New Methodist Theology??

[CelticRebel]

Indeed, and that speaks well of the Celtic Church. Some people believe that Brigid of Ireland was a Bishop.

She was, and I have proof, should you or anyone like to see it.

 

[circuitrider]

I'm guessing it is a icon with her wearing a mitre and carrying a shepherd's staff?

 

[CelticRebel]

I'm guessing it is a icon with her wearing a mitre and carrying a shepherd's staff?

No, no. I may have to wait till I get home to post it because I saved the links on my home computer. I might have posted it on another forum. Let me do some searching.

 

[CelticRebel]

I found them! The ancient Celtic Church differed from Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and the later Protestantism, in various ways:

http://www.arcwp.org/art_always.html

A quote from this article:

"In "Meehan, Praying with Celtic Holy Women," I wrote that The Irish Life of Brigit describes the episcopal ordination of St. Brigit of Kildare by Bishop Mel of Ardagh in fifth century Ireland.

The evidence in the Celtic Church indicates that women and men were equals in preaching the Gospel, presiding at Mass and at the other sacraments. Historian Peter Ellis wrote that in the sixth century, three Roman bishops at Tours wrote a letter to two Breton priests Lovocat and Cathern, expressing their outrage that women were allowed to preside at Eucharist. "You celebrate the divine sacrifice of the Mass with the assistance of women to whom you give the name conhospitae (monasteries where men and women lived together and raised their children in the service of Chris) ...While you distribute the eucharist, they take the chalice and administer the blood of Christ to the people... Renounce these abuses...!"

In mixed-gender monasteries, men and women worked as equals. However, the overall authority within a double monastery often resided with an abbess. St. Brigit selected Conleth to help her administer Kildare, and they governed "their church by a mutual, happy alliance."

The tradition of a Christian seeking a spiritual guide, mentor or "soul friend" was a prevalent Celtic custom. Women as well as men served as spiritual friends. This custom eventually influenced the entire Church and led to the institutionalizing of private confession. There are stories of spiritual seekers coming to Saint Ita and Saint Samthann to reveal their sins and to receive forgiveness and guidance."

http://www.unc.edu/celtic/catalogue/femdruids/FalloftheDruidesses.html

http://www.unc.edu/celtic/catalogue/femdruids/Bridget.html

http://www.faithandworship.com/Celtic_Christianity.htm

http://www.faithandworship.com/Celtic_Christianity_today.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigit_of_Kildare

 

[PrincetonGuy]

But I'll point you to some clues. Look for Priscilla and Aquilla who co-pastored a church in the NT period. Also check out Phoebe a Deacon of the Church. As a start. There other other examples.

My Baptist denomination ordains women, and some of churches that belong to my Baptist denomination have women serving as their senior pastor. The local Church of the Nazarene of which I am a member has several assistant pastors, one of which is a woman. Having served as the senior pastor of an interdenominational church, the New Testament teaching of the proper role of women in the Christian ministry was of interest to me. Therefore, I studied the issue in both the Scriptures and the history of the Church.

Priscilla is mentioned only in the Acts of the Apostles, and only in these passages,

Acts 18:1. After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth.
2. There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them,
18. After staying there for a considerable time, Paul said farewell to the believers and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had his hair cut, for he was under a vow.
26. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

There is no mention in these passages of either Priscilla or Aquila pastoring a church.

Phoebe is mentioned only in Romans, and only in one verse,

Romans 16:1. I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae,

This verse lends no support to the belief that it is proper for women to serve as pastors or bishops. However, we should also consider Romans 16:7,

7. Greet Andronicus and Junia, {Or [Junias]; other ancient authorities read [Julia]} my relatives {Or [compatriots]} who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

The Greek name Junias is a contraction of the name Junianus, a man’s name—not a woman’s name! Translators who use the name Junias are, therefore, understanding this individual to be a man. Conversely, translators who use the name Junia understand this individual to be a woman.

