New York Catechism (it does exist!)

[OpenDoor]

Presbyterian.

And?

I guess you don't like Presbyterian...

Boettner was the one who cites from the Catholic Catechism by Cardinal Pietro Gasparri (the NY Catechism).

It looks like it is not a quote but several parts fussed together.

 

[Dark_Lite]

I guess you don't like Presbyterian...

Boettner was the one who cites from the Catholic Catechism by Cardinal Pietro Gasparri (the NY Catechism).

It looks like it is not a quote but several parts fussed together.

No, Boettner was the one who made up a false quote in order to spread vicious lies and hatred. He says he cites from an obscure book, but as we have seen it is at best a bunch of unrelated stuff strung together.

 

[Foundthelight]

I guess you don't like Presbyterian...

Boettner was the one who cites from the Catholic Catechism by Cardinal Pietro Gasparri (the NY Catechism).

It looks like it is not a quote but several parts fussed together.

There is absolutely nothing linking the book you cite to the infamous New York Catechism other than where it was published. Please do not claim that it is one and the same without further documentary evidence.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

The New York Catechism does not exist. The quotation(s) cited, are not Catholic quotations. It is laughable on its face, that one thinks it is. Fundie websites are only where one sees that faux-quotation, at all, ever.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I guess you don't like Presbyterian...

Boettner was the one who cites from the Catholic Catechism by Cardinal Pietro Gasparri (the NY Catechism).

It looks like it is not a quote but several parts fussed together.

If you want Catholic Catechism, read it directly.
Also i posted [the long post] what it says about the Pope.



DOnt go to anti Catholic ministers - ever - for what the Church teaches.
If they agreed with it, they would be Catholic.
So its not like they want to post truth or anything even close to flattering about the Church.

Capise?

 

[OpenDoor]

The New York Catechism was an EPISCOPALIAN catechism; never a Catholic one. And the Episcopalians were giving a fabricated quotation within the catechism. It is not a Catholic quotation. It is laughable on its face, that one thinks it is. Fundie websites are only where one sees that faux-quotation, at all, ever.

what?

 

[OpenDoor]

There is absolutely nothing linking the book you cite to the infamous New York Catechism other than where it was published.

Are you kidding?

 

[MoonlessNight]

Are you kidding?

OpenDoor, it would do everyone a lot of good (and strengthen any case you may be trying to make) if you would take a deep breath, and make a post where you state your argument, collect your evidence, and say what you think this means.

Your short responses make it difficult to know what you are trying to say, and do little to convince anyone. This is especially problematic in that you seem to concede that you are overstating your case, and then attack those who say that the link between your quote and a real Catechism is weak at best.

I want to believe that you are just too hurried to make yourself clear, or a poor communicator or something like that, and not that you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts.

 

[Foundthelight]

Are you kidding?

There is a post in another forum that supposes that the book you mentioned is the "New York Catechism" That does not rise to the level of documentary proof or even come close.

No, I am not kidding. You are grasping at straws. If you cited that thread as evidence for a research paper in any college you would have your head handed to you.

 

[Michie]

Well, when you want something to be true from sources you see as true... it's hard to let go.

Cut through the grapevine & read the offficial CCC.

Seriously.

Save yourself a lot of embarrassment & headache.

 

[OpenDoor]

Boettner wrote in one of his works, that a book called the New York Catechism teaches that the Pope is the, "the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth."

It has been claimed that no such book exists (kinda true). There is NO book titled the New York Catechism.

However, there is a book titled The Catholic Catechism, written by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri. Printed by P.J. Kenedy & Sons, 12 Barclay Street, New York. On the page which contains the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur shows the names of Msgr. Arthur J. Scanlan and Patrick Cardinal Hayes. When reviewing the book the former was the rector of St. Joseph's Seminary, the major seminary of the Archdiocese of New York, and the latter as is prominently listed under his name was the Archbishop of New York. Then, underneath both of them it says "New York, July 16, 1932".

