Newbie question on masturbation

[kerneweck]

Apologies. I'm sure this has been answered before but is masturbation clearly defined as a sin or is there much debate on it?

 

[sylntklrz]

ill post on this one because I like to tease my friends on this.
masturbation is a form of homosexuality because it does not matter if your playing with your self or someone of the same sex, your still being aroused and climaxing by doing it. lot of my friends disagree with me, but its because they dont want to give it up, they say its ok because they are looking at a erotic photo or film which I believe causes a person to have emoral thoughts, which I believe is a sin. someone correct me if im wrong, ive been going to church for only 2 yrs so im still learning. god bless

 

[DamianWarS]

God has created us to be very relational. Many even say that our deep relationship need is the very "image" of God that we were created in. The focus of relationship is in fact the very focus of grace itself. Grace gives us forgiveness but on a whole it is about restored relationship with God through forgiveness because without grace we have no access to a personal relationship with God. If we look at the flip side sin is about separation from God and essentially is counter productive to relationship; together we see sin and grace in a constant battle.

Sex is designed by God to be relational in that it is meant to be with a man and a woman. There are many ways to sexuality stimulate ourselves but just because we can do that doesn't make the focus God intended. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 6:12 "“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial." Paul is saying just because we can do it doesn't make it right he goes on saying that our bodies are for the Lord and the Lord for our bodies. Paul actually uses "sexual immorality" as the context and although masturbation can be defined as sexual immorality that is not so clear. But essentially we need to do our actions as if directed to God as God also has a very clear and direct focus on us as individuals.

Some might argue that our bodies need a sexual release so masturbation is a better focus for that need than something else and even that God has equipped us for a quick release like this. Perhaps masturbation is better than having sex but the focus is still in the wrong place and should still be corrected.

I agree that our sexual focus in North America is wrong even down to how and when we get married. Our bodies are not intended to be celibate until we are 28 years old when we feel it is the right time to get married. But also in our culture getting married at 15 is very taboo. Our culture defines our "right of passage" when we finish school and start a career where many other culture's rights of passage happens at a much earlier age like 12 or 13. This off centred approach has created an void in our sexual need and it is a constant struggle for Christians because of our desire to honour sex in marriage and our conflicting desire to have sex in the "right now". So it is easy to seek the immediate sexual gratification in the name of persevering sex but this focus is as wrong as sex itself outside of marriage because we miss the point.

Masturbation is the wrong focus of sex and thus it inherently is wrong and sinful. However that does not correct the sexual void that is in our culture when our bodies are very much ready and have a very real sexual need. So what does that mean... it means it is an even harder struggle for Christians to focus what God designed for us. 1 Corinthians 9:22 says "I have become all things to all people..." Paul here is saying that we need to uphold the highest standard. Christ's law is first and after that it is our cultural law. With the focus of sex in North American this is difficult to commit to because of the imbalance in North America and the very intentional focus of marriage God has.

In the end this means that a laps of this focus is almost inevitable because it is a broken system to begin with, not God's design but God's designed applied to our culture's design; they are just not compatible. So basically it is inevitable that we will put an incorrect focus on sex (such as masturbation) but just because something like that happens doesn't mean we should embrace the idea that it is right. We need to recognize the imbalance that our culture has created contrasted with what God has intended. Our culture has been corrupted through sin, just as we all are, so we need to seek restoration as individuals living in a corrupted environment. This restoration is accomplished through grace and through it we have access to the direct presence of God. This is where we find the correct focus God intended for us so no matter what has transpired always seek out grace and that restored relationship.

We are born into sin and by nature of that sin we are separated from God and need grace to restore us. It doesn't matter what focus of sex we take, correct or even incorrect, we will also need grace. We need to sometimes surrender our "ideas" of why masturbation is right for us and simply just seek God in all our actions. Grace is not for special moments it is a perpetual system for constant restoration and we need to embrace this and in turn constantly seek relationship with God in all our actions which should reflect the focus God designed not the focus our culture has designed.

 

[chingchang]

Apologies. I'm sure this has been answered before but is masturbation clearly defined as a sin or is there much debate on it?

Of course it isn't a sin. Little kids do it and they don't even know what they are doing. It is a normal human function and God designed us to feel and enjoy pleasure. If you really want to know the various Christian thought on this issue...use the search function. This issue has been discussed ad nauseam.

CC

 

[sylntklrz]

I replied to this thread because I tease my friends about this subject, I think there response is funny. but wow, this may be my first post but I got to say I think im going to learn alot here, atleast I hope I do cause im always asking questions, I always want to learn more. im really looking forward to this now.

