New Methodist Theology??

[St Antony]

As a person from a family born into the UMC and who attended my local UMC church until my mid 20s, I was pretty shocked when a friend posted this link from the 2012 Conference of the UMC on my Facebook page.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/...ll-embrace-of-all-women-in-church-and-society

It appears the UMC general conference has endorsed political philosophies as diverse as white privilege, pervasive misogyny as a major problem in society and acceptance of the full gay agenda, including gay marriage. A further perusing of the UMC site brought me to the "social principles" page where the progressive opinion on global warming was fully embraced, as well as, divorce, abortion under certain circumstances, encouraging people to limit fertility including through voluntary sterilization in order to promote sustainability, extensive rights for unions, a right to "a living wage", a right to immigrate and rights for "foreign workers", "restorative justice" rather than a justice system based on deterrence or retribution, and the rejection of the military draft as unbiblical.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/social-principles-social-creed

It's scary to me how much the Methodist Church of my youth has changed in such a short amount of time. Our ministers preached from the Bible and called on the congregation to be accountable for the way we lived. The UMC recognized sin and made a clear distinction between right and wrong. This line was based on Scripture and not on the tenets of some political agenda. Already when I left the church (my wife was Baptist and when we got married we decided to attend her church), the UMC was wavering on many of the hot button issues. Never did I imagine, however, that it would toss aside the Gospel and 2000 of Christian tradition and adopt what is essentially Marxist-Leninist/Progressive tripe.

 

[circuitrider]

St. Antony,

You've really lost me. The articles you quoted say nothing about the UMC officially supporting same sex marriage nor does it say anything about support for Marxism.

The first article is a support of women in ministry, something which we've supported for a long long time. (BTW, John Wesley himself let women preach.)

Can you point to something in one of the articles that is "Marxist?" I sure don't see it.

By the way, we've had the social principles for many many years even before the merger of the Methodist Church and the EUB. So unless you are over 100 years old, I'd be surprised that there are many principles in the Social Principles that have not been there since your childhood.

 

[St Antony]

Can you point to something in one of the articles that is "Marxist?" I sure don't see it.

Circuit Rider, The material between the first and second links I took from the UMC website on social principles and the social creed. There are numerous sections here and each of the teachings I listed in my big paragraph comes from one of these sections. Clink on the second link and read for yourself. This whole section of the UMC website reads like a political manifesto and is identical to something you can find on the Huffington Post, Daily Kos or any number of other leftwing websites.

I might add also that women preaching or in leadership roles in the church contradicts several passages of Scripture and was never permitted in any of the UMC churches in my area when I was still a member of the church. I am from the South so maybe we were just more conservative than other parts of the country and overseas UMC congregations.

 

[circuitrider]

St. Antony,

You may have never had a woman pastor. But I doubt it "wasn't allowed." It has been allowed throughout the UMC since its founding in 1968.

As to arguing with you about women in ministry, you may not be aware that this is a forum for Methodist and Wesleyan Christians. All Wesleyan denominations that I know of currently have women pastors.

If you want to argue with Methodists about women in ministry, according to the forum rules, this isn't a place to do it. The moderation staff comes down pretty hard on persons from other denominations jumping into the congregational forums and arguing against the theology of that forum.

As for me, I quit arguing with people quite some time back who don't believe that God loves everyone equally or don't believe that God calls both men and women equally to church leadership.

If you don't support women being leaders then you were right to find another Church other than the UMC because we support women's leadership without reserve. We ordain women as Elders and Deacons and we consecrate women as Bishops.

 

[circuitrider]

Just so you know Antony.

House Rules-
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

 

[Celticflower]

If women aren't supposed to preach why was the Good News of the resurrection entrusted first to a woman with the instructions to go and tell??

 

[circuitrider]

BTW, in 1956 General Conference voted women full clergy rights. And here is the Methodist Social Creed from 1908. (Yep, 1908.)

The Methodist Episcopal Church stands:

For equal rights and complete justice for all men in all stations of life.

For the principles of conciliation and arbitration in industrial dissensions.

For the protection of the worker from dangerous machinery, occupational diseases, injuries and mortality.

For the abolition of child labor.

For such regulation of the conditions of labor for women as shall safeguard the physical and moral health of the community.

For the suppression of the "sweating system."

For the gradual and reasonable reduction of the hours of labor to the lowest practical point, with work for all; and for that degree of leisure for all which is the condition of the highest human life.

For a release for [from] employment one day in seven.

