New Jerusalem?

FIRESTORM314 · Mar 5, 2018

The Holy of Holy's was square. The building symbolises everyone living in the city is in the immediate presence of God
Straightness symbolises holiness - ie ironing out the curves, not bent or warped.

A literal building of that size would probably cause the earths crust to sink into the liquid mantle. A ping pong ball being flattened springs to mind

DavidPT · Mar 5, 2018

Quasar92 said:
The New Jerusalem is not documented as existing during the present heaven and earth - because they are going to be destroyed/pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and Rev.21:1. But rather, it will not have all the rooms prepared in it by Jesus [as recorded in Jn.14:2-3], until all believers beside those from the raptured Church have been accounted for. Such as the tribulation martyrs of Rev.20:4 and 6 and everyone who will be saved during Jesus 1,000 year reign on the earth, as recorded in Rev.20:6.

Quasar92

I agree that the NJ won't be upon the old earth. I'm not even suggesting that.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So when do you see all of this meaning? Isn't verse 36 referring to verse 34 and 35? Doesn't verse 35 indicate Heaven and earth shall pass away, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, according to verse 36?

Compare verse 35 with Revelation 21:1.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Heaven and earth shall pass away----And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

If according to Matthew 24:35, heaven and earth shall pass away, and that that is meaning verse 36, what becomes of the heaven and earth in the meantime if there is not a new heavens and a new earth until a thousand plus years later?

But if Matthew 24:35 is meaning a thousand plus years later after the fulfillment of verse 36, why would that verse be included in a context having to do with the 2nd coming? That's pretty much how some Partial Preterists treat the above text in Matthew 24:34-36. They have verse 34 meaning the first century, and verse 36 meaning the 2nd coming. Why on earth would there be context concerning the first century included in context having to do with the 2nd coming? There wouldn't be. The same would be true of verse 35 per the view who sees Revelation 21:1 meaning a thousand plus years after the 2nd coming. How can that be so if Matthew 24:35 is included within 2nd coming context?

DavidPT · Mar 5, 2018

Dave Watchman said:
It can't.

It can't arrive until after the thousand years are finished:

"Even Jesus: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of his holy prophets which have been since the world began.

Heaven must recieve Him until the time comes to restore ALL THINGS.

When does the time come to "restore all things"?

All the way down in Rev 21.5, after the thousand years are finished:

"And he who was seated on the throne said,
“Behold, I am making all things new.”
Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

This is why Jesus went to prepare a place for us. So that He could come back here, and take us to where He is. The thing that we call the "second coming", is really a second "visitation".

Don't believe it?

"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

Those who pierced Him won't live again until after the thousand years are finished. Every "eye", will not be opened again until AFTER the thousand years are finished when:

"The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years shall have been completed, and the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

I refer you to post #122 then.

Quasar92 · Mar 5, 2018

FYI, The Scriptures are crystal clear in Rev.211-3, New Jerusalem will arrive by God, from the New heaven, and not before. The present heaven and earth is decreed be destroyed and to pass way, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and Rev.21:1. The Father's "house," the New Jerusalem, Jesus alluded to in Jn.14:2-3, will not be ready for occupancy until the very last person to believe in Jesus has been saved.

Your response to my previous remarks, the New Jerusalem will not appear ON EARTH until God provides us with a new heaven and earth, renders your remark, "present tense," from Gal.4:26, completely out of whacj.

Quasar92

FIRESTORM314 · Mar 5, 2018

Stones speak of something long lasting, permanent, dependable.

All fitting together nicely and making up one complete structure would possibly indicate unity - I've not seen much of that yet

Talking of enlarging your tent... WOW !
The size of that building speaks volumes.

Thank you Jesus

Quasar92 · Mar 5, 2018

DavidPT said:
I agree that the NJ won't be upon the old earth. I'm not even suggesting that.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So when do you see all of this meaning? Isn't verse 36 referring to verse 34 and 35? Doesn't verse 35 indicate Heaven and earth shall pass away, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, according to verse 36?

