New Jerusalem?

Markwsmith2020 said:

When does the new or heavenly Jerusalem arrive?

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Obviously the New Jerusalem arrives after the completion of the New Heavens and New Earth. Hence (New).

The New Jerusalem will come out of Heaven and down to us 1000 years after the return of the LORD Jesus Christ.. So since Jesus has not yet returned we can say that the New Jerusalem will not be showing up any time soon..

BABerean2 said:

The Old Covenant Age ended at Calvary with the words "It is finished.", found in John 19:30.
Shortly after that God ripped the temple veil in half showing that the Old Covenant system was no longer needed.

At the Last Supper Christ announced that He would fulfill the New Covenant in His Blood. (Matthew 26:28) It did not wait until 70 AD.

In Galatians chapter 4, Paul compelled the Galatian church to "cast out" the covenant of "bondage", because it had already become "obsolete".

We find in Hebrews 10:16-18 that the New Covenant had already come into effect, because there was no more sacrifice for sin.
This passage destroys your doctrine, which claims both systems were in effect until the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

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Technically that is true however that did not stop them from calling the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem the end of that age. Nor did it stop many an old testament prophet. Why? Because the destruction of the city and the the Temple were one of the many signs of the coming of the Messiah, (as a baby in a manger.) As it says in Daniel 9 24. Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (There is your technical end of the Old Covenant as you stated.) 25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troubled times. 26. And after sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, (There is that technical end of the OC again) but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come and shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end of it shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. (And there is the end of that age.) 27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (There is the technical end of the OC once more) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Then there is the end of that age once more.) As I said. As a prophecy, one of the many signs that Jesus was indeed the messiah. Signs like born to a virgin, born in Bethlehem, crucified, raised from the dead would be the destruction of the city and temple. So no, your grasping at straws trying to differentiate between a technical end of the Old Covenant and the end of the Old Covenant age when both things happened in one generation.. You haven't "destroyed" my doctrine nor do you have the slightest inclination as to what my doctrine is.

But we are not discussing this. We are discussing prophecies about the New Jerusalem and you are having a great deal of difficulty thinking outside of little boxes you've made for yourself. Did you read the link? What say you about it? Can you say as prophecy that all those things in those three chapters are not taking place in the world with a vengeance? Yes I know to admit that means all of a sudden you are dealing with clear scripture that does not fit in one of your boxes. So that is what you naturally go back to. One of your boxes. That is where you are comfortable. You have a box called preterism. Well I have news for you. I am not a preterist. You simply do not a have a box to fit me inside of. I never said all end time prophecy was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem. What I said was the prophecy about the end of the Old Covenant age were fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem. There is a whole different body of end time prophecy about the age of the four gentile empires and that end which did not occur until the 4th empire ended, in 1453 AD. Then I say there is an even greater body of prophecy than both of those bodies of end time prophecy combined. Prophecies about the age that would follow. An age of promise. An age were all the earthly promises of God made to a thousand generations of saints that went unfulfilled in all their generations would begin to come to pass in nations that meet the conditions. Which for the fist time in all of human history for the last few centuries have indeed been coming to pass.

Those three chapters in that link that again I implore you to read are just three of well over a hundred just like it. Take a chance. be a little curious. Honestly read it and tell me they have not been coming to pass.
The Bride of Christ

Daniel Martinovich said:

We are discussing prophecies about the New Jerusalem and you are having a great deal of difficulty thinking outside of little boxes you've made for yourself.

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Those "little boxes" come from the Bible and scientific facts.
I am bound to stay within their limits.

What you are claiming does not.

During my teaching career astronomy was part of our curriculum.
I was also a member of the local astronomy club for many years.

Each day the sun converts part of its Hydrogen fuel into Helium, through the process of nuclear fusion.
If things continue as they are now, eventually the sun will swell into a Red Giant star.
If this occurs, the surface of the earth would melt.
So much for us now being in the eternal New Heavens and New Earth.

This scientific fact is one of those "little boxes", which show your doctrine to be in error.

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BABerean2 said:

Those "little boxes" come from the Bible and scientific facts.
I am bound to stay within their limits.

What you are claiming does not.

During my teaching career astronomy was part of our curriculum.
I was also a member of the local astronomy club for many years.

Each day the sun converts part of its Hydrogen fuel into Helium, through the process of nuclear fusion.
If things continue as they are now, eventually the sun will swell into a Red Giant star.
If this occurs, the surface of the earth would melt.
So much for us now being in the eternal New Heavens and New Earth.

This scientific fact is one of those "little boxes", which show your doctrine to be in error.

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Again, trying to put me in one of your little boxes. I did not say anything about the world never ending. I simply will not fit in one of your little boxes. You cannot discern me.

My issue is the 100+ chapters of Bible prophecy about this present age that include the 3 dozen chapters of prophecy about the New Jerusalem which is supposed to be the subject we are talking about. So....how about those 3 chapters. What part of them are not coming to pass right now as we speak?
The Bride of Christ

Daniel Martinovich said:

What part of them are not coming to pass right now as we speak?

