New Interpretation of the bible

messianist · Jan 5, 2022

Daniel Marsh said:
So, you are too chicken to prove your case for what you believe by comparing your teachings with those whom the early Apostles taught? That speaks volumes about your false teachings that leads to eternal punishment.

Matthew 25:46
Easy-to-Read Version
46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

The Greek Grammar is plain both uses of the word eternal is the same grammar in the same sentence. If you limit one, you have called Jesus a liar and thus blasphemed the Holy Spirit too.

Chicken shows your mentality your a real winner you are.

messianist · Jan 5, 2022

SkyWriting said:
Which evident am I contradicting?

Everything you say

messianist · Jan 5, 2022

Daniel Marsh said:
My laughing and falling out of my chair is about the NWT being correct.

Your laughter is you failing to understand

klutedavid · Jan 5, 2022

BeingThere said:
This is how a universal Church can exist outside the confines of human religious structure. As much as people believe the Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church may be the one true church, Jesus meant something far greater and more God-like, aiming at true universalism outside human organization. God is Love, is Light, and most have not seen or heard what he has in store for us. The gospel penetrates far deeper than ritual, doctrine and habit. It means Life Itself.

We were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

What is that image that Jesus presented to us?

Ephesians 1:15
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints.

Ephesians 3:17
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love.

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

messianist · Jan 5, 2022

Daniel Marsh said:
Friend, are you a Jehovah's Witness or Latter day saint? You seems uninformed about the science of translating the Bible.

Friend??

so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2022

Daniel Marsh said:
Move your mouse over the quote, it is ASV

I think you misunderstood, my friend. He appeared to quote Deuteronomy 17:17, but he either quoted a version I did not recognize or he created his own translation because he added the word “distraction” to the verse. I asked him which Bible translation he is referring to and he has not replied back yet.

Note: Yes, I have known the forum has a Modern bible translation available whereby we can read it by hovering our mouse over the verse posted. But our fellow neighborhood CF poster who quoted Deuteronomy 17:17 was not quoting from the ASV on the forums, though. The word “distraction” is not in the ASV translation on the forums.

In any event, I hope this clears things up.
May God bless you, friend.

GreekOrthodox · Jan 6, 2022

BeingThere said:
If anyone is interested in it, The Unvarnished New Testament reads as the original Greek would, without verse numbers, single column--like a novel, if you will. The translator also translates directly from the Greek, without filtering the language through Catholic doctrinal authority: whereas Spirit, which is in nearly all translations, reads breath at times in The Unvarnished New Testament, as in "God's breath." Not to confuse or somehow discourage any believers, but this is actually how the Greek should read. Other interesting simplifications and clarifications, along with poignant and beautiful language make this a penetrating and inspiring read. The effect is as if the saints were speaking directly to you, in a common tongue and descriptive language.

Most Bibles dont go through translation through the Catholic church. NIV is a major example of this which had no Catholics on the team.

As I do read Greek, any translation by a single individual should be avoided. When I was in seminary, my had to translate the Gospel according to John and then compare. While everyone was close, there were differences in some wording. Even in the Greek Orthodox church, we have three main translations of the services for Holy Week and they all have differences.

SkyWriting · Jan 6, 2022

messianist said:
Everything you say

But I say everything I say.

messianist · Jan 6, 2022

SkyWriting said:
But I say everything I say.

Yeah understand not relevant to the scriptures tho .

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

BeingThere said:
As errant believers annex authority from a priestly class and even responsible leaders around them, they can develop radical beliefs "justified" by their own interpretation of scripture. On the other hand, a universal, "true church" retains authority over the beliefs of its membership. The Bible has no such apparatus for containing belief, because it is lifeless [as a book, not as to what it describes].

The Counsel meeting in Acts demonstrates an universal church having authority.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

BeingThere said:
It's only hateful and racist if

"Then it would be well to go to the index and look under “dark,” or “darkness.” That refers you not only to 1 Nephi 12:23, but also to Alma 3:6 and Mormon 5:15, which shed further light on the subject."

Claiming there was not hateful racism among LDS leader is just laughable friend.
#36 Messenger, Booth Confirms Revelation

#36 Messenger, "Bleaching" the Lamanites

#36 Messenger, Cover-up on Negro Doctrine

#36 Messenger, Negro Doctrine Cost 20,000 Converts

#36 Messenger, Indians Disturbed

#39 Messenger, Blacks Receive LDS Priesthood

#46 Messenger, A ~~White~~ Pure and Delightsome People

#73 Messenger, Excommunication

#93 Messenger, Changing the Anti-Black Doctrine

#93 Messenger, Pressure Forces Revelation

#100 Messenger, 1960's: Blacks and the Priesthood

#100 Messenger, 1970's: Blacks and Priesthood

#100 Messenger, 1970's: Blacks Given the Priesthood

#100 Messenger, Changes in the Book of Mormon

#100 Messenger, General Authority Excommunicated

#101 Messenger, Mormons, Blacks and Fundamentalists

#101 Messenger, 1978 Priesthood Change

#102 Messenger, Blacks and the Mormon Priesthood

#103 Messenger, Who are the Lamanites?

#110 Messenger, Blacks and the Priesthood

#113 Messenger, Blacks

#114 Messenger, Mormon Expansion into Black Africa

#118 Messenger, Blacks Cursed: Doctrine or Folklore? BYU Professor's Racial Comments Stir National Controversy

#119 Messenger, Blacks Cursed

#121 Messenger, 12. Blacks and Priesthood.

#123 Messenger, Racist statements about Indians and Blacks.