 

[DamianWarS]

Of course it isn't a sin. Little kids do it and they don't even know what they are doing. It is a normal human function and God designed us to feel and enjoy pleasure. If you really want to know the various Christian thought on this issue...use the search function. This issue has been discussed ad nauseam.

CC

the actions of "little kids" and mature adults cannot always be group as the same things. Certainly I'm sure we can all understand that children are motivated differently and with different understanding. A child for example is not sexuality motivated because it is a concept that is foreign to them unless of course they have inappropriate exposure (like abuse). As adults however our exposure to sexuality is much different and we cannot approach masturbation without applying our sense of sexuality to it as well.

Masturbation for adults is a very a sexual action where as for a child it can actually be completely removed from any sexuality at all. Little kids do not touch because of sexual desires, or because of sexual needs like for example for a release, they would instead do it out of things like curiosity or innocent exploration.

So we cannot approach masturbation like as a child does because we are not children. We are adults with adult minds, adult behaviours, and adult motivations. We are not fooling anyone when we excuse our behaviour simply because children do it; we need to grow up and act like adults.

People may claim that masturbation as an act is sinless; without lust it is merely a pleasure without consequence. However we cannot dismiss the connection of sexuality with masturbation. As children we are not sexual so masturbation is not a sexual act nor should it be thought as that however as adults it is a very sexual act and we need to treat it with the same respect that we treat sex itself. Although the bible may seem silent on the subject there is a clear design from God for our sexual organs.The Bible shows us a picture of a woman designed for a man and a man design for a woman. Together they make one unit and the design of their sexual organs is a vital part of this union; they speak of relationship and togetherness. When we touch we seek our own pleasure which is void of relationship. Void of relationship with God or with a mate. This is contrary to the point of sex itself and in essence goes against the design it was intended for and even the design of us as a whole which is focused around relationship. When we remove a God-centred focus from our actions, which is about restored relationship through Christ, the action is not for God but against and is a sin.

 

[revrobor]

The act of masturbation is not addressed anywhere in Scripture.

 

[chingchang]

the actions of "little kids" and mature adults cannot always be group as the same things. Certainly I'm sure we can all understand that children are motivated differently and with different understanding. A child for example is not sexuality motivated because it is a concept that is foreign to them unless of course they have inappropriate exposure (like abuse). As adults however our exposure to sexuality is much different and we cannot approach masturbation without applying our sense of sexuality to it as well.

Masturbation for adults is a very a sexual action where as for a child it can actually be completely removed from any sexuality at all. Little kids do not touch because of sexual desires, or because of sexual needs like for example for a release, they would instead do it out of things like curiosity or innocent exploration.

So we cannot approach masturbation like as a child does because we are not children. We are adults with adult minds, adult behaviours, and adult motivations. We are not fooling anyone when we excuse our behaviour simply because children do it; we need to grow up and act like adults.

People may claim that masturbation as an act is sinless; without lust it is merely a pleasure without consequence. However we cannot dismiss the connection of sexuality with masturbation. As children we are not sexual so masturbation is not a sexual act nor should it be thought as that however as adults it is a very sexual act and we need to treat it with the same respect that we treat sex itself. Although the bible may seem silent on the subject there is a clear design from God for our sexual organs.The Bible shows us a picture of a woman designed for a man and a man design for a woman. Together they make one unit and the design of their sexual organs is a vital part of this union; they speak of relationship and togetherness. When we touch we seek our own pleasure which is void of relationship. Void of relationship with God or with a mate. This is contrary to the point of sex itself and in essence goes against the design it was intended for and even the design of us as a whole which is focused around relationship. When we remove a God-centred focus from our actions, which is about restored relationship through Christ, the action is not for God but against and is a sin.

It isn't that complicated. This is an example of the "mental gymnastics" Christians go through to justify their dogma. Rev. Allen...a wise old Christian...just told us everything we need to know about masturbation. It isn't mentioned in scripture ANYWHERE...just like having a bowl of ice cream isn't mentioned. I hope you're not insinuating that we should tell teens that it is a sin to touch...yet expect them not to have premarital sex? That is a recipe for disaster!!!

CC

 

[DamianWarS]

It isn't that complicated. This is an example of the "mental gymnastics" Christians go through to justify their dogma. Rev. Allen...a wise old Christian...just told us everything we need to know about masturbation. It isn't mentioned in scripture ANYWHERE...just like having a bowl of ice cream isn't mentioned. I hope you're not insinuating that we should tell teens that it is a sin to touch...yet expect them not to have premarital sex? That is a recipe for disaster!!!

