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New early hominid fossil...

Willtor

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"So it's difficult to ask how things would look different if He were not real."
For me If God wasn't real people would die in childbirth, natural disasters would strike randomly regardless of beliefs and hilter would be able to murder millions without being stopped by an all knowing all loving god.
- Thats a description of the world

"You can certainly ask for evidence of a god from, say, the Roman or Greek Pantheon. They were basically super-beings"

I do and I bet you do too. And probably for both of us the lack of evidence leads us to reject those gods.

Why shouldnt we reject the biblical god on the same basis?

Because the biblical God is not a super-being. He is not man-writ-large. He isn't an old guy with a white beard sitting on a cloud like he is in Family Guy. The God that really is, does not reside within His creation. It could not contain Him. Thus, to one predisposed to believe that He is not, nothing in nature is evidence of Him or ever could be. To one predisposed to believe that He is, nature itself is His handiwork.

The step from polytheism to monotheism is not, in fact, a simple rejection of all of the old gods but one. In fact, the Genesis narrative never indicates, for example, that the Sun and the Moon are not gods. Merely that they are not worthy of worship. The original hearers of Genesis probably thought that the Sun and Moon were living things like we are living things. But they were told that when they perceived gods, even these were merely creatures.
 
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Melethiel

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"To believe in the face of incomprehensible chance like natural disasters and unspeakable evil like the deeds of Hitler, that God is, that God loves, that God is in control has always and will always take faith because it means believing in a reality that is denied by the empirical evidence."

Why should i deny reality that is supported by empirical evidence and take faith in something that seems to be opposed by reality?

"Why would you expect that in communications to bronze age people?"

Try to imagine, you're all powerful and you've decided to come to earth. You see people suffering all over the world. You see people starving all over the planet, you see people in pain needlessly. You could give them ideas of technology and help lessen their suffering or you could sacrifice you to yourself ( he could have just said - the world is absolved of sin without making them see a man suffer) and walk on water and heal a handful of people compared to what explaining the germ theory of disease would have healed. Also, you could have given them advanced ideas of crop rotation theory that weren't available at the time that would have saved millions.

Which one would you do?
Jesus didn't come to improve people's physical quality of life, he came to save humanity. As Jesus himself said, "what good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul". As for why God couldn't have just waved a magic wand and absolved the world of sin - well, no one can say for certain why God did things the way he did. However, it was at least partly to show how serious sin was - if sin didn't cost anything, if redemption didn't cost anything, what motivation would people have to change their ways?

Besides, if Jesus came when he did talking about germ theory, do you really think anyone would have taken him seriously?
 
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<3God

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"Jesus didn't come to improve people's physical quality of life"
Why the heck didn't he? He doesnt care about our suffering on Earth?

"However, it was at least partly to show how serious sin was - if sin didn't cost anything, if redemption didn't cost anything, what motivation would people have to change their ways?"

Have people changed their ways ? It would seem it was completely ineffective if this was the goal. God could have appeared as a 50 foot man, bellowed on about hell, perhaps showing people a vision of it. This would have likely been much more effective than what he actually did.

"Besides, if Jesus came when he did talking about germ theory, do you really think anyone would have taken him seriously?"

Jesus is all powerful and could have demonstrated the germ theory. People would have taken him super seriously, much much more than they even did.
 
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Willtor

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"To believe in the face of incomprehensible chance like natural disasters and unspeakable evil like the deeds of Hitler, that God is, that God loves, that God is in control has always and will always take faith because it means believing in a reality that is denied by the empirical evidence."

Why should i deny reality that is supported by empirical evidence and take faith in something that seems to be opposed by reality?

"Why would you expect that in communications to bronze age people?"

Try to imagine, you're all powerful and you've decided to come to earth. You see people suffering all over the world. You see people starving all over the planet, you see people in pain needlessly. You could give them ideas of technology and help lessen their suffering or you could sacrifice you to yourself ( he could have just said - the world is absolved of sin without making them see a man suffer) and walk on water and heal a handful of people compared to what explaining the germ theory of disease would have healed. Also, you could have given them advanced ideas of crop rotation theory that weren't available at the time that would have saved millions.

Which one would you do?

I feel like I'm about to parrot Melethiel, but...

Then we'd live healthy lives for one hundred years or so and then we'd die. And through it all, no knowledge of God but what philosophers can tease out. But a significant part of Jesus' message is that striving for the most and the best of worldly things is folly. Recall that the early Christians were eager for martyrdom and to suffer for Christ. They knew that it was possible to live with more comfort and material possession. But they thought what Christ had given them was better.
 
