No Church?

[repentant]

There are some who claim there is no authoritive Church on earth, and they rely on their own interpretations and thoughts to come to conclusions on what Scripture says, or what is right, what they must do, etc. So basically they put all authority in Scripture. I have a question for these people. Can you show one time in Scripture where anyone (other than Jesus) such as the Apostles, did anything on their own accord, or from their own mind? In other words, can you show an instance to where an Apostle rely's on himself to do anything?

To me it is quite the opposite. If your read Scripture, especially Acts, it seems that whenever an Apostle did wnything, they were told to do it, and if they went anywhere, they were sent. So how can you justify not having to hold yourself liable to an authority on earth, such as an established Apostolic Church?

And also add to that, can you show one instance where a person became a Christian all by themselves?

 

[SpiritDriven]

Hello Repentant.....you and I both know from Scripture that nobody becomes a Christian except by the will of God.

I think Church is ok for those who want and enjoy the fellowship.... however there are some who do not want to have to go to Church because they do not feel the need for that fellowship.

Many start out in the Church...and then out grow it...matured and confident in.... the Lord accomplishing what concerns us.... so to speak.

Peace

 

[IamAdopted]

Depends on what it is your really asking. In our assembly if one is sent we pray about it. We believe in the authority of scripture. We allow Christ to be the head of our assembly. If one has a leading from the Lord to go we as brothers and sisters gather around and pray that the gifts and callings of the Lord be revealed in this and to bring it to pass for this one who is felt lead to be sent. Our authority is not in man but in Christ and His word.

 

[BrotherDave]

Ask yourself these two questions:

1. How does one become saved?
God works through the hearing of his word (Romans 10:17, Eph 1:13, Eph 5:26, Eph 3:4, I Peter 1:23, I Thess 2:13, John 15:3 ). It is in this environment God will save those He intends to. A Church or a person cannot do anything to become a Christian (if we define Chrisitan as one that is truly saved by God).

2. What was the reason the local Church was created?
It was created to spread the Word of God so that God could save those he intends to (Rom 9:15). What is the Word of God? The Bible. Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14). It is the word of God that will also judge men on the last day (Ro 2:16), another lesson the church should be proclaiming.

Originally God worked through individuals to bring his message to the world because the printing press was not yet invented. Then God used the synagogues and then churches to bring his word because scripture was hard to come by and many could not read. So to be under the hearing of the word people had to group together and listen to educated men read them scripture. Unfortunately, man had to be the caretakers of the word. Man is full of pride and enjoys having power (Eph 4:17-19, Mark 7:21-23) so the message of the bible was quickly perverted and as result “the church” put itself on the same level of God. Believing “they” have the power to save people as long as the people do what they say they need to do they will be secure in their salvation. The poor people who put their faith in the church rather than trusting in God alone will be taken by surprise at the end of the world and Christ will say He never knew them (Mat 15:7,8, I Th 5:3, Matt 7:22,23), even though they thought they were safe and were doing good works in His name.

In our day anyone can get a Bible and study God’s Word. God also has given us technology (radio, TV, shortwave, computers, audio tapes…) in which we can listen to the Bible being read all over the world.

In all cases, Old Testament or New, God worked in the hearts of individuals (Psalm 62:1,5). We all have a personal relationship with the Lord (Phil 2:13). God does all the work of salvation. He calls his sheep (John 10:3, John 6:37,Romans 1:6) they hear his word and he gives them a new soul in which they sincerely desire to do God’s will, which is to spread his word until all His people have heard it. Then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).

Our focus must be on the Lord and scripture. It is only by God’s grace (Eph 2:8, Eph 3:7) and mercy (Eph 2:4) that He opens eyes and ears and grants understanding and wisdom to those he desires. A Church, especially today is not needed. We are back to individuals being the caretakers of His word. God teaches us through the Bible (John 16:13, 14). His spirit witness with ours (Ro 8:9,14,16) . It is the word of God that brings salvation. For example, as Christ was discussing scripture with his apostles they were saved (Luke 24:34). Paul knew the teachings of Christ and God saved him when it was his time (Galatians 2). In Acts 4:4, 5000 were saved after hearing the word.