CC

masturbation is a broken solution to fix a broken system. I cannot fully say it is "sinful" as an act alone but I do know ultimately masturbation is not the goal we should be striving for and it is not a system that God intends for us.

God's will is different for each person and can be contrasted very boldly so what's right for you may not be right for me. Our culture tends to set the bar of how God contextualizes his will for our lives. God's design supersedes culture but we are limited by how we are defined by our culture. If we cannot get past our cultural flaws from our own limitations and blindly are going against what God has designed is that a sin? I will admit I do not know.

I don't exactly know how sin is defined through cultural ignorance but I do know that there are examples of how God allows behaviours that go against his design because of the limitation of the culture. In the example of divorce in Mathew 19 Jesus says "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard". So here we see the people failed to grasp the overall picture and accepted something less for themselves. This is an example of God's grace not his acceptance but it is clear it is the wrong focus God intends for us.

Perhaps masturbation in non-habitual form and used for a release is an example of our limited perspective of what God has for us and maybe it can be loosey defined as something God allows; certainly grace covers all our sins no matter how aware we are of them. However when we embrace masturbation we loose the larger picture God has for us and we limit ourselves because we limit God's ability to work through us by accepting something that does not contribute to God's design.

Premarital sex is also not the answer but these both are really just broken solutions that only have the immediate fix in mind. They do not contribute to what God has in mind for us. The focus should not be masturbation or sex instead all in our actions we should strive to for restored relationship with God which is the point of grace. When we masturbation grace still reaches but we have missed the point and will only limit how much God can work in our lives.

 

[ServantJohn]

It isn't that complicated. This is an example of the "mental gymnastics" Christians go through to justify their dogma. Rev. Allen...a wise old Christian...just told us everything we need to know about masturbation. It isn't mentioned in scripture ANYWHERE...just like having a bowl of ice cream isn't mentioned. I hope you're not insinuating that we should tell teens that it is a sin to touch...yet expect them not to have premarital sex? That is a recipe for disaster!!!
CC

How is that a recipe for disaster? Sounds like a recipe for learning some self discipline.

"Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sins: That now he may live the rest of his time in the flesh, not after the desires of men but according to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1,2 DRB)

Masturbation may or may not be a sin in and of itself, but lust clearly is. Can you touch successfully without lust? Have you ever masturbated and not been tempted to lust? Instead of trying to figure out what all we can get away with as a Christian, why don't we see what all we can overcome as a Christian.

 

[Armistead14]

Children MB because it feels good. By the time you reach puberty, it's a formed habit. Since God created the body, we know God created puberty that makes us have sexual thoughts, urges and desires. To say that sexual thought is sin is saying God created the sin, because he designed puberty that creates sexual thought and urges..

Without sexuality, the urges and desires, we would not go through the growing process of desiring a mate.

There is a reason 99% of people can't stop MBing....because God never intended you to stop. It's a natural process that starts in childhood. After puberty sexual thoughts come into play. It's God's natural process of the body.

Churches through history have always lumped all sexuality into one big sin pile. For the most part many Christians see sex as evil and never truly learn to enjoy it even in marriage.

Many Pastors teach MB as totally normal, like James Dobson. Stay away from radicals. These corrupt groups like "every mens battle" will destroy a normal teens life, leading him into a revolving door of guilt and repenting over MB.

 

[dayhiker]

Hi Servant John,
I see the Bible telling us to avoid sin but I don't see the Bible also saying and avoid every thing that we might think is close to sin. I understand Jesus to be saying those things are the rules of men that Jesus was so upset with the Pharisees about putting yokes on peoples necks that they can't stand up under.

dayhiker

 

[Zebra1552]

Perfectly fine to do.

http://students.eng.fiu.edu/~denver/pdfs/Masturbation.pdf

Provided your conscience doesn't bug you.

 

[Zebra1552]

the actions of "little kids" and mature adults cannot always be group as the same things. Certainly I'm sure we can all understand that children are motivated differently and with different understanding. A child for example is not sexuality motivated because it is a concept that is foreign to them unless of course they have inappropriate exposure (like abuse). As adults however our exposure to sexuality is much different and we cannot approach masturbation without applying our sense of sexuality to it as well.

Stimulation of a sex organ isn't sexual stimulation? Do tell. How do you know what kids are and are not thinking? They do it because it feels good, and it's a sexual area of the body. How isn't it sexually motivated?

Masturbation for adults is a very a sexual action where as for a child it can actually be completely removed from any sexuality at all. Little kids do not touch because of sexual desires, or because of sexual needs like for example for a release, they would instead do it out of things like curiosity or innocent exploration.

Prove it.