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Melethiel

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Have people changed their ways ? It would seem it was completely ineffective if this was the goal. God could have appeared as a 50 foot man, bellowed on about hell, perhaps showing people a vision of it. This would have likely been much more effective than what he actually did.
Of course, not everyone has. That's because most people rejected the message that Jesus brought. Think about it - if most people reject redemption even when it was shown to be costly, why would anyone accept it if it were cheap? If someone gives you a gift, do you value it more if it's something well thought out and expensive (whether in terms of time and labor or money), or if it's something they picked up at a yard sale?
And sure, God could have frightened everyone into submission - and that's great if you want cowering minions who are terrified of you. But instead of pure Law, Jesus also brought the Gospel - God wants people to serve him out of love, not fear.

Out of curiosity, how much of the Bible have you read and studied in depth?
 
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Melethiel

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3More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not put us to shame, because God&#8217;s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. Romans 5:3-5
 
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Willtor

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So God doesnt care about our suffering on earth?

Well, let's not get out of hand, here. It's difficult to read the Psalms without feeling like God has a heart for the poor and the oppressed.

But I don't feel like we're being productive, here. It seems like, with you, there are only extremes. E.g., either the Bible is literal or the Bible is false; either God's first priority is to alleviate suffering, or He doesn't care about people who suffer; etc.

I'm not sure this is an effective way to reason.
 
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gluadys

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"To believe in the face of incomprehensible chance like natural disasters and unspeakable evil like the deeds of Hitler, that God is, that God loves, that God is in control has always and will always take faith because it means believing in a reality that is denied by the empirical evidence."

Why should i deny reality that is supported by empirical evidence and take faith in something that seems to be opposed by reality?

Because it only seems to be opposed to reality. The true dimensions of reality include the disasters and the oppressions, and the love of God.

"Why would you expect that in communications to bronze age people?"

Try to imagine, you're all powerful and you've decided to come to earth. You see people suffering all over the world. You see people starving all over the planet, you see people in pain needlessly. You could give them ideas of technology and help lessen their suffering or you could sacrifice you to yourself ( he could have just said - the world is absolved of sin without making them see a man suffer) and walk on water and heal a handful of people compared to what explaining the germ theory of disease would have healed. Also, you could have given them advanced ideas of crop rotation theory that weren't available at the time that would have saved millions.

Which one would you do?


God has given us all that through the gift of reason which found out all these things. That is why we now support of population of nearly 7 billion instead of just the 1 billion of the 19th century.

"Jesus didn't come to improve people's physical quality of life"
Why the heck didn't he? He doesnt care about our suffering on Earth?


He cares so much he came to share it.

It would seem it was completely ineffective if this was the goal. God could have appeared as a 50 foot man, bellowed on about hell, perhaps showing people a vision of it. This would have likely been much more effective than what he actually did.

Why would you think that? Jesus knew the options. He rejected grandstanding when he met Satan in the desert.

"Besides, if Jesus came when he did talking about germ theory, do you really think anyone would have taken him seriously?"

Jesus is all powerful and could have demonstrated the germ theory. People would have taken him super seriously, much much more than they even did.

Ever do role playing games? (I don't, my daughter does.) There are (or used to be) books for doing solo role-plays. The story would take you so far, then give the hero (yourself, of course) a multiple choice--then refer you to another page that gave the consequences of your choice. In one I remember, the setting was medieval England and the hero a 20th century youth who was thrust back to that time. He manages to convince the king that he has important knowledge for the safety of the kingdom, but it involves information the king thinks is contradictory---to see to the safety of his kingdom he must find a place to the south where there is snow. The king objects that snow is found in the cold places of the north, not in the warm places of the south. So what to tell the king? One option was to explain that if you go far enough south to the south pole, it is just as cold and snowy as the north.

Guess what the consequence was of telling the king that. ("he's a liar and and a spy. Off with his head. Everyone knows it is impossible to go that far south and that no one lives at the antipodes.")

(The correct option was to say the destination must be in the Alps as even though they were to the south, the high mountains are covered with snow.)

The point? Just because you can demonstrate something doesn't mean you will be believed--especially if the information cannot be easily integrated into your students' current world-view. Look at the problem some people have integrating evolution into a world-view that includes faith in the God of the bible in spite of the multiple lines of evidence for evolution.

Finally, remember Jesus did not appear as God. He became a human being, and a human being of the lower social classes. Why would anyone take him seriously when he was a man without status, influence or proper education? People who were taken seriously in first century Palestine were never crucified.
 
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Assyrian

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Try to imagine, you're all powerful and you've decided to come to earth. You see people suffering all over the world. You see people starving all over the planet, you see people in pain needlessly. You could give them ideas of technology and help lessen their suffering or you could sacrifice you to yourself ( he could have just said - the world is absolved of sin without making them see a man suffer) and walk on water and heal a handful of people compared to what explaining the germ theory of disease would have healed. Also, you could have given them advanced ideas of crop rotation theory that weren't available at the time that would have saved millions.