There is nothing more important in this life than frequent prayer (I Thess 5: 17) and a proper understanding of scripture (Col1:10) so we know how to live for God (Gal 6:4,I John 2:3) and are not led astray by false gospels created by men.

In Christ’s Service
David

 

[xposure]

There are some who claim there is no authoritive Church on earth, and they rely on their own interpretations and thoughts to come to conclusions on what Scripture says, or what is right, what they must do, etc. So basically they put all authority in Scripture. I have a question for these people. Can you show one time in Scripture where anyone (other than Jesus) such as the Apostles, did anything on their own accord, or from their own mind? In other words, can you show an instance to where an Apostle rely's on himself to do anything?

To me it is quite the opposite. If your read Scripture, especially Acts, it seems that whenever an Apostle did wnything, they were told to do it, and if they went anywhere, they were sent. So how can you justify not having to hold yourself liable to an authority on earth, such as an established Apostolic Church?

And also add to that, can you show one instance where a person became a Christian all by themselves?

Paul did. After he was filled with the Holy Spirit he left right then and went off teaching and spreadking the Good News without even consulting the "church" or anyone else.

In the Old Testament the Israelites and Jews were punished time and time again and thier religion was eventually brought down to ruins becaues the people were following it and its priests false teaching. Hosea 4 discusses this.

The Holy Spirit leads someone to the truth in teh bible. God can over come any problem a person might have...learning disability, ect. If you are truely reading with the right frame of mind and attitude and are filled with the Holy Spirit then God is going to open your eyes so Jesus can teach you.

Jesus is the Teacher and no one can ever learn the true message of the bible on thier own accord or based on thier own wisdom. Understanding has to come from the Holy Spirit.


My personal belief is that being a disciple (or student) of Jesus requires a lifestyle that puts God as #1. As such I believe going to church a couple hours a week in no way makes someone a student of Jesus that makes God #1 in thier life. People need to come to God, feed on his EVERY Word as Jesus instructs, allow the Holy Spirit to lead them to the truth and teach them. Once they have figure out what God wants from then if they feel they need to go to a church they will be equiped to find a church that agrees with what the Holy Spirit has taught them. The only alrertative is to just accept information and theology because you just feel like someone else must know better. Eventhough if they all taught the same there wouldnt be so many religions, denominations, sub denominations, untold number of undenominational that teach what they want, ect, ect, ect. That is when someone is in danger of becoming like the Israelites and thier religion. The Holy Spirit doesnt discriminate you just have to have the HS and live for God.

Of course some people might think, well when you study it yourself you are in danger of false teaching...and that would be true if you are doing it on your own accord...but like I said no one can learn the truth on thier own accord. People need to let the Holy Spirit teach them the truth. They need to pray for wisdom and understanding and God will show and teach them the bible. I have found that as i make changes in my life based on what He is teaching me that my understanding increases.

God Bless!
Student of Jesus

 

[SpiritDriven]

Have you noticed that Forums like these have the potential to spread the word even faster to more people globaly and as a result they read their Bible more ?

 

[xposure]

Have you noticed that Forums like these have the potential to spread the word even faster to more people globaly and as a result they read their Bible more ?

I have, that is actually one of the reason that I am here. Through my personal relationship with God he has put me on a mission to bring Christians to his word so that he can teach them. There are sooooooooo many Christians that own piles of bibles and never open them. They have every Christian book known to man that they spend time reading it instead of thier bible. People need to get back into the entire bible. Forums are a great way to foster that.

 

[ticker]

Hey there repentant. Nice to meet you.

Just wanna respond to some of the stuff you said here. I'm not trying to knock you or anything, but I need to focus on individual points.

There are some who claim there is no authoritive Church on earth,

Well, there's no authoritative "anything" on earth that we need to look to. No authoritive bible, no authoritive belief system, no authoritive church or person. God is the one and only authority. One only "needs" to look to Him.

and they rely on their own interpretations and thoughts to come to conclusions on what Scripture says, or what is right, what they must do, etc.