Compare verse 35 with Revelation 21:1.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Heaven and earth shall pass away----And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

If according to Matthew 24:35, heaven and earth shall pass away, and that that is meaning verse 36, what becomes of the heaven and earth in the meantime if there is not a new heavens and a new earth until a thousand plus years later?

But if Matthew 24:35 is meaning a thousand plus years later after the fulfillment of verse 36, why would that verse be included in a context having to do with the 2nd coming? That's pretty much how some Partial Preterists treat the above text in Matthew 24:34-36. They have verse 34 meaning the first century, and verse 36 meaning the 2nd coming. Why on earth would there be context concerning the first century included in context having to do with the 2nd coming? There wouldn't be. The same would be true of verse 35 per the view who sees Revelation 21:1 meaning a thousand plus years after the 2nd coming. How can that be so if Matthew 24:35 is included within 2nd coming context?

Mt.24:34 specifically refers to what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse prophecy; that it is the generation present at the time it is being fulfilled. It has nothing at all to do with the generation present at the time of those sayings. The passage is an amplification of Dan.9:27, and later on, of Rev.5.

Quasar92

DavidPT · Mar 5, 2018

Quasar92 said:
Mt.24:34 specifically refers to what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse prophecy; that it is the generation present at the time it is being fulfilled. It has nothing at all to do with the generation present at the time of those sayings. The passage is an amplification of Dan.9:27, and later on, of Rev.5.

Quasar92

Yet I'm not arguing that is has anything to do with the generation present at the time of those sayings. So we are in full agreement there. Still your post fails to address anything I submitted in the post you were addressing. This thread is about the timing of the NJ. That's what I was attempting to address in the post you are addressing. Matthew 24:35 says what it says, and that it says it within second coming context.

Quasar92 · Mar 5, 2018

DavidPT said:
Yet I'm not arguing that is has anything to do with the generation present at the time of those sayings. So we are in full agreement there. Still your post fails to address anything I submitted in the post you were addressing. This thread is about the timing of the NJ. That's what I was attempting to address in the post you are addressing. Matthew 24:35 says what it says, and that it says it within second coming context.

If you read my previous post, you will see, verse 34 will take place at or up to seven years prior to Jesus second coming.

Quasar92

seventysevens · Mar 5, 2018

Jesus spoke of his fathers house several times during his earthly ministry as reference as a temple being his fathers house- scriptures speak vividly of a glorious temple throne that is in heaven

I have seen several views on the topic of NJ that will someday come down out of heaven , some say it is after the 1000 years , some say that it is during that time and will reside some miles up in the sky above the earth .
Time will tell but I see no reason why it could not be occupied by those in heaven now as they live in heaven now - the idea to say that heaven is not the fathers house does not fit logic ,

To prepare a place does not have to mean to build it as God simply speaks and it exists ,
The Lord lives in his fathers house which is his house and people in heaven can certainly be part of that , perhaps it will not reach full capacity until after the 1000, perhaps it is because only sinless people with spiritual bodies can inhabit it , so it cannot be on earth that has sin in it , maybe that is why it would remain elevated up from the earth or need a new earth to land on , OT scripture says that the earth would be destroyed by the flood - yet it is still the same earth - fire is a method of cleansing and could be what scripture refers to in the restoration of all things
Just as God can heal peoples body with just speaking a word - he can heal the earth the same way, there may well be a new physical earth but there is no reason to say that is the only possibility for a new earth

DavidPT · Mar 5, 2018

Quasar92 said:
If you read my previous post, you will see, verse 34 will take place at or up to seven years prior to Jesus second coming.