Brigham Young Interview by Horace Greeley, July 13, 1859

Brigham Young's Speech on Slavery, Blacks, and the Priesthood

Changing World, Changing the Anti-Black Doctrine (Chapter 10)

Changing World, Destroys Basis for Anti-Black Doctrine

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

Curse of Cain? Racism in the Mormon Church
Part One
Racism in the Book of Mormon
Who are the Lamanites?
Dark and Loathsome?
Lamanites and DNA
Israelites and Gentiles
Book of Moses
Trouble in Missouri
Abolitionists
Book of Abraham
Book of Abraham from Papyrus?
Doctrine of Pre-Existence
Patriarchal Blessings
Changing the Blood
Part Two
Seed of Cain
A Black Devil?
Apostates Become Black?
Through the Flood
"Death on the Spot"
Segregated Blood
Early Black Converts
Black Pete
Elijah Abel
Abel's Descendants
Walker Lewis
Jane Manning James
William McCary
Samuel D. Chambers
Slaves in Utah Territory
Green Flake
Hark Lay
Oscar Crosby
Betsy Crosby
Dan
Venus
Part Three
Twentieth Century Attitudes
Blacks not Proselytized
Summary of LDS Teaching on Blacks
Mission to Nigeria
Civil Rights
Martin Luther King
Is King a Mormon?
BYU Boycotted
First Presidency Statement
Problems Increase
Blacks at BYU
Vigilante Groups
The Mormon Choir
Genesis Group
Boy Scouts
Protest by Douglas Wallace
Officer Olson Shot
Byron Marchant
Part Four
Problems in Brazil
Will Pressure Bring Change?
The 1978 Announcement
Brigham Young Misrepresented
Polygamists Oppose Giving Priesthood to Blacks
Intermarriage
Revelation Sustained at Fall Conference
How Did the Revelation Come?
What Constitutes Revelation?
Fighting Racism
Missionaries to Brazil
Work in Ghana
Minorities in Leadership
George P. Lee
Helvecio Martins
Prominent Black Converts to Mormonism
Eldridge Cleaver
Gladys Knight
Thurl Bailey
Current Attitudes
Conclusion
Appendix A
Brigham Young's Address to Legislature Feb. 5, 1852
Wilford Woodruff's Account of B. Young's Address
Appendix B
"Race Problems—As They Affect The Church" Mark E. Petersen's Address on August 27, 1954 at BYU
Appendix C
Joseph Fielding Smith letter to Joseph H. Henderson
Joseph Fielding Smith letter to Morris L. Reynolds
Appendix D
Genealogical Records of Prominent Black Activists
Bibliography
Following the Brethren: "ALL ARE ALIKE UNTO GOD"
Indian Polygamy Revelation
Racial Statements Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

Racial Statements in LDS Scriptures

Book of Mormon

1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary) ". . . she was exceedingly fair and white."

1 Nephi 12:23 (Prophecy of Lamanites after Christ) ". . . became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."

1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) ". . . they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain."

2 Nephi 5:21 ". . . a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

2 Nephi 30:6 (Prophecy to Lamanites) ". . . scales of darkness shall begin to fall . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people." (Changed to pure and delightsome in 1981)

Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) ". . .whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . ."

Jacob 3:8-9 ". . .their skins will be whiter than yours . . . revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins . . ."

Alma 3:6 ". . . skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion. . ."

Alma 3:8 (Cursed) ". . .that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren . . .that they might not mix . . ."

Alma 3:9 ". . . whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed."

Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) ". . . set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed. . ."

Alma 3:19 (Amlicites cursed) ". . . brought upon themselves the curse ..."

Alma 23:18 ". . . [Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them."

3 Nephi 2:14-16 ". . . Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites . . . became exceedingly fair . . ."

3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples) ". . . they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness . . . nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof . . . they were white, even as Jesus."

Mormon 5:15 (Prophecy about Lamanites) ". . .shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us . . ."

Mormon 5:17 "They were once a delightsome people . . ."

Pearl of Great Price

Moses 7:8 ". . . a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan . . ."

Moses 7:12 ". . . Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were [except] the people of Canaan, to repent . . ."

Moses 7:22 ". . . for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them."

Abraham 1:21 ". . . king of Egypt [Pharaoh] was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth."

Abraham 1:27 ". . . Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood . . ."

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

"BLEACHING" THE LAMANITES

Like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the second President of the Mormon Church, taught that "the curse will be removed" from off the Indians and "they will become 'a white and delightsome people.' " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, page 143)

While Brigham Young suppressed the 1831 revelation, there is evidence that he was familiar with its teaching that the Indians should be made white through intermarriage. William Hall said that just after the Mormons left Nauvoo, Brigham Young gave a speech which "was in substance as follows":

"We are now going to the Lamanites, to whom we intend to be messengers of instruction. . . . We will show them that in consequence of their transgressions a curse has been inflicted upon them—in the darkness of their skins. We will have intermarriages with them, they marrying our young women, and we taking their young squaws to wife. By these means it is the will of the Lord that the curse of their color shall be removed and they restored to their pristine beauty. . ." (The Abominations of Mormonism Exposed, Cincinnati, 1852, page 59)

Juanita Brooks gives the following information concerning the Salmon River Mission:

Very early, some of the Mormon leaders recommended that the missionaries marry Indian women as a means of cementing the friendship between the races. . . .