For a living wage in every industry.

For the highest wage that each industry can afford, and for the most equitable division of the products of industry that can ultimately be devised.

For the recognition of the Golden Rule and the mind of Christ as the supreme law of society and the sure remedy for all social ills.

To the toilers of America and to those who by organized effort are seeking to lift the crushing burdens of the poor, and to reduce the hardships and uphold the dignity of labor, this Council sends the greeting of human brotherhood and the pledge of sympathy and of help in a cause which belongs to all who follow Christ.

My best guess is that Antony didn't know the teachings of his Church when he was in the Methodist Church.

 

[St Antony]

If women aren't supposed to preach why was the Good News of the resurrection entrusted first to a woman with the instructions to go and tell??

Isn't this issue clearly resolved by I Timothy 2:12? Priests, deacons and bishops have always been men in the Orthodox and Catholic traditions from the beginning to the present. Christ may have had any number of reasons for selecting a woman to first hear the Good News of the resurrection; we don't know beyond what the Scriptures tell us. This mystery doesn't allow Christians to directly contravene a clear mandate of Scripture that has been followed for almost 2,000 years by nearly everyone.

I attended many retreats, UMYF activities and other UMC events as a youth and never encountered a female pastor. If this has been the rule since 1908, it was not followed anywhere in my area. In fact, many in the congregations of the local UMC congregations in my area would have strenuously objected, I suspect, had a female pastor ever been appointed.

 

[St Antony]

BTW, in 1956 General Conference voted women full clergy rights. And here is the Methodist Social Creed from 1908. (Yep, 1908.)



My best guess is that Antony didn't know the teachings of his Church when he was in the Methodist Church.

This is very tame compared with the approved resolution of the 2012 General Conference I linked above. It appears the Conference moved a lot between 1956 and 2012. The 2012 document is much more ideological and parrots many of the talking points and policy goals of the extreme progressive left in America; a progressive left ideology grounded in Marxist-Leninist philosophy.

 

[CelticRebel]

Isn't this issue clearly resolved by I Timothy 2:12? Priests, deacons and bishops have always been men in the Orthodox and Catholic traditions from the beginning to the present. Christ may have had any number of reasons for selecting a woman to first hear the Good News of the resurrection; we don't know beyond what the Scriptures tell us. This mystery doesn't allow Christians to directly contravene a clear mandate of Scripture that has been followed for almost 2,000 years by nearly everyone.

I attended many retreats, UMYF activities and other UMC events as a youth and never encountered a female pastor. If this has been the rule since 1908, it was not followed anywhere in my area. In fact, many in the congregations of the local UMC congregations in my area would have strenuously objected, I suspect, had a female pastor ever been appointed.

The ancient Celtic Church ordained women.

 

[circuitrider]

Antony, again you are a Catholic in a Methodist forum arguing with Methodists about our theology.

But I'll point you to some clues. Look for Priscilla and Aquilla who co-pastored a church in the NT period. Also check out Phoebe a Deacon of the Church. As a start. There other other examples.

It was in 1956 that women got full clergy rights but there were women in Methodist ministry long before that.

I cannot help your local church experience. That fact that you personal never had a woman pastor doesn't mean they weren't appointed. The local church does not pick its own pastor. But also it has taken many years to get the number of women clergy up to 25%. If you were in a Methodist church 30, 40, or 50 years ago the percentage of women clergy would not be as great.

But don't confuse your experience in a local Methodist church in some southern town with the beliefs and teachings of the either the Methodist Church pre-1968 or the United Methodist Church since.

 

[circuitrider]

The ancient Celtic Church ordained women.

Indeed, and that speaks well of the Celtic Church. Some people believe that Brigid of Ireland was a Bishop.

 

[St Antony]

The ancient Celtic Church ordained women.

I lost track of the Celtic Church after they lost the arguments at the Synod of Whitby. Anyway, regardless, the Celtic Church was never large in numbers so it is still safe to say that "most" of the Church, most representing Catholics and the different Orthodox Patriarchies, did not ordain women. The Irish monks at Skellig, however, command my utmost respect for their extreme asceticism.

 

[circuitrider]

True Antony. But truth isn't decided by majority vote.

 

[circuitrider]

At any rate Antony, as I pointed out with our original 1908 Social Principles, Methodists have long been champions of ideas like living wages and fair treatment of employees. etc. That is far from new. It goes all the way back to the earliest Methodists.