Boettner then refers to The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparrias the New York Catechism (not the proper title).

In the The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri language is used similar to what Boettner claims. However, "the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth" is NOT an exact quote, but a compilation of several statements throughout the book (including footnotes).

Now was Boettner being dishonest when he said New York Catechism (The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri) calls the Pope, "the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth." Possible, since it appears that no such exact quote exists.

However, Boettner claims that The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri makes several references throughout the entire book that shows (at least in Boettner's opinion) that The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri teaches-

That the Pope is the arbiter of the world
That the Pope is the supreme judge of heaven and earth
That the Pope is the judge of all, being judged by no one
That the Pope is God Himself on earth

 

[Foundthelight]

You have yet to show that Boettner was referring to The Catholic Catechism. Is it listed in a bibliography in any Boettner book?

Are you still using that tenuous assumption in another thread on another site that The Catholic Catechism and The New York Catechism are the same?

Why won't you directly answer the questions I have asked of you?

 

[MoonlessNight]

I appreciate that you put the argument together, but I'm afraid it doesn't do much to convince me. You accept that Boettner was dishonest in that he presented a quote which doesn't exist. You then claim that nevertheless surely there must be similar language to the controversial quote, because the noncontroversial quote can be found. I have no idea why you would think this, unless you were willing to take any stick you can beat the Church with.

If you really are committed to the notion that Catholics in New York were taught that the Pope is God on Earth then find the book, and quote it. Why rely on Boettner when you can go to the original source? If you don't do that I hope you are at least able to see why your argument will convince no one (the only people to agree with it will be those who already agree with you anyway).

All you have proven at this point is that there was a Catechism used in New York which taught non controversial things like the Pope being head of the Church. Furthermore there is the fact that Boettner had a very controversial quote which he claims came from the "New York Catechism" which made these non controversial claims in addition to the controversial ones. If you can't see that you need to more to connect these two facts that's not a whole lot I say for you.

What particularly depresses me is how quick you are to jump the gun and imply (since you are too timid to outright say it) "see, this shows what Catholics really think!" whenever you have answered a question brought to you in the laziest fashion possible. If you were concerned about the truth of the matter, you would be looking for this book or getting exact quotes (with page number!) from someone who has it. The fact that you don't go this far shows that all you really want to do is claim that Catholics teach things that they don't.

 

[tadoflamb]

Can't we just find the book? Surely it's not that obscure if it contains the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Maybe the Vatican has a copy.

 

[Dylan Michael]

Can't we just find the book? Surely it's not that obscure if it contains the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Maybe the Vatican has a copy.

I really think it'll be hard to find a book that doesn't actually exist.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Why does anyone follow or even ascribe to someone's 'preaching' who is willing to deceive in order to make a point?

How is that following Christ?

Doesnt it say God hates liars?

If he is preaching deceptively, then therefore his fruits are what then...?
Think about it.

 

[JSRG]

While it is true that this topic is from over a decade ago, it is one of the first things that turns up if one searches for "New York Catechism", meaning people searching will come across this topic, so it felt prudent to post here for reference.

For recap: There is a quote people sometimes share that is attributed to a work called the "New York Catechism". It reads thusly:

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth …by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth."

The original source of this quote is a work called Roman Catholicism (1962) by Loraine Boettner. He gives the above quote and attributes it to the aforementioned "New York Catechism." No information about this catechism is given, nor a page number. It is often claimed by Catholics that the work simply does not exist.

The original poster here apparently was told that, but then made this topic to offer a claim that it does exist, linking to a (no longer available) discussion on the Catholic Answers Forum. It appears that in said discussion, it was suggested the work being cited as "The Catholic Catechism" by Pietro Gasparri, which was printed in New York. However, it was apparently also noticed that the quote was not actually found in the work.