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1Co 15:50　 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.　
1Co 15:51　 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,　
1Co 15:52　 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.　
1Co 15:53　 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.　
1Co 15:54　 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.　
1Co 15:55　 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?　
1Co 15:56　 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.　
1Co 15:57　 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.　

1Co 15:58　 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.　



Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　
Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　
Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　

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BABerean2 said:

1Co 15:50　 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.　
1Co 15:51　 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,　
1Co 15:52　 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.　
1Co 15:53　 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.　
1Co 15:54　 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.　
1Co 15:55　 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?　
1Co 15:56　 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.　
1Co 15:57　 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.　

1Co 15:58　 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.　



Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　
Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　
Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　

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Well your just being dishonest with me and yourself. Your running back to your little boxes to present them as proof that your little boxes are truth and refusing to examine some chapters of scripture about the New Jerusalem that paint it in a different light than than your little boxes. If you want to argue about everything end times then there are a dozen threads you can do it on. I only posted here because the New Jerusalem is one of the easiest subjects to breach because there is such an abundance of prophecy about it. You choose to ignore it so I'll just have to ignore you.
The New Jerusalem

Daniel Martinovich said:

Well your just being dishonest with me and yourself.

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I presented the text which proves your doctrine to be in error, without any comment from me in the last post, and now you say I am being dishonest.

Luk_6:42　 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.


All false doctrines are exposed by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

.

/nvm

/nvm

/nvm

Markwsmith2020 said:

When does the new or heavenly Jerusalem arrive?

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The new Jerusalem is the city of Jerusalem in its current location in the eternal utopian new heavens and new earth.

I think the 144,000 will live there as described in the final chapters of Ezekiel, having tribes and a temple and ruled by King David. These 144,000 will want to be Jewish for all of eternity and God will grant them the desires of their heart, just as he will do for everyone. I wish to play classical guitar and I have no doubt God will grant me that joy.

jesus316 said:

I think the 144,000 will live there as described in the final chapters of Ezekiel, having tribes and a temple and ruled by King David. These 144,000 will want to be Jewish for all of eternity and God will grant them the desires of their heart, just as he will do for everyone.

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jesus316 said:

The new Jerusalem is the city of Jerusalem in its current location in the eternal utopian new heavens and new earth.

I think the 144,000 will live there as described in the final chapters of Ezekiel, having tribes and a temple and ruled by King David. These 144,000 will want to be Jewish for all of eternity and God will grant them the desires of their heart, just as he will do for everyone. I wish to play classical guitar and I have no doubt God will grant me that joy.

Click to expand...

Any of the 144,000 sex-crazed Jewish males racing about trying to keep their minds on world evangelism wouldn't have much time for classical guitar or anything else.

But it's much better than that.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number can be depicted as 12, representing faithful OT saints, one from each of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing the 12 apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20). The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Thus we have...:

• 12 depicting the OT saints within the Church
• 12 depicting the NT saints within the Church
• 1000 depicting a large quantity (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11)

...when multiplied together, yielding 144,000 representing the Church through the ages in its fullness.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000

jgr said:

Any of the 144,000 sex-crazed Jewish males racing about trying to keep their minds on world evangelism wouldn't have much time for classical guitar or anything else.

But it's much better than that.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number can be depicted as 12, representing faithful OT saints, one from each of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing the 12 apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20). The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Thus we have...:

• 12 depicting the OT saints within the Church
• 12 depicting the NT saints within the Church
• 1000 depicting a large quantity (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11)

...when multiplied together, yielding 144,000 representing the Church through the ages in its fullness.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000

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The 144,000 Israelite evangelists have nothing whatever to do with the Church.

Who/what are the 144,000 Israelites ?

According to the Bible, Jesus, Paul and John revealed, those of us who belong to His Church, will be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the antichrist is revealed, as recorded in 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. Who triggers the seven year tribulation/70th Week of Daniel, God decreed Israel to go through in Dan.9:27.

[In connection with the Church = Jn.14:1-4 and 28; 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8]. In connection with Israel = Jer.30:7 and Dan.9:27, where the person who 'confirms a covenant/treaty/agreement with Israel is the antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in that vs, triggers the 70th and final 'Week,'/seven year tribulation/Day of the Lord. Seen also in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7- 8].

Jesus said He has two sheep folds, Israel whom He was addressing, and the "other one He must also bring," the Church, according to Jn.10:16. He prophecied that they will become one fold with one Shepherd. He also said many who are first will be last [Israel] and many who are last will be first [The Church] in Mt.19:30. This will be fullfilled after the first resurrection af all the tribulation saints, in Rev.20:4-6, and then rule with Christ for 1,000 years, in Rev.4 and 6.