The ancient Greek manuscripts read in Romans 16:7, the only occurrence of the name in the New Testament, “Ιουνιαν.” Whether this is the name of a man or a woman depends upon how it is accented. Unfortunately, accent marks were not used in the ancient Greek manuscripts; therefore we do not know whether this individual was a man or a woman. From the 13th century to the middle of the 20th century, we find the scholarly interpreters of the name generally interpreting it as a masculine name. More modern scholars, however, generally interpret the name as being feminine. The ancient commentators also interpret the name as being feminine.

More importantly, however, Paul does not tell us what authority or what role this individual had in the Church. The Greek expression that Paul uses, επισημοιεντοιςαποστολοις, can be understood as meaning either “esteemed by the apostles” or “esteemed among the apostles.” Furthermore, Paul does not use the word “apostle” in a consistent manner. In writing of himself, he says that he was “called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God (1 Cor. 1:1); in writing of other “apostles,” he makes no mention of their appointment. Moreover, when writing of other contemporaneous “apostles,” Paul uses the term much more loosely, including persons who were mere messengers or emissaries.

How it came about that women began to preach and to have authority over Christian men in the Church is both an interesting and revealing story. The story begins with John Wesley and his belief that Christian theology should be based upon four things:

Scripture
Tradition
Experience
Reason

This concept is known as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Scripture is always of foremost importance, but according to Wesley it should never be studied apart from its historical interpretation and application. Belief in the Bible apart from the experience of it in one’s life does not constitute genuine faith—and the Christian experience must extend beyond one’s self into Christian service. Moreover, one’s beliefs must be capable of being defended in a rational manner based upon sound reasoning.

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral is the theological basis of the Methodist Church. The Salvation Army, the Church of the Nazarene, and the Pentecostal churches (of which the Assemblies of God is the largest denomination) are all outgrowths of the Methodist Church and its Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

Wesley never imagined that his Quadrilateral would be used to “justify” women serving as elders in the Church, but once personal Christian experience was allowed to have a voice in the formation of theology, it rapidly began to take dominance over Scripture. In 1859, Catherine Booth (a co-founder of the Salvation Army) wrote and published a pamphlet entitled, “Female Ministry: Woman’s Right to Preach the Gospel.” This pamphlet was written in defense of her new role model, the American Wesleyan revivalist Phoebe Palmer who, with her husband Walter, moved to the United Kingdom in 1859 where they lived and preached for several years—with Phoebe as the dominant partner. The precedent for women to preach the gospel in the United Kingdom was established, and the practice quickly spread throughout the churches in the Holiness Movement. When the holiness movement gave birth to the Pentecostal Movement, the practice quickly spread throughout the churches in that Movement—with the Wesleyan Quadrilateral as its justification (even though most Pentecostal Christians have probably never heard of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral by name). The practice of women preaching the gospel quickly grew into the practice of women pastoring churches, but much more slowly into the practice of women serving as bishops.

What is the proper role of women in the Christian ministry? Our denominations agree that it includes preaching and pastoring, but since my Baptist denomination and the Church of the Nazarene have no “bishops,” we have no women serving in that capacity.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are taken from the NRSV)

 

[circuitrider]

PrincetonGuy,

I'm at a disadvantage today since I'm on the road and only have access to one Greek manuscript. But Junia is most certainly a woman's name in the Greek New Testament. I don't see any evidence for your contention that it is a contraction.

Our understanding of what a Deacon is differs from Baptists. So that might not be a helpful argument against Phoebe. We do not consider deacons to be lay persons.

Pricilla and Aquilla did instruct Apollos, a man, in the faith. Pricilla's name is mentioned first which is likely a sign of priority of her leadership since the grammer does not require that word order.

Also, you are off on John Wesley. While all the concepts in the Quadrilateral are found in his teaching the term "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" was coined by Methodist historian Albert Outler. Wesley never heard of the term.

Wesley did indeed allow women to preach. He did not let them circuit ride alone because of not feeling women should travel alone. No, Wesley didn't conceive of women as Elders. But he also didn't conceive of any of his circuit riders being Elders until the need for American Methodism to break away from the Church of England and form the Methodist Episcopal Church.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

PrincetonGuy,


I'm at a disadvantage today since I'm on the road and only have access to one Greek manuscript. But Junia is most certainly a woman's name in the Greek New Testament. I don't see any evidence for your contention that it is a contraction.

