not even require them to do military service in defence of the state. In lieu of this military service, all those who were capable of military service (able bodied men) except priests etc., were required to pay tax to the state so that others may do such service instead of them. So these second-class citizens lived at peace in their homes whilst others (Muslim men) took the pains of doing military service to protect all the citizens of the state.

If however, the dhimmi citizens were willing to do military service and were given the opportunity to do so i.e. there was no fear that they would use those weapons against the state), as did happen at times, they were exempt from the jizya. In contrast, Muslims were required to pay zakat to the state even when they did military service, and those Muslims who didn't do military service were still required to pay zakaat (if applicable to them under religious rules), which was set at a higher rate than jizya anyway. So, the rules were more taxing on the Muslims. There was not even an incentive to become Muslims to avoid the jizya.

So, clearly, the verse on jizya affirms that there is to be no compulsion in religion, even further strengthening the directive. If you think jizya means someone has second class status, you can believe so, but paying jizya instead of zakaat is a sign of the justice of Islamic teachings, giving people their right to believe whatever they wish of their own free will.

Perhaps some extremist and terrorist organisations try to give it that misinterpretation, but waging war against Allah and His Messenger s.a. is without doubt referring to physical warfare and bloodshed, and a very large number of Muslims would say so.

Peace.

Christians and Jews get to be dhimmis. What about people who are not Christians, Jews or muslims? How would Hindus be treated under Shariah law? How would Atheists be treated under Shariah law? How would Buddhists be treated under Shariah law? How would Pagans be treated under Shariah law? Do you realize some sunni muslims consider Ahmadiyya muslims to be non-muslims? Ahmadiyya muslims are not Christians. Ahmadiyya muslims are not Jews. How would you like to live under Shariah law run by sunni muslims who are the majority of muslims? Why don't you ask lovebeingamuslimah whether or not he thinks Ahmadiyya muslims are muslims? Ask lovebeingamuslimah how would Ahmadiyya muslims be treated under Shariah law run by sunnis.

 

[Zoness]

Christians and Jews get to be dhimmis. What about people who are not Christians, Jews or muslims? How would Hindus be treated under Shariah law? How would Atheists be treated under Shariah law? How would Buddhists be treated under Shariah law? How would Pagans be treated under Shariah law? Do you realize some sunni muslims consider Ahmadiyya muslims to be non-muslims? Ahmadiyya muslims are not Christians. Ahmadiyya muslims are not Jews. How would you like to live under Shariah law run by sunni muslims who are the majority of muslims? Why don't you ask lovebeingamuslimah whether or not he thinks Ahmadiyya muslims are muslims? Ask lovebeingamuslimah how would Ahmadiyya muslims be treated under Shariah law run by sunnis.

Based on what I have seen, Atheists probably have it even worse than Christians and Jews. After all Christians and Muslims all have religion and theism in common; which puts them at odds with those heathen Atheists or non-theists. Hindus definitely don't have it much better, at least in Pakistan. (Source)