The Elders who were sent to the Salmon River Mission were given similar instructions by Brigham Young and his party, who visited them in May, 1857. At least three different missionaries tell of them, . . . Milton G. Hammond says simply, "The president and members of the Twelve all spoke. Pres. Young spoke to Elders marrying natives." William H. Dame . . . wrote in his journal: "Meeting was held . . . Young men might take squaws to wife. . . ." The mission clerk, David Moore, gave a somewhat more detailed account:

"Sunday, May 10, [1857] . . . Pres. H. C. Kimball & Wells addressed Missionaries . . . on the importance of the Missionaries being faithful . . . and for them to marry the Native women. . . . Pres. B. Young said, . . . when the Lord opened they [sic] way before them so that they Could Marry Girls they would be very likely to be enabled to keep them. . . ."

As a result of these teachings, at least three of the brethren married Indian women. . . . As to the Indian women whom they had taken as wives the "L.D.S. Journal History" of April 9, 1858, records: "Two squaws who had married the brethren refused to come, fearing the soldiers would kill all the Mormons." (Utah Historical Quarterly, vol. 12, pp. 28-30)

T. B. H. Stenhouse gives the following information concerning the Salmon River Mission:

Before any of the married brethren could make love to a maiden with the view of making her a second, third, or tenth wife, he was expected to go and obtain Brigham's permission, . . . He sent at one time a mission to Fort Limhi, Salmon River, to civilize the Indians. The brethren were counselled not to take their families with them, but they were to live with the Indians, to educate and civilize them, and to teach them various trades and farming. When Brigham and Heber afterwards visited the missionaries to see how they were succeeding, Heber, in his quaint way, told them that he did not see how the modern predictions could well be fulfilled about the Indians becoming "a white and delightsome people" without extending polygamy to the natives. The approach of the United States army, in 1857, contributed to break up that mission, but not before Heber's hint had been clearly understood, and the prophecy half fulfilled! Heber was very practical, and believed that the people should never ask "the Lord" to do for them what they could do themselves, and, as all "Israel" had long prayed that the Indians might speedily become a "white and delightsome people," he thought it was the duty of the missionaries to assist "the Lord" in fulfilling his promises. This was not the first time that a Mormon prophet attempted to aid in bringing to pass the prophecies of "the Lord." More than one missionary appears to have thoroughly understood him! (The Rocky Mountain Saints, pp. 657-659)

In a footnote on page 659 of the same book, Mr. Stenhouse stated:

One young man replied to Brother Heber that it was the teaching of the Church that the elders should always follow their "file-leaders," and that "if President Young and he should each take a squaw to wife and thus set the example, they would certainly follow suit." That ended the "bleaching" of the "Lamanites."

William Hall claimed that Brigham Young was married "to two young squaws," but so far we have been unable to find any documentation for this statement. According to John D. Lee , on May 12, 1849, Brigham Young said that he did not want to take the Indians "in his arms until the curse is removed from of[f] them. . . . But we will take their children & s[c]hool them & teach them to be clenly & to love morality & then raise up seed amoung them & in this way they will be brought back into the presance & knowledge of God. . . ." (A Mormon Chronicle, The Diaries of John D. Lee, vol. 1, page 108)

It would appear, then, that Brigham Young would not follow Joseph Smith's revelation to take "wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just, . . ." Even though the revelation said that "their females are more virtuous than the gentiles," Brigham Young built up his "kingdom" with women who were already "white and delightsome."

If Brigham Young did not follow the 1831 revelation to marry the Lamanites, we must remember that he was only following the example of Joseph Smith, for Smith also married "white" women. Though Young suppressed Smith's 1831 revelation and chose "white" women in preference to the Lamanites, he did at least encourage others to marry them "that the curse of their color shall be removed and they restored to their pristine beauty."

After Brigham Young's death the idea that the Indians should be made "white and delightsome" through intermarriage began to fall into disrepute. The Mormon leaders have tended to frown upon interracial marriage with the Indians, even though there is no written rule against the practice.

The Mormon Apostle Mark E. Petersen made these comments in an address delivered at Brigham Young University:

What should be our attitude as Latter-day Saints toward negro and other dark race? . . . We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter-day Saints. These are rewards and punishments, . . .

Now let's talk segregation again for a few moments. . . . When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, . . . He engaged in an act of segregation. . . . In placing a curse on Laman and Lemuel, He engaged in segregation. . . .

The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He places a dark skin upon them as a curse—as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. (2 Nephi 5:21) . . .

What is our advice with respect to intermarriage with Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiians and so on? I will tell you what advice I give personally. If a boy or girl comes to me claiming to be in love with a Chinese or Japanese or a Hawaiian or a person of any other dark race, I do my best to talk them out of it. I tell them that I think the Hawaiians should marry Hawaiians, the Japanese ought to marry Japanese, and the Chinese ought to marry Chinese, and the Caucasians should marry Caucasians, . . . I teach against inter-marriage of all kinds. (Race Problems—As They Affect The Church, Address by Mark E. Petersen, Brigham Young University, August 27, 1954)

Mark E. Petersen is second in line to become President of the Mormon Church. The Apostle Petersen and other Mormon leaders who are opposed to intermarriage will probably be very embarrassed now that the 1831 revelation has come to light. The fact that they have suppressed this revelation plainly shows that they do not really believe that it came from God. They have been involved in a cover-up to protect the image of Joseph Smith.

In our new book Mormonism Like Watergate? we have additional information on the 1831 revelation and the origin of plural marriage in the Mormon Church.