...Are you sure though that a lot of them aren't also using the services of the Holy Spirit in this process?

Can you show one time in Scripture where anyone (other than Jesus) such as the Apostles, did anything on their own accord, or from their own mind? In other words, can you show an instance to where an Apostle rely's on himself to do anything?

But who says the people you question are in fact relying on themselves? Again...are you sure they're not using the services of another? The apostles relied on Jesus, and so should we (...good thing He's still around! )

So how can you justify not having to hold yourself liable to an authority on earth, such as an established Apostolic Church?

Because the "established" church is a man made creation...one that which in a lot cases is designed to hold on to it's power. I would however agree that looking to our "church" family and running things by them is important. We need each other...we don't "need" the established church. If anything, it needs us...(which was actually the message this morning at my church...pretty cool).

And also add to that, can you show one instance where a person became a Christian all by themselves?

Nope...and again, I don't think most Christians who have a good understanding of their faith would say that they do anything by themselves...but that they rely on God, Alpha to Omega.


That's it. Thanks for readin'

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Hello Repentant.....you and I both know from Scripture that nobody becomes a Christian except by the will of God.

I think Church is ok for those who want and enjoy the fellowship.... however there are some who do not want to have to go to Church because they do not feel the need for that fellowship.

Many start out in the Church...and then out grow it...matured and confident in.... the Lord accomplishing what concerns us.... so to speak.

Peace

YOU OUTGROW THE BODY OF CHRIST???

What a concept!

 

[Thekla]

maybe the differences in view here on Church revolve around views on the Eucharist/Communion ?

For those of us who believe in the actual presence of the body and blood of Christ, the Church and attending are seen differently ...

 

[Strong in Him]

ALL Christians are the church. Catholics, anglaicans, baptists, Methodists, URC etc etc are all memebers of the body of Christ, with Jesus as the head. "The eye cannot say to the hand 'I don't need you', and the head can't say to the feet 'I don't need you.' " (1 Corinthians 12:21). We are all equally loved by Christ, all equally important to him, and should be to each other. No man made denomination is superior to any other.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

ALL Christians are the church. Catholics, anglaicans, baptists, Methodists, URC etc etc are all memebers of the body of Christ, with Jesus as the head. "The eye cannot say to the hand 'I don't need you', and the head can't say to the feet 'I don't need you.' " (1 Corinthians 12:21). We are all equally loved by Christ, all equally important to him, and should be to each other. No man made denomination is superior to any other.

I have to say AMEN to every word you have posted here.

Now, can you imagine outgrowing the Body of Christ?

 

[xposure]

I would have to disagree. All people who have the Holy Spirit are a part of the Body of Christ. There are many many many many people who claim to be Christians and go to Christian churchs who are not part of the Body of Christ.

If you are filled with the Holy Spirit it doesnt matter if you attend a church (little c) you are still a part of His Church (big C meaning the Body of Christ).

 

[Peaceful Dove]

I would have to disagree. All people who have the Holy Spirit are a part of the Body of Christ. There are many many many many people who claim to be Christians and go to Christian churchs who are not part of the Body of Christ.

If you are filled with the Holy Spirit it doesnt matter if you attend a church (little c) you are still a part of His Church (big C meaning the Body of Christ).

How do you know who is a Christian or not or any of the rest?
How do you know that??? I am sure it is your opinion and you think it and maybe believe it but I doubt if you have any way of knowing it.

 

[Albion]

Hi. Like Ticker before me, I feel that you've raised a number of ideas in this one OP, so I feel that answering each as I go is the easiest and probably best thing to do.

There are some who claim there is no authoritive Church on earth, and they rely on their own interpretations and thoughts to come to conclusions on what Scripture says, or what is right, what they must do, etc.

I guess that there are such people. I count them as relatively few, however.

So basically they put all authority in Scripture.

I can't agree that that's so. In my experience most of them are saying to us that they've had direct contact with God or with the Holy Spirit and have been inspired to teach something that scripture did not.