The evidence is that the name ᾿Ιουνιαν is not found in any ancient Greek literature, and Paul frequently used contracted names. However, even if it is not a contraction, whether it is the name of a man or a woman depends upon the manner in which it is accented, and the accentuation differs in the ancient manuscripts that do accent it. Daniel Wallace writes,

If ᾿Ιουνιαν should have the circumflex over the ultima ( ᾿Ιουνιᾶν) then it is a man’s name; if it should have the acute accent over the penult ( ᾿Ιουνίαν) then it is a woman’s name….In the least, the data on whether ᾿Ιουνιαν is feminine or masculine are simply inadequate to make a decisive judgment, though what minimal data we do have suggests a feminine name. Although most modern translations regard the name as masculine, the data simply do not yield themselves in this direction. And although we are dealing with scanty material, it is always safest to base one’s views on actual evidence rather than mere opinion.https://bible.org/article/junia-among-apostles-double-identification-problem-romans-167​

Our understanding of what a Deacon is differs from Baptists. So that might not be a helpful argument against Phoebe. We do not consider deacons to be lay persons.

What matters to me is not the opinions of Baptists, Nazarenes, or Methodists, but the usage of the word διάκονος in the New Testament and other early Christian literature, and it is never used in that literature for an elder of the church—but always of a person in a subservient position. (BDAG, p. 230-231)

Pricilla and Aquilla did instruct Apollos, a man, in the faith. Pricilla's name is mentioned first which is likely a sign of priority of her leadership since the grammer does not require that word order.

Is instructing an individual man in private discourse equivalent to serving as the pastor of a church?

Also, you are off on John Wesley. While all the concepts in the Quadrilateral are found in his teaching the term "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" was coined by Methodist historian Albert Outler. Wesley never heard of the term.

I neither wrote nor suggested that Wesley used the term himself.

 

[circuitrider]

PrincetonGuy,

There are a lot of other Biblical passages to argue about here. (Including women preaching in the Corinthian church, the prophecy of Joel retold in Acts 2 etc.)

But I think you are missing the point here. This water under the bridge. This is like arguing with me if clergy can marry. Or if we can ordain gentiles. My Church has long decided that women are called of God to preach and lead churches. I agree with my Church.

I have worked with women pastors for years and found them to be just as called and just as good at what they do as any man. This is such a non-issue to United Methodists that 25% of our pastors are women and in Iowa where I serve it is nearer 40%.

In the Bible women were basically treated as property because that was the culture of the day. The Apostle Paul continued to support slavery likely because he couldn't imagine it any other way. Well there are times that we don't do what is in the Bible because we now know women are equal to men, we now know slavery is wrong even if the Bible appears in places to support slavery and the subjection of women.

We worship the God of the book and not the book.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

PrincetonGuy,

There are a lot of other Biblical passages to argue about here. (Including women preaching in the Corinthian church, the prophecy of Joel retold in Acts 2 etc.)

But I think you are missing the point here. This water under the bridge. This is like arguing with me if clergy can marry. Or if we can ordain gentiles. My Church has long decided that women are called of God to preach and lead churches. I agree with my Church.

I have worked with women pastors for years and found them to be just as called and just as good at what they do as any man. This is such a non-issue to United Methodists that 25% of our pastors are women and in Iowa where I serve it is nearer 40%.

In the Bible women were basically treated as property because that was the culture of the day. The Apostle Paul continued to support slavery likely because he couldn't imagine it any other way. Well there are times that we don't do what is in the Bible because we now know women are equal to men, we now know slavery is wrong even if the Bible appears in places to support slavery and the subjection of women.

We worship the God of the book and not the book.

I was not attempting to change your mind, but simply to show other readers of the thread that your statements about women in the Bible were inaccurate. I am very much aware of the water that has flowed under the bridge, and the water that is on its way.