Quasar92

Since I'm not Pretrib I for sure can't agree with that then.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you or something, which is possible that may be the case, your argument appears to be as unsound as the some Partial Preterists because that verse indicates this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. How can all these things be fulfilled 7 years before the 2nd coming? That would imply there is nothing left to be fulfilled once the church is raptured 7 years prior to the 2nd coming.

claninja · Mar 5, 2018

Markwsmith2020 said:
When does the new or heavenly Jerusalem arrive?

A better question is what is the heavenly New/Heavenly Jerusalem.

It is the bride of Christ
Revelation 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

It is built on the foundation of the apostles.
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:19-20 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

It is where God dwells with his people
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Ephesians 2:22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Quasar92 · Mar 5, 2018

seventysevens said:
Jesus spoke of his fathers house several times during his earthly ministry as reference as a temple being his fathers house- scriptures speak vividly of a glorious temple throne that is in heaven

I have seen several views on the topic of NJ that will someday come down out of heaven , some say it is after the 1000 years , some say that it is during that time and will reside some miles up in the sky above the earth .
Time will tell but I see no reason why it could not be occupied by those in heaven now as they live in heaven now - the idea to say that heaven is not the fathers house does not fit logic ,

To prepare a place does not have to mean to build it as God simply speaks and it exists ,
The Lord lives in his fathers house which is his house and people in heaven can certainly be part of that , perhaps it will not reach full capacity until after the 1000, perhaps it is because only sinless people with spiritual bodies can inhabit it , so it cannot be on earth that has sin in it , maybe that is why it would remain elevated up from the earth or need a new earth to land on , OT scripture says that the earth would be destroyed by the flood - yet it is still the same earth - fire is a method of cleansing and could be what scripture refers to in the restoration of all things
Just as God can heal peoples body with just speaking a word - he can heal the earth the same way, there may well be a new physical earth but there is no reason to say that is the only possibility for a new earth

The order of end time events pertaining to the believer:

1 He/She dies physically.

2. The Lord brings our spirit/soult o heaven with Him, immediately following, according to 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7.

3. When Jesus returns for His Church, all those who previously died in Him, will return with Him when He comes, according to 1 Thess.4:14 and 16.

4. All believers left on earth alive at His coming, will be caught up together, with all those who previously died in Him, to meet Jesus in the air, according to 1 Thess.4:17.

5. From where He will take all believers to our Father in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

6. The marriage of the Bride/Church [All believers] to the Lamb/Jesus will take place in heaven, according to Rev.19:7-8.

7. Jesus will return to the earth in His second coming with all believers, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, according to Rev.19:14.

7. All believers will reign with Christ for 1,000 years, including the tribulation martyrs/saints from the first resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6.

8. The GWTJ will take place after Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth is over. All those whose names are not in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. All those whose names are added into the book of life during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, will join all other believers.

9. The present heaven and earth will pass way and God will provide a new heaven and earth. The New Jerusalem will come down from God, in heaven, with mansions/rooms/dwelling places for every believer, according to Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Mar 6, 2018

Quasar92 said:
5. From where He will take all believers to our Father in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the statement above to be in error.
They prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on the "day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
We find the same language in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16, which are clearly Second Coming passages.

There is no trip back to heaven for a period of 7 years in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 or 5.

The Father's House is coming here on that day.

.

Quasar92 · Mar 6, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the statement above to be in error.
They prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on the "day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
We find the same language in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16, which are clearly Second Coming passages.

There is no trip back to heaven for a period of 7 years in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 or 5.

The Father's House is coming here on that day.

.

FYI, 1 Thess.5 are remaks by Paul, revealing the difference between the believer and the non-believer. Your above remarks are what is categorically false! Review the following proof:

Jn.14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jn.14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

A DIRECT REFERENCE BY PAUL, TO JESUS ABOVE PROPHECY:

1 Thes.4:15 "According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."

JESUS USED JOHN TO REPRESENT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. CONFIRMING 2 THESS.2:3 AND 7-8:

Rev.4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

THE BIBLICAL TIMING OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word,in the 16th century, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

FROM THE ABOVE SCRIPTURAL FACTS, IT IS CLEAR, THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH WILL TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS/THE ANTICHRIST. IS REVEALED, WHO WILL TRIGGER THE DAY OF THE LORD, THE TRIBULATION.