COVER-UP ON NEGRO DOCTRINE

While the Indians are considered to be under a curse, they can still hold the Priesthood. Negroes, on the other hand, are denied the Priesthood and cannot be married in the temple. According to Mormon leaders, the curse on the Negro cannot be removed through intermarriage. The Apostle Mark E. Petersen stated:

We must not intermarry with the Negro. Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would all be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. (Race Problems—As They Affect The Church)

The Mormon leaders have suppressed some very important documents on the development of the anti-Negro doctrine. For instance, in our new book Mormonism Like Watergate? we reproduce an important address by Brigham Young which has been suppressed since 1852. Another important document which has been suppressed is the patriarchal blessing given to Elijah Able. Elijah Able was a Negro who was ordained to the Priesthood during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Some Mormons claim that Able was "light of color" and that Joseph Smith was not aware of the fact that he had Negro blood when he allowed him to be ordained. Abel's patriarchal blessing proves that these apologists are mistaken. This blessing was given by Joseph Smith's father, who was Patriarch to the Church and was "sustained by the Saints as a prophet, seer, and revelator." (Doctrines of the Kingdom, page 191)

Lester E. Bush, Jr., cites portions of this blessing in his article in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1973, but it has never been published in its entirety. Fortunately, Michael Marquardt obtained a copy and we have printed it in Mormonism Like Watergate? Since we do not have much room here, we will only print a few important extracts:

A blessing under the hands of Joseph Smith, Sen., upon Elijah Abel, . . . Thou has been ordained an Elder and annointed to secure thee against the power of the destroyer. . . . Thou shalt travel in the East, and visit foreign countries, speak in various tongues, and shalt be able to teach different languages. . . . Thou shalt be made equal to thy brethren, and thy soul be white in eternity and thy robes glittering: thou shalt receive these blessings because of the covenants of thy fathers. Thou shalt save thy thousands, . . . These and all the blessings which thou canst desire in righteousness, I seal upon thee, in the name of Jesus. Amen. W. A. Cowdery, Assistant Recorder. ("Patriarchal Blessing Book," vol. 2, page 88, typed copy)

Now, if this patriarchal blessing was given by revelation, then it proves that God himself was unaware of the fact that the Negro should not hold the priesthood. It says plainly that Elijah Abel had "been ordained and Elder," and the promise that Abel's soul would "be white in eternity" shows that it was obvious that he was black. The reader will note that the blessing also states that Abel was to be "made equal" to his brethren. This blessing seems to show that neither the early Mormons nor their God were aware that the Negro could not hold the Priesthood.

There are reports of another early patriarchal blessing which may be even more important than the blessing given to Elijah Abel. Michael Marquardt reports that in April of 1965 he obtained permission from the Church Historian Joseph Fielding Smith to examine a microfilm which contained the first three volumes of patriarchal blessings given during Joseph Smith's lifetime. As he was going through the microfilm he discovered a blessing given to a descendant of "Ham" — i.e., a Negro according to Mormon theology. The blessing went on to state that through the blood of Christ the "curse" has been removed. Unfortunately, Mr. Marquardt was not allowed to make any notes at the time he was looking at this film, and now even the top Mormon scholars are denied access to the early patriarchal blessing books. The Mormon leaders apparently realize that if the patriarchal blessing which tells of the "curse" being removed from a descendant of "Ham" were to be made public, it might entirely destroy all basis for the anti-Negro doctrine.

NEGRO DOCTRINE COST 20,000 CONVERTS

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

Since its beginning the Mormon Church has taught that a dark skin is a sign of God's displeasure. This teaching comes directly from Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon teaches that about 600 B.C. a prophet named Lehi brought his family to America. Those who were righteous (the Nephites) had a white skin, but those who rebelled against God (the Lamanites) were cursed with a dark skin. The Lamanites eventually destroyed the Nephites; therefore, the Indians living today are referred to as Lamanites. The following verses are found in the Book of Mormon and explain the curse on the Lamanites:

And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 12:23)

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity . . . wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. (2 Nephi 5:21)

And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression. . . (Alma 3:6)

The Book of Mormon stated that when the Lamanites repented of their sins "their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites" (3 Nephi 2:15). The Book of Mormon also promised that in the last days the Lamanites—i.e., the Indians—will repent and "many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:6).

While the Mormon Church leaders taught that Indians were cursed with a dark skin they went a step further with regard to blacks. They claimed that God would not even allow blacks to hold the priesthood. After a great deal of pressure was exerted against them, the Mormon leaders finally had a new revelation granting blacks the priesthood (Deseret News, June 9, 1978). In The Changing World of Mormonism, pages 324-25, we wrote:

One issue that Mormon leaders now seem to be dodging is that concerning skin color. As we pointed out earlier, Mormon theology has always taught that "a black skin is a mark of the curse of heaven placed upon some portions of mankind" (Juvenile Instructor, vol. 3, p. 157). The Book of Mormon itself is filled with the teaching that people with dark skins are cursed. . .

Now that they [Church leaders] have abandoned the idea that blacks cannot hold the priesthood, they should explain . . . if they are repudiating the Book of Mormon teaching that a dark skin is given by God as a "curse." By giving a "revelation" on the blacks without explaining its implications, the Mormon leaders are leaving their people in a dense doctrinal fog.

One of the most embarrassing things about the doctrine concerning the Indians is that they are not becoming "white" as the Book of Mormon prophesied. The anti-Mormon writer Gordon H. Fraser claims that the "skin color" of the Indians converted to Mormonism "has not been altered in the least because of their adherence to the Mormon doctrines" (What Does The Book of Mormon Teach? p. 46).