So we cannot approach masturbation like as a child does because we are not children. We are adults with adult minds, adult behaviours, and adult motivations. We are not fooling anyone when we excuse our behaviour simply because children do it; we need to grow up and act like adults.

This assumes that people do it because kids do it. This is far from the motivation many people have for masturbating, myself included. Prove that the behavior is wrong.

People may claim that masturbation as an act is sinless; without lust it is merely a pleasure without consequence. However we cannot dismiss the connection of sexuality with masturbation.

So what? It's sexual. Why is this a big deal?

As children we are not sexual so masturbation is not a sexual act nor should it be thought as that however as adults it is a very sexual act and we need to treat it with the same respect that we treat sex itself.

How WE treat sex has no bearing on this conversation. What the Bible says matters, and it says nothing about masturbation. Masturbation isn't sex. There's no other person involved. It cannot be between two people. Again, you assume that children somehow have sex cut out of their lives. Where does it come from in us, then?

Although the bible may seem silent on the subject there is a clear design from God for our sexual organs.The Bible shows us a picture of a woman designed for a man and a man design for a woman. Together they make one unit and the design of their sexual organs is a vital part of this union; they speak of relationship and togetherness. When we touch we seek our own pleasure which is void of relationship.

You do the same thing when you read, play video games, watch movies solo, eat solo, and do any number of other activities by yourself for pleasure. Your argument here fails. The rest of your argument does as well, because it is a solitary act. The Bible has nothing to say about solitary sexual acts, only sexual acts with other people.

Void of relationship with God or with a mate.

Christians can touch. I'm living proof. You can have a relationship with God and pleasure yourself.

This is contrary to the point of sex itself and in essence goes against the design it was intended for and even the design of us as a whole which is focused around relationship. When we remove a God-centred focus from our actions, which is about restored relationship through Christ, the action is not for God but against and is a sin.

Prove that masturbation is sex.

 

[Zebra1552]

masturbation is a broken solution to fix a broken system. I cannot fully say it is "sinful" as an act alone but I do know ultimately masturbation is not the goal we should be striving for and it is not a system that God intends for us.

If you can't say it's sinful, then why are you trying to imply it every sentence you write?

 

[The Tolerant Atheist]

Only if you don't use protection, son.

 

[ServantJohn]

Hi Servant John,
I see the Bible telling us to avoid sin but I don't see the Bible also saying and avoid every thing that we might think is close to sin. I understand Jesus to be saying those things are the rules of men that Jesus was so upset with the Pharisees about putting yokes on peoples necks that they can't stand up under.

dayhiker

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14 RV)

dayhiker,
You completely misunderstould what I wrote. Here is a quote from my first post:
"Masturbation may or may not be a sin in and of itself, but lust clearly is."
If you don't believe lust is a sin, you need to read this:
"But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28 MKJV)

As for my final sentence in my previous post, "Instead of trying to figure out what all we can get away with as a Christian, why don't we see what all we can overcome as a Christian.", I believe that principle is upheld in 1 Corinthians 6:12 that reads,"All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any." (RV).

The Pharisees were being charged with hypocrisy and an unwillingness to help others to meet the standards they tought. This leading to a religious environment of guilt instead of love. In Matthew 5:28 above, you see that Jesus added onto or clarified the commandment "You shall not commit adultery." (Exodus 20:14 MKJV). Yet Jesus says,"Take My yoke on you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." (Matthew 11:29-30 MKJV).

 

[Zebra1552]

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14 RV)

dayhiker,
You completely misunderstould what I wrote. Here is a quote from my first post:
"Masturbation may or may not be a sin in and of itself, but lust clearly is."
If you don't believe lust is a sin, you need to read this:
"But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28 MKJV)

As for my final sentence in my previous post, "Instead of trying to figure out what all we can get away with as a Christian, why don't we see what all we can overcome as a Christian.", I believe that principle is upheld in 1 Corinthians 6:12 that reads,"All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any." (RV).

Which leads to the question, what is lust? I've already provided a link to address this, and lust isn't what you seem to think it is.

 

[ServantJohn]

Which leads to the question, what is lust? I've already provided a link to address this, and lust isn't what you seem to think it is.

After reading the pdf at the link you provided, I was not impressed with the paper at all. It looks like a paper written by a first year siminary student. He fails to fully support his argument. He uses a Bible translation that adds confusion to the texts he discusses when almost every other translation out there does not have that confusion. The only reasons I can see for this is that he only read the verse in one translation and assumed all others were the same or he used the one version out there that gave him the opportunity to sound smart by correcting it. There was no need for this and it only confused the situation instead of clearly making his point.