He meant His Church will be CAUGHT UP to be with Him before the tribulation, according to 1 Thes.4:16-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8] and that Israel will go through the tribulation [Dan.9:27]. When Israel finally recognizes Jesus as their Messiah, according to Zech.12:10 , they will then come into the same sheep fold with the Church and the two will become one fold, with Jesus being the one Shepherd, when He establishes His Millennial kingdom here on earth according to Rev.20:6.

When the Church is Caught Up to be with the Lord in heaven, the antichrist is revealed and the tribulation begins, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4, 7-8; Dan.9:27 and Rev.6:2].

The overview of the tribulation, begins with the first of the four riders, on the white horse, who is the antichrist, in the first of seven seals; after the six seals, before the seventh seal that contains the seven trumpet judgements begins in Rev.; God will send 144,000 consisting of 12,000 Israelites from each of twelve of their tribes, that He "redeems from the earth" according to Rev.14:3. Sealing them, and they become converted believers in Jesus Christ who will take the place of the Raptured Church, to preach the Eternal Gospel in their absence, to all those left on the earth, according to Rev.7:1-8. Whom God will send here from heaven [as He will His two witnesses of Rev.11].

They were the righteous ones in OT Sheol when Jesus preached the gospel to them, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. Then when He ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9, He took all the righteous ones who came from OT Sheol with Him, as seen in Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy in Ps.68:18. [During OT times, the spirits of the righteous dead went to Sheol, as did the wicked, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin, according to Heb.10:3-4, Lk.16:19-23 and in Ps.49:14-15, until Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, amplified by Paul in Rom.3:25-26.

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic [preview] view of the Great Multitude seen in heaven, recorded in Rev.7:9-17, who represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, and who are also the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6. They are the tribulation saints and are the ones who will be left behind, when the Church is raptured, and do not belong to the Church, until after the 144,000 bring them to the Lord. The 144,000 do not belong to the Church or they would be raptured with the Church before the tribulation begins.

When their work is finished, the 144,000 will be translated, and return to heaven, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God will commission an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.

Therefore, the 144,000 are all converted Israelites who take the place of the Raptured Church to preach the Gospel to all those who will be left behind when Jesus comes to take His Church with Him to our Father in heaven, as previously address above, documented in Jn.14:2-4 and 28; 1Thes.4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8.


Quasar92

Quasar92 said:

The 144,000 Israelite evangelists have nothing whatever to do with the Church.

Who/what are the 144,000 Israelites ?

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Rev 14:4　 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.　


2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.　



Since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, there is only one choice of who they are.

They are members of the New Covenant Church, which is also found in Hebrews 12:22-24 and James 1:1-3.

Jas 1:1　 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.　
Jas 1:2　 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;　
Jas 1:3　 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.　

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BABerean2 said:

Rev 14:4　 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.　


2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.　



Since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, there is only one choice of who they are.

They are members of the New Covenant Church, which is also found in Hebrews 12:22-24 and James 1:1-3.

Jas 1:1　 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.　
Jas 1:2　 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;　
Jas 1:3　 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.　

.

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If the 144,000 Israeli evangelists belonged to the Church, they would be raptured with the Church before the tribulation begins. They are recorded as being in the tribulation, just before the seventh seal. Who will be placed there by God, as He will the two witnesses of Rev. 11, in the absence of the departed Church.

My post #55 refutes you..


Quasar02

Quasar92 said:

If the 144,000 Israeli evangelists belonged to the Church, they would be raptured with the Church before the tribulation begins. They are recorded as being in the tribulation, just before the seventh seal. Who will be placed there by God, as He will the two witnesses of Rev. 11, in the absence of the departed Church.

My post #55 refutes you..

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Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.　


A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

There is no pretrib rapture of the Church.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5 on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.


The claim that the Church and Israel are not connected falls apart in the letter below, written by the half-brother of Christ.

Jas 1:1　 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.　
Jas 1:2　 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;　

Jas 1:3　 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.　

.

BABerean2 said:

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.　


A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

There is no pretrib rapture of the Church.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5 on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.


The claim that the Church and Israel are not connected falls apart in the letter below, written by the half-brother of Christ.

Jas 1:1　 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.　
Jas 1:2　 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;　

Jas 1:3　 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.　

.

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My posts #55 and #57 both refute you. When are you going to open your eyes to the Scriptural truth and stop the perpetual propagation of false prophecy?

God will place the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in Rev.7:1-8, on earth, as He will the two witnesses of Rev.11, in the absence of the departed/raptured Church. They are the ones who bring the great multitude to the Lord, who were all a part of those who will be left behind as non-believers, when the Church is raptured, in 1 Thess.4:16-17. They are called the tribulation martyrs/saints who are recorded again in Rev.20:4 and 6. They DO NOT belong to the raptured Church. Nor do the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, or they would have all been raptured with the Church, as addressed in the OP.

You continue to make the statement, there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church, in spite of being shown the Scriptures that refute you, time after time. When are you going to stop making those kind of statements when you have been proven to be wrong? As documented in the following:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf



Quasar92

Quasar92 said:

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

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You really should quit wasting server space with this bunkum.