It now appears that the Mormon leaders are trying to "dissolve" the doctrine that the Indians will turn white after turning to Mormonism. The Church has just released its 1981 printing of the "triple combination" which contains the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. This new publication contains a very important change. Previous editions of the Book of Mormon had said that in the last days the Indians "shall be a white and delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:6). In the new edition this has been altered to read that the Indians "shall be a pure and delightsome people."

The official Church magazine, The Ensign, tries to justify this change by stating:

Most students of latter-day scriptures are aware that from the very first printing typographical errors have crept into the Book of Mormon. . . .

The Prophet himself attempted to correct some of these kinds of errors, but his many duties prevented him from completing the project; and even so, some of his corrections seem to have disappeared again in later editions. For example, the 1830 and 1837 printings of the Book of Mormon contained a prophecy that the Lamanites would one day become "a white and delightsome people" (2 Ne. 30:6). In the 1840 printing, which the Prophet edited, this passage was changed to read "a pure and delightsome people," but for some reason later printings reverted to the original wording. (The Ensign, October 1981, pages 17-18)

It should be noted that Church leaders are unable to produce any documentary evidence to support their claim that this was merely a correction by Joseph Smith of a typographical error. There were originally two handwritten manuscripts for the Book of Mormon—a copy which was written by Joseph Smith's scribes as he dictated it and a second "emended" copy that was prepared for the printer. Unfortunately, most of the first manuscript was destroyed through water damage. The Mormon scholar Stanley R. Larson informs us that this manuscript "does not exist for this section of the text. . . ." ("A Study of Some Textual Variations in the Book of Mormon Comparing the Original and the Printer's Manuscripts and the 1830, the 1837, and the 1840 Editions," Unpublished M.A. thesis, Brigham Young University, April 1974, page 283)

Fortunately, the second handwritten manuscript—the copy given to the printer to use to set the type for the first printing of the Book of Mormon—was preserved by Book of Mormon witness Oliver Cowdery and is still in excellent shape. This handwritten manuscript does contain the portion printed as 2 Nephi 30:6. It uses the word "white," and therefore does not support the claim that Joseph Smith was only correcting a typographical error (see Restoration Scriptures, by Richard P. Howard, Independence, Missouri, 1969, p. 49). It should be remembered also that both the first two editions of the Book of Mormon (1830 and 1837) used the word "white." It is especially significant that the 1837 edition retained this reading because the preface to this edition stated that "the whole has been carefully reexamined and compared with the original manuscripts, by elder Joseph Smith, Jr., the translator of the book of Mormon, assisted by the present printer, brother O. Cowdery, . . ." (Book of Mormon, 1837 Edition, Preface, as cited in The Ensign, September 1976, page 79)

Besides all the evidence from the original Book of Mormon manuscript and the first two printed editions, there is another passage in the Book of Mormon which makes it very clear that Joseph Smith believed that the Lamanites' skins could be turned "white" through repentence:

And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; (3 Nephi 2:15)

We have taken this quotation directly from the new "triple combination" to show that the Mormon Church is still bound by the belief that righteousness affects skin color even though they have changed the verse appearing as 2 Nephi 30:6.

The fact that Joseph Smith believed that the Indians' skins would actually become white seems to also be verified by a revelation he gave in 1831. In The Changing World of Mormonism, pages 207-214, we discuss this revelation and show that it was suppressed until 1974 when we printed it in Mormonism Like Watergate? Since that time the Mormon Church Historian Leonard J. Arrington and his assistant Davis Bitton published the important portion of it in their book, The Mormon Experience, page 195:

"For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles."

Like Joseph Smith, President Brigham Young taught that the Indians would "become 'a white and delightsome people' " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 143). While Brigham Young never released the 1831 revelation, there is evidence that he was familiar with its teaching that the Indians should be made white through intermarriage. In a book published in 1852, William Hall commented:

About the time of the breaking up of the camp at Sugar Creek, the people were called together and several speeches delivered to them by Brigham Young, and others. The speech of Young was in substance as follows:

. . . We are now going to the Lamanites, to whom we intend to be messengers of instruction. . . . We will show them that in consequence of their transgressions a curse has been inflicted upon them—in the darkness of their skins. We will have intermarriages with them, they marrying our young women, and we taking their young squaws to wife. By these means it is the will of the Lord that the curse of their color shall be removed and they restored to their pristine beauty. . . (The Abominations of Mormonism Exposed, Cincinnati, 1852, pp. 58-59)

T.B.H. Stenhouse related that Heber C. Kimball, a member of the First Presidency, spoke to some of the missionaries and

told them that he did not see how the modern predictions could well be fulfilled about the Indians becoming "a white and delightsome people" without extending polygamy to the natives, . . . (The Rocky Mountain Saints, 1873, pp. 657-59)

Although Joseph Smith's 1831 revelation commanding Mormons to marry Indians to make them "white" was suppressed, recent leaders have continued to teach the Book of Mormon doctrine that the Indians become white when they turn to Mormonism. Spencer W. Kimball, who became the twelfth President of the Church on December 30, 1973, has strongly endorsed that teaching. In the LDS General Conference, October 1960, Mr. Kimball stated:

I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today . . . they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people. . . . For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. . . . The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl—sixteen—sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. . . . These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated. (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-23)

The reader will notice that Spencer W. Kimball used the Book of Mormon phrase, "a white and delightsome people." This, of course, is the very phrase that has now been changed to read, "a pure and delightsome people." It is very difficult to see any evidence of inspiration in this whole matter.

