New Creation Question

[MystyRock]

Have a few questions about New Creation. Ref 1 Cor 5:17 - "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"

We are changed at the point of our salvation. Hypothetically, what if someone is saved as a child and then years later suddenly experiences a change in perspective and discovers what they previously believed was not quite the entire picture?

Now, Bible verses have new and different meanings. God is now not viewed as a vengeful, overbearing God; but a loving God who seeks us and wants us.

Was the initial decision not real or was it not complete?

 

[BryanW92]

A person's salvation is the gift of grace from God. You get it when you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. In your example, the first time the person was saved, were they saved by Buddha or something that was not Christ? If it was Christ, then it was the same Christ that "saved" them the second time.

Oh sure, that person's beliefs may have changed some. Perhaps they went from Calvinist to Wesleyan or they became a KJV-only Christian or they now think that contemporary praise music is OK in church.

But, Jesus is still Jesus and the basics of the gospel don't change. The point is to not think so much about it. Just accept it and accept that humans change, so our perception of God may change too, but God is constant.

Even the God that seems to be cruel and overbearing in the OT and a God of love in the NT didn't change. It was humans who changed. Remember that there's 400 years between the OT and NT! That's a long time in human terms. We needed a stern father figure to set us right after the fall. We had to learn who the one, true God is and that took lots of tough love. Once we began to figure it out, the same God sent us Jesus to begin the next phase of his plan for our eventual redemption.

 

[Mr Dave]

Is our picture ever complete?

 

[circuitrider]

Have a few questions about New Creation. Ref 1 Cor 5:17 - "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"

We are changed at the point of our salvation. Hypothetically, what if someone is saved as a child and then years later suddenly experiences a change in perspective and discovers what they previously believed was not quite the entire picture?

Now, Bible verses have new and different meanings. God is now not viewed as a vengeful, overbearing God; but a loving God who seeks us and wants us.

Was the initial decision not real or was it not complete?

The Wesleyan perspective is that we are being sanctified in Christ, we are being saved. We haven't arrived at the moment of justification but continue to be created in the image of God. So the New Creation from the scriptures isn't something that is complete or finished. It is something we spend our life in Christ working on with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MystyRock]

Even the God that seems to be cruel and overbearing in the OT and a God of love in the NT didn't change. It was humans who changed. Remember that there's 400 years between the OT and NT! That's a long time in human terms. We needed a stern father figure to set us right after the fall. We had to learn who the one, true God is and that took lots of tough love. Once we began to figure it out, the same God sent us Jesus to begin the next phase of his plan for our eventual redemption.

It's all perspective. OT God gives us a glimpse of the barrier between us and Him. NT God sends His love and the way to bridge that barrier.

In the past, always heard there was nothing we could do for salvation. But, free will indicates we make a decision to accept or not. So this means our salvation depends on what we do?

 

[circuitrider]

In the past, always heard there was nothing we could do for salvation. But, free will indicates we make a decision to accept or not. So this means our salvation depends on what we do?

God does expect us to respond to his love and grace. We have free will which means we can choose to follow God or not to follow God. God doesn't force salvation on us. God gives us a choice to believe or not, to follow or not.

Part of what you may be thinking through as a new Methodist is Welseyan/Methodist/Arminian theology vs Calvinist theology. (I gather you are a former Baptist. I am too.) A lot of Baptists are Calvinists and to one degree or another don't fully believe in free will. It varies from church to church. But some would say that you are selected for salvation in advance no matter what you do (election.) United Methodists have a different perspective which includes the necessity for us to respond to God's grace.

Blessings,
Circuit Rider

 

[GraceSeeker]

There is always more to discover about God than we can ever fully take in. So, I think that while the issue you speak of may make this change in information appear like a dramatic step (and I understand that for you, emotionally, it really has been). At the same time, it is also normative. We don't, or I would think at least shouldn't, have the faith of a childhood as an adult. Oh, I know that we come to Jesus still with childlike faith, meaning that we are ready to receive him without any preconditions attached. But, we are also to grow from being babies drinking spiritual milk, to adults who can take in more solid foods as we mature in Christ. And sometimes that means we actually learn new content with regard to our faith, especially if early on we happened upon a visual image of God that doesn't work for us as adults.

Personally, I think that your original image that you adopted as a child was not the best image to present to a child. Your former teachers should perhaps have millstones tied around their necks for presenting a wrath-filled God. (Don't you love the irony of that concept.) But fortunately for them, I think that Jesus was using hyperbole when he told that story (Matthew 18:6 & Luke 17:2).

 

[Maid Marie]

Have a few questions about New Creation. Ref 1 Cor 5:17 - "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"

We are changed at the point of our salvation. Hypothetically, what if someone is saved as a child and then years later suddenly experiences a change in perspective and discovers what they previously believed was not quite the entire picture?

Now, Bible verses have new and different meanings. God is now not viewed as a vengeful, overbearing God; but a loving God who seeks us and wants us.