Some years ago, a friend of mine, a United Methodist pastor, was fired by his bishop for preaching the gospel—because “it is irrelevant in today’s society.” He had been the pastor of that church for several years, during which the active membership had grown from fewer than 25 to over 1,100. The Bishop introduced the new pastor to the congregation, and then left. The congregation loved the pastor who was fired, so they refused to let the new pastor live in the parsonage—and they made it expressly clear to the new pastor that he was NOT welcome in their church! Church officials took the members to court, evicted them, and sold the church facility.

 

[circuitrider]

PrincetonGuy,

I've not responded because I've been out of town all weekend. My statements aren't inaccurate and you've given no grammatical or historic proof as to your idea that Paul treated names the way you are suggesting. I'd like some proof of that. I've got 17 hours of Biblical Greek under my belt and don't remember that being the case.

As to the above story about a UMC Bishop, I seriously doubt the truth of it. It is hearsay and libelous without names and circumstances. Bishops usually don't introduce any pastor to any congregation, Superintendents do that. And no Bishop I know of would say that they considered the gospel irrelevant. That is ludicrous on its face. They might consider fundamentalism irrelevant. Or some interpretation of a local church or pastor irrelevant. The whole story smacks of a very one sided interpretation of events. In a UMC local church the Bishop appoints the pastor. That is all there is to it. The local church has no right of refusal. They aren't Baptists. Local churches are not autonomous entities.

How about you quit violating forum rules and stop your attack on Methodist doctrine in this Wesleyan/Methodist forum?

 

[circuitrider]

By the way, according to several lexical resources I've consulted in BAG, an Analytical Lexicon, and others it Junia is as likely or more so to be a woman. The NRSV translated the name Junia. Some older manuscripts have the name as Julia. The KJV has Junia but the NIV - interestingly enough as a conservative translation - chooses Junias.

This could easily be one of those areas where women were involved in the early church but people who don't want to see women involved make sure they ignore the fact that the person is likely a woman.

So I'm not buying the "contraction" idea. It doesn't fit the Greek that I'm seeing.

 

[circuitrider]

Antony, the New Testament does support women in church leadership. PrincetonGuy is giving his own slant to his interpretation of the Greek to uphold his point. It is actually more likely by grammar to at Junia is a woman. He isn't allowing for it because it doesn't fit his doctrine.

The UMC believes women as pastors is Biblical and that is why we support it. It is not contrary to Church doctrine and Scripture though it is contrary to your church's doctrine. But that is immaterial since we are not Roman Catholic.

 

[pdudgeon]

just to put a small oar in here, like St Antony i was also raised in the Methodist church, and in a town settled by the Methodists in California, no less. Our church was high Methodist for many years which was not unusual back then. We had no female clergy and very few women leaders. In fact, my mother was the first female elected to the church board back in the 60's.
After a move from the West Coast to the East coast, the Methodist church was much the same in the '70's. No female clergy in the district until the early 90's.

 

[circuitrider]

pdudgeon, with so few women Methodist clergy in the 1960s there would be a lot of churches that wouldn't have had women pastors. But remember 1960 is now more than 50 years ago. A lot has changed in the last 50 years.

Also remember the UMC was founded in 1968 by a merger of the Evangelical United Brethren and the Methodist Church. The Brethren actually had women pastors earlier than the Methodists did I believe.

 

[pdudgeon]

pdudgeon, with so few women Methodist clergy in the 1960s there would be a lot of churches that wouldn't have had women pastors. But remember 1960 is now more than 50 years ago. A lot has changed in the last 50 years.

Also remember the UMC was founded in 1968 by a merger of the Evangelical United Brethren and the Methodist Church. The Brethren actually had women pastors earlier than the Methodists did I believe.

yes, i know that a lot has changed in the UMC.

 

[circuitrider]

yes, i know that a lot has changed in the UMC.

Thankfully.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

PrincetonGuy is giving his own slant to his interpretation of the Greek to uphold his point.