In any event, the Church now wants to suppress the Book of Mormon's teaching concerning skin color. Ron Barker, of the Associated Press, questioned Church spokesman Jerry P. Cahill concerning the matter:

Asked whether church members should assume that faithful Mormon Indians would one day become light complexioned, Cahill said they should assume that they will become a "pure and delightsome people." (Salt Lake Tribune, September 30, 1981)

We can probably expect more revisions in Mormon books to cover up this embarrassing doctrine. Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, who has recently had to revise his book Mormon Doctrine to conform to the change on the anti-black doctrine, will undoubtedly have to revise his section on the "LAMANITE CURSE." On pages 428-29 of the 1979 printing of Mormon Doctrine we find the following:

. . . a twofold curse came upon the Lamanites: . . ."they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations." (1 Ne. 12:23.) So that they "might not be enticing" unto the Nephites, "the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." (2 Ne. 5:20-25; Alma 3:14-16.) . . .

During periods of great righteousness, when groups of Lamanites accepted the gospel and turned to the Lord, the curse was removed from them . . . the curse was removed from a group of Lamanite converts and they became white like the Nephites. (3 Ne. 2:15-16.) . . .

When the gospel is taken to the Lamanites in our day and they come to a knowledge of Christ and of their fathers, then the "scales of darkness" shall fall from their eyes; "and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people." (2 Ne. 30:6.) Finally, before the judgment bar of God, all who have been righteous, Lamanites and Nephites alike, will be free from the curse of spiritual death and the skin of darkness. (Jac. 3:5-9)

We believe, of course, that Apostle McConkie has the right to alter his book in any way he desires. His changes concerning the anti-black doctrine are certainly a step in the right direction. When it comes to the Book of Mormon, however, we wonder how the Mormon leaders can justify altering words that were supposed to have been translated by the power of God.
Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index
Issue 36 - Salt Lake City Messenger
Issue 46 - Salt Lake City Messenger

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

Racism*
#39 Messenger, Brigham Young Misrepresented
Brigham Young Interview by Horace Greeley, July 13, 1859
Brigham Young's Speech on: Slavery, Blacks, and the Priesthood
Changing World, Brigham Young Misrepresented
Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index S-Z

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

Brigham Young's Speech on
Slavery, Blacks, and the Priesthood
(Brigham Young Addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, dated Feb. 5, 1852,
located in the LDS Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah)

KEY POINTS:

Blacks and the Priesthood parts in RED.
Blood Atonement parts in PURPLE.
Spelling is as it appears in original.
Speach by Gov. Young in Joint Session of the Legeslature.
Feby. 5th 1852 giving his veiws on slavery.

I rise to make a few remarks. The Items before the house I do not understand.

The principle of slavery I understand, at least I have self confidence enough, and confidence enough in God to beleive I do. I beleive still further that a great many others understand it as I do. A great portion of this community have been instructed, and have applied their minds to it, and as far as they have, they agree preciesly in the principles of slavery. My remarks in the first place will be upon the cause of the introduction of slavery. Long ago mama Eve our good old mother Eve pertook of the forbiden fruit and this made a slave of her. Adam hated very much to have her taken out of the garden of Eden, and now our old daddy says I beleive I will eat of the fruit and become a slave too. This was the first introduction of slavery upon this earth; and there has been not a son or daughter of adam from that day to this but what where slaves in the true sense of the word.

That slavery will continue, untill there is a people raised up upon the face of the earth who will contend for righteous principles, who will not only beleive in but operate, with every power and faculty given to them to help to esstablish the kingdom of God, to overcome the devil, and drive him from the earth, then will this curse be removed. This was the starting point of slavery. Again after adam, and Eve had pertook of the curse, we find they had two sons Cain and Able, but which was the oldest I cannot positively say; but this I know, Cain was given more to evil practices than Abel, but whether he was the oldest or not matters not to me. Adam was commanded to sacrifise, and offer up his offerings to God, that placed him into the garden of Eden. Through the faith and obedience of Able to his heavenly father, Cain became jealous of him, and he laid a plan to obtain all his flocks; for through his perfect obedience to father he obtained more blessings than Cain; consequently he took it into his heart to put able able of this mortal existance. after the deed was done, the Lord enquired to able, and made Caine own what he had done with him. Now says the grand father I will not distroy the seed of michal and his wife; and cain I will not kill you, nor suffer any one to kill you, but I will put a mark upon you. What is that mark? you will see it on the countenance of every African you ever did see upon the face of the earth, or ever will see. Now I tell you what I know; when the mark was put upon Cain, Abels children was in all probability young; the Lord told Cain that he should not receive the blessings of the preisthood nor his seed, until the last of the posterity of Able had received the preisthood, until the redemtion of the earth. If there never was a prophet, or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that they cannot bear rule in the preisthood, for the curse on them was to remain upon them, until the resedue of the posterity of Michal and his wife receive the blessings, the seed of Cain would have received had they not been cursed; and hold the keys of the preisthood, until the times of the restitution shall come, and the curse be wiped off from the earth, and from michals seed. Then Cain's seed will be had in rememberance, and the time come when that curse should be wiped off.

Now then in the kingdom of God on the earth, a man who has has the Affrican blood in him cannot hold one jot nor tittle of preisthood; Why? because they are the true eternal principals the Lord Almighty has ordained, and who can help it, men cannot. the angels cannot, and all the powers of earth and hell cannot take it off, but thus saith the Eternal I am, what I am, I take it off at my pleasure, and not one partical of power can that posterity of Cain have, until the time comes the says he will have it taken away. That time will come when they will have the privilege of all we have the privelege of and more. In the kingdom of God on the earth the Affricans cannot hold one partical of power in Government. The the subjects, the rightfull servants of the resedue of the children of Adam, and the resedue of the children through the benign influence of the Spirit of the Lord have the privilege of seeing to the posterity of Cain; inasmuch as it is the Lords will they should receive the spirit of God by Baptisam; and that is the end of their privilege; and there is not power on earth to give them any more power.