When this topic occurred, there was no way for anyone to look it up for themselves unless they found a physical copy, so all of this discussion was based on secondhand information. But since then, copies of Pietro Gasparri's work are available for reading online. You may view it here (I have set it to link directly to the relevant page, page 98):
Gasparri The Catholic Catechism 1932 : Gasparri, Pietro, 1852–1934 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Or, if one would prefer a version that only shows two pages at a time (the above one shows four), you can view it here:
The Catholic Catechism 1932 Gasparri : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The pages linked above are the closest thing one finds in the catechism to what is quoted from the "New York Catechism". However, what we actually see in the document is this:

"The Roman Pontiff is called the visible head of the Church and the Vicar of Christ on earth because, since a visible society needs a visible head, Jesus Christ made Peter, and each successor of his, to the end of the world, the visible head and the viceregent of His own power... By divine right the Roman Pontiff has over the Church a primacy not only of honour but of jurisdiction, and this both in things concerning faiths and morals and in discipline and government... The Roman Pontiff has supreme, full, ordinary, and immediate power both over each and every Church, and over each and every Pastor and his flock... The lawful successors of the Apostles are, by divine institution, the Bishops; they are set over particular churches by the Roman Pontiff, and govern them by their own proper power under his authority."

The book is written in question-and-answer format so all the ellipses I used above are doing is taking out the questions. Some parts are a bit similar to the quote offered, but even those are paraphrases, and some parts of the the quote attributed to the "New York Catechism" do not appear at all in the above, including the most controversial part (where it refers to the pope as "the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth.")

So, if this is the "New York Catechism", then the quote offered from it is very inaccurate. If this is not the "New York Catechism", then we return to the fact we've simply been unable to find it (aside from the early 19th century Episcopalian catechism sometimes referred to as such, which is clearly not what is in view, and does not seem to have the quote either as far as I can tell), and it is difficult to take the quote seriously if it cannot be verified.

So I suppose this post up until this point didn't add any new information, but did add confirmation of the information given.

As long as I'm discussing this topic, I suppose I might as well add one more thing, namely this:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Sadliers_Catholic_Directory_Almanac_and/b-DQAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq="new+york+catechism"&pg=RA5-PP23&printsec=frontcover

This is a Catholic almanac from 1883, and it includes an advertisement for what it calls the "Small New York Catechism", the full title of which is "The Catechism; or, A Short Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine. Newly Revised. For the use of the Catholic Church in the United States. To which is added a Prayer before and after Catechism." I seem to recall someone somewhere else (cannot remember where) saying that this might have been the work in question. While I cannot find a copy of the work to be absolutely sure, I do not think it is what is in view. This is most likely simply a New York printing of the catechisms you can find here that have a similar title (specifically containing "A Short Abridgment of the Christian Dotrine, Newly Revised"):
A Catechism or short abridgment of Christian doctrine [microform] : newyly revised for the use of the Catholic Church : Catholic Church. Diocese of Quebec : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
A Short Abridgment Of The Christian Doctrine; Newly Revised And Augmented, For The Use Of The Catholic Church In The Diocese Of Boston ; published with the approbation of B. Fenwick. : Catholic Church. Archdiocese of Boston (Mass.) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
(their prefaces are slightly different but once the catechism itself starts, they seem identical)

If the "Small New York Catechism" is simply that catechism printed in New York, it would disqualify it because those do not contain the quote (a search indicates the pope is only mentioned once, and not in conjunction with the quote). Additionally, if this was the catechism, it was printed prior to 1883--it is hard for me to believe that given the hostility to Catholicism that was present at the time, that no Protestant critic of the Catholic Church apparently took notice of this quote until nearly a century later. In any event, if this work improbably does contain the quote, the onus is on the person advancing the quote as accurate to demonstrate it.

Anyway, like I said because information is now easily available online that was not available at the time of this topic, and the fact that this topic turns up as one of the top hits if one searches for "New York Catechism", I felt it would be good to share this extra information that one can use to confirm for themselves that it is not found in Gasparri's catechism, because otherwise this topic was entirely secondhand reports on what Gasparri's catechism said.