John Wesley taught that there is no personal holiness without social holiness. For whatever reason that message wasn't brought down to the local level where you were.

 

[St Antony]

At any rate Antony, as I pointed out with our original 1908 Social Principles, Methodists have long been champions of ideas like living wages and fair treatment of employees. etc. That is far from new. It goes all the way back to the earliest Methodists.

John Wesley taught that there is no personal holiness without social holiness. For whatever reason that message wasn't brought down to the local level where you were.

Please don't think I bear ill will toward the Methodist Church. I don't and still have a lot of friends and even a few family members who attend and are active in the Methodist Church and its ministries. It just seems to me that over the past 20-30 years, the secular progressive left has come to town with a steamroller and flattened everything in its path. As a kid, there was essentially no observable difference between the Methodist Church and the First Baptist (SBC) Church down the street other than how we worshiped on Sunday (Obviously, we weren't aware of the theological issues at that age -- Calvinism vs. Free Will). Now, it seems every conservative I know has either left the church or is griping about one thing or another. Gay marriage, and the ability of the church to sanction it, is the hot button issue today I think. It seems no disagreement or opposition to feminism, multiculturalism, new mores on sexuality is allowed in the UMC now. The pastor isn't allowed to criticize sin any more, unless its to criticize some politically correct sin, like intolerance or materialism. It just seems to me the UMC has completely changed.

 

[circuitrider]

Antony,

The only thing I can figure is that you actually grew up in an unusually conservative United Methodist Church out of the mainstream of UMC theology.

So honestly it looked pretty bad, as a Catholic and not a Methodist, when you jumped in here critiquing what is normal UMC theology in a Wesleyan/Methodist forum.

When you jumped in here critiquing UMC support of women in ministry to most of UMCers that sounds like you yelling about us ordaining people with blue eyes. It is a non-issue for us in the UMC and has been for many many years.

We've had women clergy for many years. Our first female Bishop was consecrated 35 years ago. So I'm in my 50s and the first woman Bishop was consecrated when I was in High School.

I know a lot of conservative UMC pastors and none of them, that is none of them, are opposed to women in ministry. That isn't even considered a conservative viewpoint anymore. It would now be considered radically fundamentalist to be against women in ministry. And if you were a candidate for ordination right now you likely could not even be ordained if you opposed women being clergy. It is long established settled doctrine.

Your also stating that your church and the SBC church down the road were pretty much the same is telling too. As far as I can tell the UMC has always been more liberal than the SBC. And we have a lot more theological differences than Calvinism. So if you church was similar to an SBC church that is really a red flag. Your church was on the far right fringe of Methodism.

As to sexual issues, yes there is a lot of disagreement in the UMC as to how we should deal with those issues. But I sure don't know any UMC pastors who don't preach against sin. But maybe we have a different idea about what the most serious sins are.

Conservative Christians tend to think personal moral issues (smoking, drinking, sexual issues) are the most important. I tend to think the fact that we are letting the poor starve, that we spend billions and billions on senseless wars, and that we have failed to do what Jesus did, support the marginalized, are far greater sins. Jesus in his "sheep and goats" sermon made not taking care of the needy one of the few reasons for coming under judgement in the New Testament.

So when you road in here with conservative Catholic guns a blazing it was pretty hard for me not to just tell you off. ;-)

 

[Dave-W]

Circuitrider, I have a question for you. My dad was ordained in the Wesleyan Methodist denom circa 1950. He was taught and believed to his death that women were to be slaves to all men, never speaking up and there at his (or any male's) beck and call.

I do know that currently the Wesleyan denom ordains women. But was that the teaching back in the 40s and 50s?

 

[St Antony]

Antony, So when you road in here with conservative Catholic guns a blazing it was pretty hard for me not to just tell you off. ;-)

You certainly wouldn't have been the first to do that )

 

[circuitrider]

Circuitrider, I have a question for you. My dad was ordained in the Wesleyan Methodist denom circa 1950. He was taught and believed to his death that women were to be slaves to all men, never speaking up and there at his (or any male's) beck and call.

I do know that currently the Wesleyan denom ordains women. But was that the teaching back in the 40s and 50s?

Dave, It is my understanding that the Wesleyan Church has ordained women for over 140 years. So It would appear to me that you Dad was out of step with that theology though I do think the Wesleyan Church tends to be more traditional about men's and women's roles than the UMC.

Methodists have ordained women long before the 1950s but full clergy rights in all things didn't happen until that time unfortunately.