You talke of the dark skin, I never saw a white man on earth. I have seen persons whoes hair came pretty nigh being white, but to talk about white skins it is something intirely unknown, though some skins are fairer than others; look at the black eye and the jet black hair, we often see upon men and women who are called white, there is no such things as white folkes. We are the children of Adam, who receive the blessings, and that is enough for us if we are not quite white.

But let me tell you further. Let my seed mingle with the seed of Cain, that brings the curse upon me, and upon my generations, -- we will reap the same rewards with Cain.

In the preisthood I will tell you what it will do. Where the children of God to mingle there seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the preisthood upon themselves but they entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it. If a man in an ungaurded moment should commit such a transgression, if he would walk up and say cut off my head, and kill man woman and child it would do a great deal towards atoneing for the sin. Would this be to curse them? no it would be a blessing to them. -- it would do them good that they might be saved with their Bren. A man would shuder should they here us take about killing folk, but it is one of the greatest blessings to some to kill them, allthough the true principles of it are not understood. [Web-editor: Reference to Blood Atonement.]

I will had one thing more. It is not in the power of a man on the face of the earth to take more life than he can give, that is a proper son of Adam. How many times I have heard it said, and how many times has it been reiterated in my ears, and in yours, that to take a life, is to take what you cannot give; This is perfect nonsence; What do I do by taking a mans head off after he is condemned by the Law? I put an end to the existence of the mortal tabernacle; but the life still remains. the body and the spirit is only seperated, this is all that can be done by any mortal man upon the face of the earth.

Can I give that life? I can, I can make as good tabernacles as any other man, if you do not beleive it go and look at my children, therefore that saying is nonsense. We form the tabernacle for the eternal spirit or life that comes from God. We can only put an end to the existence of that tabernacle, and this is the principle of sacrifice.

What was the cause of the antients drawing up hundreds and thousands of Bullocks, and Hefiers, and Lambs, and doves, and almost every other creature arround them, of which they took the best and the fatest, and offered them up as sacrifices unto the Lord. Was it not for the remission of the sins of the people. We read also in the new Testament that a man was sacrifised for the sins of the people. If he had not shed that blood which was given to him in the organisation of his body or Tabernacle, you and I could have had no remission of sins. It is the greatest blessing that could come to some men to shed their blood on the ground, and let it come up before the Lord as an atonement. You nor I cannot take any more life than we can give.

Again to the subject before us; as to The men bearing rule; not one of the children of old Cain, have one partical of right to bear Rule in Government affairs from first to last, they have no buisness there. this privilege was taken from them by there own transgressions, and I cannot help it; and should you or I bear rule we ought to do it with dignity and honour before God.

I am as much oposed to the principle of slavery as any man in the present acceptation or usage of the term, it is abused. I am opposed to abuseing that which God has decreed, to take, a blessing, and make a curse of it. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants, but those they serve should use them with all the heart and feeling, as they would use their own children, and their compassion should reach over them, and round about them, and treat them as kindly, and with that humane feeling necessary to be shown to mortall beings of the human species. Under these sercumstances there blessings in life are greater in proportion than those who have to provide the bread and dinner for them

We know there is a portion of inhabitants of the earth who dwell in Asia that are negroes, and said to be jews. The blood of Judah has not only mingled almost with all nations, but also with the blood of Cain, and they have mingled there seeds together; These negro Jewes may keep up all the outer ordinenances of the jewish releigeon, they may have there sacrifices, and they may perform all the releigeous seremonies any people on earth could perform, but let me tell you, that the day they consented to mingle their seed with Cannan, the preisthood was taken away from Judah, and that portion of Judahs seed will never get any rule, or blessings of the preisthood until Cain gets it. Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth; we will sommons the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishoprick, and all the elders of Isreal, suppose we summons them to apear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with with us and be pertakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the preisthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to desstruction, -- we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood untill that curse be removed.

Therefore I will not consent for one moment to have an african dictate me or any Bren. with regard to Church or State Government. I may vary in my veiwes from others, and they may think I am foolish in the things I have spoken, and think that they know more than I do, but I know I know more than they do. If the Affricans cannot bear rule in the Church of God, what buisness have they to bear rule in the State and Government affairs of this Territory or any others?

I the Government afairs of States and Territorys and kingdoms by right God should Govern. he should rule over nations, and controle kings. If we suffer the Devil to rule over us we shall not accomplish any good. I want the Lord to rule, and be our Governor and and dictater, and we are the boys to execute. I shall not consent for a moment to give way to a Gentile Spirit of contention, which is the cause of angry -------- Difference to the alinations of every Good feeling. It is for you and I to take a course, to bind our feelings together in an everlasting bond of union inasmuch as we love the Lord, which we ought to do more than selves. Consequently I will not consent for a moment to have the Children of Cain rule me nor my Bren. No, it is not right.

