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Humanae vitae gives the best answer. A husband must be attentive to his wife, and her needs; not use her for a baby machine or sex machine.Shelb5 said:To all those who think NFP is a loophole,
If you think it is a loophole than what? Do you think that we are to have child after child with no regard for the cross that God gives us that may render that not possible for the time being or eve indefinite, or do you think we can contracept artificially as we please?
I have asked the question before but no one provided an answer or an opinion. I'll re phrase it, what do those who think NFP being a loophole think about God making the women's body just the way He did? I mean men are fertile all the time but women are not, why do you think He did that? Did He make man fertile all the time so he can use condemns during the womens fertile period and or did he make men fertile all the time so a woman can take some chemical or use a device to change when she is fertile? Or do you think He made a women infertile at times so it can all be up to chance if she may conceive on any given occasion or not?
For those who believe the latter, I leave you with this, the mother from Texas who suffered greatly and significantly from mental illness and ended up in a psychotic episode killing her 5 children. her Husband did not believe in any contraception at all either.
The are legitimate reasons to space children, postpone a pregnancy for a indefinite amount of time. If ones spouse life was seriously in jeopardy if she were to have a child year after year, would it be good and holy if she were to ignore that, keep having children and die, leaving her living children with out a mother?
There is a great difference in becoming pregnant with out being at risk and then having something go wrong and choose to give your life for the life of a child, but yet another to test the situation by saying if God wills, it will be fine when God has let you know, there is grave danger involved.
You all must understand that it is not God but the fallen world we live in that can render the circumstance and situations that would make children not possible for a legitimate reason, we live in a imperfect fallen world.
Humanae vitae said:If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)
Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.
boughtwithaprice said:Humanae vitae gives the best answer. A husband must be attentive to his wife, and her needs; not use her for a baby machine or sex machine.
Caedmon said:Well maybe I'm wrong. I'm just saying how I feel about it. If it's really what the Church teaches, then I'll study it some more. I would be willing to do it if something serious was going on, but it would still make me sad, because I love life. And I think that that's the way it should be. NFP shouldn't be something you use for an extra new flashy car and be mr. and mrs. happy yay-we-got-a-new-sedan. It should be something that you don't look forward to, because you want to have babies, but something that you will do to avoid tragedy and extreme hardship.
geocajun said:Caedmon, I agree with you, that NFP should not be used to help someone be selfish.
Trust me, after abstaining from sex for a few weeks, there had better be a serious and just reason for it!
LongingForLight said:I've only read the first few posts and the last few posts.
Also, NFP is different from ABC because it requires more sacrifice. You are saying, "God, I realize that I cannot make the sacrifice involved in giving myself to a child just yet, so I will sacrifice the pleasure of sexual union for a period of time to avoid this other inprudent sacrifice." Not the same thing as the ABC-user, who is saying (at best), "God, I realize that I cannot make the sacrifice involved in giving myself to a child just yet, so I will take this pill/use this piece of rubber/ insert this piece of metal inside me / etc. to make it more likely that when I enjoy sexual union with my spouse during the fertile period we will not conceive a child." I think that anyone can sense a fundamental difference between these two statements. A varient on the contracepting side that is different from the one stated before but is still common is this: "God, I don't want to deal with the difficulties of another child right now, so I'm going to contracept to make sure that I can have the pleasure of sex with my spouse during the fertile period as well as the infertile period without having to take on another child". This is even more obviously anti-life, or at least not pro-life.
This is my (very wordy) take on things.God bless everyone, there have been some great posts on this thread. I'm going to go read some more of them.
-Ethel
Humanae vitae said:If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)
Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.
LongingForLight said:Not only did I read your quote, I've actually read through Humanea Vitae
My post was aimed more at any people who were saying that NFP should almost never be used, and financial reasons are mostly bogus, and a little at those who didn't see why NFP is different. I did a lot of research on this subject around the time I first started posting here at OBOB, since I was struggling with the church's teachings on ABC. NFP seemed like ABC to me at first, and I still have trouble saying why they are different. However, I *do* believe that they are different, now, and I don't think it's just brainwashingAnd charting is useful even without using it for preventing an imprudent pregnancy. I won't go into details here, since I might embarress the gentlemen
Incidentally and off-topic, at my NFP class there was one brave single man who attended - not engaged, not even dating. He wanted to know what is involved with NFP so he could discuss it intelligently with his female coworkers. Now, *that* is a guy who will have a lucky wife someday. Not as lucky as me, of course - I can't wait to marry Bjorn!
boughtwithaprice said:Oh, and you can't embarass me............I am a doctor............but the other gentlemen I don't know about
I know the Creighton method will not as her hormones will throw the matter off for that, but I am not sure about billings - Shannon?proud2bcatholic said:geo,
Will the Creighton or the Billings Ovulation work for you two?
LongingforLight,
Have you discussed NFP with Bjorn? What are his thoughts about it now?
geocajun said:my wife just found out that the sympto-thermal method is not going to work for us - she has to go get some blood work done because her hormones are more all over the place than a normal womans are
I think I will be chopping alot of wood in the interim.. this could take a while to figure out.
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