I have a question for these people. Can you show one time in Scripture where anyone (other than Jesus) such as the Apostles, did anything on their own accord, or from their own mind? In other words, can you show an instance to where an Apostle rely's on himself to do anything?

To me it is quite the opposite. If your read Scripture, especially Acts, it seems that whenever an Apostle did wnything, they were told to do it, and if they went anywhere, they were sent. So how can you justify not having to hold yourself liable to an authority on earth, such as an established Apostolic Church?

Apparently they think that, like Paul, God has chosen them for a particular task. Or, if not exactly that, that they are prophets. As we know, the New Testament says that there will be such people.

And also add to that, can you show one instance where a person became a Christian all by themselves?

What would "all by themselves" mean, exactly? I have the hunch from the rest of your comments about Apostles and being sent that you mean a church organization. If that is what you mean, the answer is clear. YES! There are innumerable instances of peoples, tribes, etc. being converted by self-appointed preachers or just by having the Bible or other Christian writings fall into their hands.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Nowhere do the apostles minister of their own initiative. They did it sent by God. Authority comes therefore directly from God. How then does this fact make the opinions of men authoritative?

 

[WashedBytheSon]

There are some who claim there is no authoritive Church on earth, and they rely on their own interpretations and thoughts to come to conclusions on what Scripture says, or what is right, what they must do, etc. So basically they put all authority in Scripture. I have a question for these people. Can you show one time in Scripture where anyone (other than Jesus) such as the Apostles, did anything on their own accord, or from their own mind? In other words, can you show an instance to where an Apostle rely's on himself to do anything?

To me it is quite the opposite. If your read Scripture, especially Acts, it seems that whenever an Apostle did wnything, they were told to do it, and if they went anywhere, they were sent. So how can you justify not having to hold yourself liable to an authority on earth, such as an established Apostolic Church?

And also add to that, can you show one instance where a person became a Christian all by themselves?

You can choose not attend any church and still rely on Scripture solely.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Well, there's no authoritative "anything" on earth that we need to look to. No authoritive bible, no authoritive belief system, no authoritive church or person. God is the one and only authority. One only "needs" to look to Him.

Amen . Whatever is your authority is in this context is your god . If the "bible" is your authoprity ( not actually in the "bible" ) , then that is your god . If the "church" , then that is your god . There is but one and only one authority in these matters - the Lord .

Nope...and again, I don't think most Christians who have a good understanding of their faith would say that they do anything by themselves...but that they rely on God, Alpha to Omega.

Amen , again .

 

[repentant]

Paul did. After he was filled with the Holy Spirit he left right then and went off teaching and spreadking the Good News without even consulting the "church" or anyone else.

Wow, I must be psychic. I knew someone would say this, and you are wrong. Paul did NOTHING on his own accord. After he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus, what happened, or more precisley, what did Jesus tell Paul? Here is verse 6 from Acts 9:

"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

Paul has to go into the city of Damascus, where he went to the house of Judas. Meanwhile, the Lord spoke to Ananiasin a vision, telling him to go to Judas' house and meet Paul. Ananias placed his hands on him, restored his sight, and after Paul was Baptized. He remained with him for several days preaching. After this he goes and meets the Disciples whon initially were afraid of him, but Barnabas spoke on his behalf. SO after this, "When the brothers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus." Acts 9:30 Paul was sent to Tarsus.

So here we have, Paul was talked by Jesus, who told him to go to the city. He went, and was GIVEN the Holy Spirit by Ananias. He was then Baptized. Preached for a little bit, went to the Apostles who sent him to Tarsus. And if you go on in Acts, you will that Paul was either sent or taken somewhere..

So I ask again, name one instance in the Bible where someone did anything, or becam a Christian on their own accord..?

 

[icedtea]

I would have to disagree. All people who have the Holy Spirit are a part of the Body of Christ. There are many many many many people who claim to be Christians and go to Christian churchs who are not part of the Body of Christ.

If you are filled with the Holy Spirit it doesnt matter if you attend a church (little c) you are still a part of His Church (big C meaning the Body of Christ).

Absolutely. One is under the 'authority' of whoever is the pastor of their church, no matter the denom.