But say some, is there any thing of this kind in the Constitution, the U.S. has given us? If you will allow me the privilege telling right out, it is none of their damned buisness what we do or say here. What we do it is for them to sanction, and then for us to say what we like about it. It is written right out in the constitution, "that every free white male inhabitant above the age of twenty one years" &c. My mind is the same to day as when we where poreing over that constitution; any light upon the subject is the same, my judgement is the same, only a little more so. Prahapes I have said enough upon this subject. I have given you the true principles and doctrine. No man can vote for me or my Bren. in this Territory who has not the privilege of acting in Church affairs. Every man, and woman, and Child in this Territory are Citizens; to say the contrary is all nonsense to me. The indians are Citizens, the Africans are Citizens, and the jews than come from Asia, that are almost entirely of the blood of Cain, It is our duty to take care of them, and administer to them in all the acts of humanity, and kindness, they shall have the right of Citizenship, but shall not have the right to dictate in Church and State matters. The abolishonists of the east, have cirest them them, and. their whol argument are callculated to darken Counsel, as it was here yesterday. As for our bills passing here, we may lay the foundation for what? for men to come here from Africa or else where; by hundreds of thousands. When these men come here from the Islands, are they going to hold offices in Government No. It is for men who understand the knowlege of Government affairs to hold such offices, and on the other make provisions for them to plow, and to reap, and enjoy all that human beings can enjoy, and we protect them in it. Do we know how to amilerate the condition of these people? we do. Supose that five thousands of them come from the pacific Islands, and ten or fifteen thousands from Japan, or from China, not one soul of them would know how to vote for a Government officer, they therefore ought not in the first thing have anything to do in Government afairs.

What the Gentiles are doing we are consenting to do. What we are trying to do to day is to make the Negro equal with us in all our privilege. My voice shall be against all the day long. I shall not consent for one moment I will will call them a counsel. I say I will not consent for one moment for you to lay a plan to bring a curse upon this people. I shall not be while I am here.
Brigham Young's Speech on: Slavery, Blacks, and the Priesthood

pescador · Jan 6, 2022

BeingThere said:
As errant believers annex authority from a priestly class and even responsible leaders around them, they can develop radical beliefs "justified" by their own interpretation of scripture. On the other hand, a universal, "true church" retains authority over the beliefs of its membership. The Bible has no such apparatus for containing belief, because it is lifeless [as a book, not as to what it describes].

Yeah, better watch out for those apostles or even Christ Himself. They can develop radical beliefs "justified" by their own interpretation of scripture.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

The so-called LDS prophets have been preaching hate toward our black people until the last few decades.
1 John 3:15-17
New King James Version

15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Last Friday, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) made history by confronting its own history. For the first time, the LDS Church recognized and repudiated its racist past. And it did so, fittingly enough, in the form of a detailed history lesson.
An Evolving Mormon Church Finally Addresses a Racist Past

"Some Savage Tribe": Race, Legal Violence, and the Mormon War of 1838
T. Ward Frampton
Journal of Mormon History
Vol. 40, No. 1 (Winter 2014), pp. 175-207 (33 pages)
Published By: University of Illinois Press
"Some Savage Tribe": Race, Legal Violence, and the Mormon War of 1838 on JSTOR

What Does it Mean to be a White and Delightsome People?

Bottom line anyone who hates people are NOT Born Again and are not Christians. This means the foundations of the LDS false religion is sewage.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 6, 2022

BeingThere said:
Didn't the Jews have more than one name for God? I'm fairly certain that one name was "unspeakable," as speaking his name would make him common in our minds. Things definitely tend to lose some of their mystery and beauty the moment we start to describe them; I can see the logic in it. Is this YHWH?

Yes, friend, hare are some of them NAMES OF GOD - JewishEncyclopedia.com
"
Lesser used names of God

Adir — "Strong One".

Adir —

Adon Olam — "Master of the World".
Avinu Malkeinu — "Our Father, our King".

Avinu Malkenu —

Boreh — "the Creator".

Boreh —

Ehiyeh sh'Ehiyeh — "I Am That I Am": a modern Hebrew version of "Ehyeh asher Ehyeh".
Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak ve Elohei Ya`aqov — "God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob".
El ha-Gibbor — "God the hero" or "God the strong one".
Emet — "Truth".
E'in Sof — "endless, infinite", Kabbalistic name of God.
Ro'eh Yisra'el — "Shepherd of Israel".
Ha-Kaddosh, Baruch Hu — "The Holy One, Blessed be He".
Kaddosh Israel — "Holy One of Israel".
Melech ha-Melachim — "The King of Kings" or Melech Malchei ha-Melachim "King of Kings of Kings", to express superiority to the earthly rulers title.
Makom or Hamakom — literally "the place", meaning "The Omnipresent"; see Tzimtzum.
Magen Avraham — "Shield of Abraham".
YHWH-Yireh (Yahweh-Yireh) — "The Lord will provide" ( Genesis 22:13, 14).
YHWH-Rapha" — "The Lord that healeth" ( Exodus 15:26).
YHWH-Niss"i (Yahweh-Nissi) — "The Lord our Banner" (Exodus 17:8-15).
YHWH-Shalom — "The Lord our Peace" ( Judges 6:24).
YHWH-Ra-ah — "The Lord my Shepherd" ( Psalms 23:1).
YHWH-Tsidkenu — "The Lord our Righteousness" ( Jeremiah 23:6).
YHWH-Shammah — "The Lord is present" ( Ezekiel 48:35).
Tzur Israel — "Rock of Israel".
Ha Shem — "The Name"
Names of God in Judaism

I was taught 72 Hebrew, Jewish names for G_d in Temple School which are from Kabbalah.

Do You Know These 14 Hebrew Names of God? | God TV

New Interpretation of the bible

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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