This is not true. I quoted a very highly respected teacher of New Testament Greek, Daniel B. Wallace, in which he wrote that the gender of Junia/Junias depends upon the accentuation of the name, but that the correct accentuation of the name is not known. I also quoted the only verse in the Bible where Junia/Junias is mentioned, and I did so in the NRVS that favors the position of the UMC in the text, but the other position in the margin. Furthermore, I wrote, “From the 13th century to the middle of the 20th century, we find the scholarly interpreters of the name generally interpreting it as a masculine name. More modern scholars, however, generally interpret the name as being feminine. The ancient commentators also interpret the name as being feminine.” Therefore, my posts have been honest and objective.

It is actually more likely by grammar to at Junia is a woman.

I agree that it is more likely that Junia/Junias was a woman rather than a man, but, since we do not know the correct accentuation of the name, the Greek text does not favor either view.

He isn't allowing for it because it doesn't fit his doctrine.

This is blatantly false!

 

[circuitrider]

Really PrincetonGuy? The BAG admits lexically it is a woman's name. the KJV and the NRSV translate it as Junia. Only recent conservative translations appear to translate it as Junias. You've said it is more likely to be a woman's name but that means it doesn't favor either argument. So when the evidence leans in the direction of supporting women in ministry that is neutral?

You can also note that newer translations such as the Common English Bible translate it Junia. It is pointed out in the New International Bible study notes that Junia is a common Latin woman's name.

Here is a quote from the notes in the Wesley study Bible. "Paul's actual ministry showed openness to women. He recognized a woman deacon, women coworkers, and a woman who was 'prominent among the apostles.'... He did not place women in lower positions than men."

I don't know who you are. But I do know who the Biblical scholars are who wrote the study notes for the NIB and the Wesley Study Bible. I do read Greek and it sure looks like a female name to me. I do know that United Methodists and other Methodists groups, the PCUSA, the ELCA, the Disciples of Christ, the American Baptists, the Nazarenes, the CBF, the Episcopal Church, and a quite a list of others I won't bother to list have women clergy and have had for many years.

You are just arguing with the wrong folks PrincetonGuy. We are convinced of the nature of our faith and of the call of God on all people regardless of gender. We are convinced that God meant it when he said, "your sons and daughters will prophesy." We believe God meant it when he said that there was no longer "Jew nor Greek, male or female."

Our entire theology as United Methodists points to equality of God's people in God's eyes. So basically you are asking us to stop being United Methodists.

You are making this argument more than 50 years too late. I'd suggest next you send in some Amish folk to argue that we should all plow our fields with horses.

 

[circuitrider]

BTW, if anyone wants to read the work of a Methodist scholar on issues such as women in ministry, let me suggest "The Moral Teachings of Paul: Selected Issues" 3rd Edition by Victor Paul Furnish. Before retirement he was a Professor at SMU.

 

[St Antony]

This is not true. I quoted a very highly respected teacher of New Testament Greek, Daniel B. Wallace, in which he wrote that the gender of Junia/Junias depends upon the accentuation of the name, but that the correct accentuation of the name is not known. I also quoted the only verse in the Bible where Junia/Junias is mentioned, and I did so in the NRVS that favors the position of the UMC in the text, but the other position in the margin. Furthermore, I wrote, “From the 13th century to the middle of the 20th century, we find the scholarly interpreters of the name generally interpreting it as a masculine name. More modern scholars, however, generally interpret the name as being feminine. The ancient commentators also interpret the name as being feminine.” Therefore, my posts have been honest and objective.

I agree that it is more likely that Junia/Junias was a woman rather than a man, but, since we do not know the correct accentuation of the name, the Greek text does not favor either view.

This is blatantly false!

This highlights the problem with churches following a Sola Scriptura doctrine. Analyzing small bits of Scripture to death trying to parse language and split hairs to support a theological position. If you look at hundreds of years of church tradition, however, which is also a valid statement of Christian belief, then this issue goes away. Priests and bishops in every Christian community, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Coptic and Anglican were men from time immemorial until now (except Anglicans where modernism has seeped into their church and influenced doctrine. For instance, at the Council of Nicaea in 325, where fundamental Christian Christology issues were settled, every bishop attending was male. This is the case on down through the ages. In fact, for a woman to hold a leadership position in any organization in this time period would have been unthinkable to the people of this time. If you look at the totality of the context of the Scriptures and early church, the question of female clerics really answers itself.