Which one would you do?
Teach them to stop the killing and the hatred and to take care of one another?
 
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Mallon

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I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on evolution. I studied biology in college and I understand the tenets of the theory.
Great!

There is a big problem with it though, a problem so big that it led me not be able to accept it. It does conflict with Genesis.
It conflicts with a concordist interpretation of Genesis, just as heliocentrism conflicts with a concordist interpretation of the rest of the Bible. The problem isn't with the theory. It's with scientific concordism. Scientific concordism is a bankrupt hermeneutic that should be abandoned by Christianity.
 
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<3God

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I dont feel like you guys are adequatly dealing with what im saying. I dont mean this as an insult, Im just unfulfilled with the answers. I cant help but disbelieve in god as of now. I will further search reality to see If i can make sense of the bible in accordance with what we perceive. I appreciate all the help
 
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laconicstudent

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I dont feel like you guys are adequatly dealing with what im saying.

That is because we have been telling you that the Bible simply doesn't work, at all, if you try and interpret everything literally.

I dont mean this as an insult, Im just unfulfilled with the answers. I cant help but disbelieve in god as of now.

Why? Once again, Evolution doesn't disprove the existence of God, it only disproves the narrow-minded literal interpretation that has been abandoned by the vast majority of Christianity for years now.



I will further search reality to see If i can make sense of the bible in accordance with what we perceive. I appreciate all the help

I would advise you to stop taking it literally.
 
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<3God

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//Was your faith in Christ, or was it in a particular interpretation of Genesis?//

To me, (and maybe im wrong, but im just describing what's going on in my mind)
I dont think there is a reasonable interpretation of Genesis that accounts for evolution, even stretching it, to me, it somes to contradict evolution.

Im not saying ive proven the truth of this, just saying thats why for me

And when i conclude that the bible directly conflicts with what i accept as a fact, i cant throw out the facts, i must throw out the things that i dont *know* are facts ( the bible )


Im not saying ive proven the truth of this, just saying thats why for me
 
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gluadys

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//Was your faith in Christ, or was it in a particular interpretation of Genesis?//

To me, (and maybe im wrong, but im just describing what's going on in my mind)
I dont think there is a reasonable interpretation of Genesis that accounts for evolution, even stretching it, to me, it somes to contradict evolution.

Im not saying ive proven the truth of this, just saying thats why for me

And when i conclude that the bible directly conflicts with what i accept as a fact, i cant throw out the facts, i must throw out the things that i dont *know* are facts ( the bible )


Im not saying ive proven the truth of this, just saying thats why for me

This is exactly the sort of thing Augustine talked about in the 5th century.

“Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,… and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.”​

– St. Augustine, “De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim”
(The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

You have found facts that contradict a literal reading of Genesis. You are right to adhere to the facts (which, after all, are the work of God who made nature). But does that mean you have to discard the bible or only the literal reading of Genesis?

You might consider what these 19th century Christians had to say on the matter:



"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890​

Don't mistake an inadequate and misleading interpretation of scripture for the inspired Word of God in the bible.
 
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<3God

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I can only interpret the bible with my mind and even when i try to use allegory or metaphor to read Genesis 1, I keep coming up with it contradicting evolution.

Im not trying to convince you to agree with me. You should come to whatever conclusion you see fit.

Maybe someday i will make sense of it all, but as of now i just cannot bring myself to believe, even though i want to.
 
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Mallon

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I dont think there is a reasonable interpretation of Genesis that accounts for evolution, even stretching it, to me, it somes to contradict evolution.
The Bible contradicts lots of what we take for granted today. The Bible describes an earth that does not move and that is covered by a solid, crystalline dome that is the sky. But you don't believe these things, do you? Probably not, given that Christianity has come to understand these descriptions as an accommodation of God's message to the limitations of man's understanding. So if we're willing to see the Bible's description of astronomy in this way, why are so many Christians unwilling to see the Bible's description of biology in the same light? It doesn't strike me as consistent hermeneutics. I think a much more consistent view is offered here:
Untitled Document
 
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<3God

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"an accommodation of God's message to the limitations of man's understanding"

Why would god *have* to accomodate himself to man's understanding? He could make him understand. Furthermore, they couldnt have understood that the earth goes around the sun if they were told? It doesnt take a lot of proving to show people that the earth goes around the sun. For a perfect God it would be easier than snapping your fingers.

"The Bible contradicts lots of what we take for granted today"

This is why i cannot accept it as truth right now
 
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