As for the two points he was arguing, he did not carry out his thoughts fully to support his conclusions. I could see him maybe getting a C on this paper but not worth using to support your own view of the definition of lust. Here are a few quotes from the article that we can focus on.

1. "Lust means desire not thought, therefore erotic fantasies are not necessarily the lust Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5:28."
2. "Lust is actually the same word as covet in the Greek (Ex. 20:17). We can covet our neighbor's stuff, or we can covet earnestly the best gifts (1 Cor 12:31). Just like adultery and fornication are perversions of God's gift of sex, lust is a perversion of the sexual desire God gave us. Just like sex is only wrong if we have it with the wrong person, lust is wrong if we desire (covet) someone who is not our spouse."

The first quote is the second point he says he is going to argue though he actually argues it first and that not effectively or logically. He never once defines what an erotic fantasy is and then distinguishes it from lust. He simply says what he thinks lust is and says an erotic fantasy isn't necessarily that. What kind of argument is that? Seriously?

I propose now that an erotic fantasy is lust because it is born out of desire. Have you ever fantasized about something that you didn't desire? OK, maybe you had a scary daydream or something but we are talking about deliberate fantasizing, not daydreaming. I would also argue that this is where the volition the writer argues actually comes in.

Having a lustful thought pass through our minds as a temptation is not sin and most Christians know that. It becomes a sin when we do not take that thought captive into obedience to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5) and instead we choose to feed our flesh with it. Instead of letting it pass on through, we consider it and take ownership of the thought through an act of our will (volition). Remember, it's not a sin to be tempted, it's a sin to give into that temptation.

Now concerning the second quote. Cheddie (the author of the article), actually makes a very good point here. Problem is, the point he is making actually goes against the arguments he is supposed to be proving. This brings in the tenth commandment; thou shalt not covet... (Exodus 20:17). Coveting has nothing to do with intent to break one of the other laws such as "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14) which seems to be the authors entire argument for erotic fantasies and masturbation not being sin. He argues that there is no intent there to take someones wife, etc.
I can look at my neighbor's house and covet it, yet never intend on doing something to make it mine. I can covet his wife and never intend on making her mine. Here are a few quotes about the tenth commandment and coveting:

• "This is certainly the language of discontent at our own lot, and envy at our neighbour's, and these are the sins principally forbidden here." - John Wesley
• "The others forbid all desire of doing what will be an injury to our neighbour; this forbids all wrong desire of having what will gratify ourselves." -Matthew Henry
• "As the sixth, seventh, and eighth commandments forbid us to injure our neighbor in deed, the ninth forbids us to injure him in word, and the tenth, in thought." - Albert Barnes

From these insightful men whom many would call "experts" when it comes to matters of faith, we see that covetousness is rooted in envy, discontentment with what God has given us, and wrongful self gratification. I cannot think of a better way to describe what an erotic fantasy is and here the Bible says it is SIN!

Many men who become enslaved to erotic fantasies and masturbation have a hard time enjoying sex with their wives. If you don't believe me, Google "Does masturbation make it harder to enjoy sex with your wife?", and read all of the posts by men concerned about their ability to perform or enjoy their spouse and wondering if it is related to the fact that they touch and look at porn.

I could go all day but I'll stop here. I think that most would agree that having a thought which tempts you to lust or covet is not sin but acting upon that thought to actually lust or covet is sin. I think most reasonable people would also agree that erotic fantasies by their very nature are either lustful or covetous. It should also be clear at this point that although Matthew 5:28 may mean to actually intend to act upon the thoughts, the tenth commandment is clearly talking about ones thoughts and any volition here is directed at ones making a choice to entertain covetous thoughts, not to break one of the other commandments.

 

[Zebra1552]

After reading the pdf at the link you provided, I was not impressed with the paper at all. It looks like a paper written by a first year siminary student. He fails to fully support his argument. He uses a Bible translation that adds confusion to the texts he discusses when almost every other translation out there does not have that confusion. The only reasons I can see for this is that he only read the verse in one translation and assumed all others were the same or he used the one version out there that gave him the opportunity to sound smart by correcting it. There was no need for this and it only confused the situation instead of clearly making his point.

As for the two points he was arguing, he did not carry out his thoughts fully to support his conclusions. I could see him maybe getting a C on this paper but not worth using to support your own view of the definition of lust.

He carried out his thoughts just fine: That lust is directly connected to coveting, which is very different from lust being just sexual desire or just a few sexual thoughts. A simple analysis of the words he mentions will show this. I don't cite it as an end-all resource, I cite it as supporting evidence. So rather than ripping his writing style, address the evidence.