Quasar92

jgr · Mar 6, 2018

Quasar92 said:
FYI, 1 Thess.5 are remaks by Paul, revealing the difference between the believer and the non-believer. Your above remarks are what is categorically false! Review the following proof:

Jn.14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jn.14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

A DIRECT REFERENCE BY PAUL, TO JESUS ABOVE PROPHECY:

1 Thes.4:15 "According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."

JESUS USED JOHN TO REPRESENT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. CONFIRMING 2 THESS.2:3 AND 7-8:

Rev.4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

THE BIBLICAL TIMING OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word,in the 16th century, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

FROM THE ABOVE SCRIPTURAL FACTS, IT IS CLEAR, THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH WILL TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS/THE ANTICHRIST. IS REVEALED, WHO WILL TRIGGER THE DAY OF THE LORD, THE TRIBULATION.

Quasar92

Debunked innumerable times.

If Paul meant "rapture" in 2 Thess. 2:3, why didn't he use the Greek "harpazo" rather than "apostasia"?

Simple. Because he meant "apostasy".

seventysevens · Mar 6, 2018

jgr said:
If Paul meant "rapture" in 2 Thess. 2:3, why didn't he use the Greek "harpazo" rather than "apostasia"?

Simple. Because he meant "apostasy".

apostasy as you see it is not going to happen , there is a much growing revival taking place in countries that have been prevented from having a Holy Bible
harpazo is not used in Matt 24 or Luke or Mark but still people insist that is a rapture but it is a gathering not a rapture

BABerean2 · Mar 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
apostasy as you see it is not going to happen

We are now in the middle of it, based on the ecumenical movement and it's all religions lead to heaven movement.

Then we have Jesuit Futurism, which has many Christians so confused that they have never even heard of the New Covenant.

We also have the hypergrace movement which claims that you can do as you please once you come to faith in Christ.

None of this would be accepted by the New Testament Church, of the first century.

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jgr · Mar 6, 2018

seventysevens said:
apostasy as you see it is not going to happen , there is a much growing revival taking place in countries that have been prevented from having a Holy Bible
harpazo is not used in Matt 24 or Luke or Mark but still people insist that is a rapture but it is a gathering not a rapture

The dispensational claim is that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers to the rapture. Paul used "harpazo" there. There is no reason why he would not have used "harpazo" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, if he also meant rapture there.

Apostasy began subsequent to Paul's warning, with the emergence of the apostate Roman papacy.

seventysevens · Mar 6, 2018

BABerean2 said:
We are now in the middle of it, based on the ecumenical movement and it's all religions lead to heaven movement.

Well it could be if we consider compromising original scripture , but the RCC has done that for generations , and recently joining Chrislam ,
For a long time it was said that the apostasy would be Christians rejecting Jesus and turning away from the church as in how some just leave the faith and become a person that no longer believes in God , but there is something wrong happening in churches today - refusing to teach bible prophecy , a big reduction of alter calls and inviting people to the alter for prayer , a more self help type teaching and focus on raising money , not nearly as much teachings of Jesus as it used to be

seventysevens · Mar 6, 2018

jgr said:
The dispensational claim is that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers to the rapture. Paul used "harpazo" there. There is no reason why he would not have used "harpazo" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, if he also meant rapture there.

Apostasy began subsequent to Paul's warning, with the emergence of the apostate Roman papacy.

Harpazo literally defined is a snatching away suddenly with a violent force ,,
apostasia means to "stand away" or "departure" in that context it may be either way , and it may mean departure of the church or departure of the Holy Spirit , but it could mean a departure of the " become born-again ' type teaching that Jesus taught , that churches seem to not be teaching this as they should

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