Was the initial decision not real or was it not complete?

I would say not complete. I was saved as a child [in fact, so young that I can't recall a time in which I did not believe]. As an adult I had a lot of changes in perspective regarding God, salvation, the whole nine yards.

We were given something incomplete as children and with what little we were given we accepted Jesus. Thankfully, God kept revealing himself to us so that we could have a more complete picture. The best part is that there is more to come. If we ever are at the point where we believe we have the complete picture of God then something is wrong.

For me personally, my issue has been twofold. One is that my SS teachers and the preachers I heard had imperfect theology. And the other is that most of them had little understanding of educational psychology. I was hearing things that a child, with a child's concrete understanding and learning ability, just couldn't process. A lot of my spiritual "maturing" the last 8 years has really been a case of recognizing the load of guilt that these people put on a child that only an adult could relate to or understand.

 

[circuitrider]

I like what Maid Marie says above. There is a bit of a problem with the terminology we use in English sometimes for salvation. We used the word "saved" as if it is a one time in the past experience. But in the scriptures the words for salvation really are talking about not just a past reality but an ongoing process. I have been saved, am being saved, and will be saved.

Over the years I've had some big "ah ha" kind of moments with God where I feel like God took me to the next step of faith. One was my first experience of salvation as a young person, another was when I received a call to ministry, another was at an Emmaus Walk Retreat, still another was when I felt led to make a major change in my spiritual direction by changing churches/denominations.

 

[BryanW92]

I like what Maid Marie says above. There is a bit of a problem with the terminology we use in English sometimes for salvation. We used the word "saved" as if it is a one time in the past experience. But in the scriptures the words for salvation really are talking about not just a past reality but an ongoing process. I have been saved, am being saved, and will be saved.

Over the years I've had some big "ah ha" kind of moments with God where I feel like God took me to the next step of faith. One was my first experience of salvation as a young person, another was when I received a call to ministry, another was at an Emmaus Walk Retreat, still another was when I felt led to make a major change in my spiritual direction by changing churches/denominations.

My Emmaus Walk was a big "a ha" moment for me too.

 

[MystyRock]

I would say not complete. I was saved as a child [in fact, so young that I can't recall a time in which I did not believe]. As an adult I had a lot of changes in perspective regarding God, salvation, the whole nine yards.

We were given something incomplete as children and with what little we were given we accepted Jesus. Thankfully, God kept revealing himself to us so that we could have a more complete picture. The best part is that there is more to come. If we ever are at the point where we believe we have the complete picture of God then something is wrong.

For me personally, my issue has been twofold. One is that my SS teachers and the preachers I heard had imperfect theology. And the other is that most of them had little understanding of educational psychology. I was hearing things that a child, with a child's concrete understanding and learning ability, just couldn't process. A lot of my spiritual "maturing" the last 8 years has really been a case of recognizing the load of guilt that these people put on a child that only an adult could relate to or understand.

My major obstacle was I still thought what I was taught at an early age was completely correct. When challenged on my beliefs, I thought it would be a fun experiment. It quickly stopped being fun as I realized some of the things I believed were questionable.

I have now learned (1) it is OK to ask questions. This had been strongly discouraged - questioning meant you doubted and that was evil. And (2) it is OK to discuss beliefs with a Methodist (also discouraged - didn't associate much with others outside our denomination).

Now I have a choice. I can regret my past and blame others or I can focus on today and look forward to tomorrow. My past will always be with me; I choose to view it as how far I've come.

Still uncovering weird things about my past beliefs, so I haven't run out of questions yet. Making progress.

 

[GraceSeeker]

My major obstacle was I still thought what I was taught at an early age was completely correct. When challenged on my beliefs, I thought it would be a fun experiment. It quickly stopped being fun as I realized some of the things I believed were questionable.

I have now learned (1) it is OK to ask questions. This had been strongly discouraged - questioning meant you doubted and that was evil. And (2) it is OK to discuss beliefs with a Methodist (also discouraged - didn't associate much with others outside our denomination).

Now I have a choice. I can regret my past and blame others or I can focus on today and look forward to tomorrow. My past will always be with me; I choose to view it as how far I've come.

Still uncovering weird things about my past beliefs, so I haven't run out of questions yet. Making progress.

You have learned well, Grasshopper.

 

[Maid Marie]

I have now learned (1) it is OK to ask questions. This had been strongly discouraged - questioning meant you doubted and that was evil. And (2) it is OK to discuss beliefs with a Methodist (also discouraged - didn't associate much with others outside our denomination).

You've got my issue - although having Methodist fam and my mother growing up EUB [predecessor to today's UMC], I didn't buy any anti-Methodist garbage that came at me. But I do recall hearing over and over from well meaning but clueless SS teachers, the pastor's wife and some adults in the community that those RC, Lutherans, Pentecostals and everyone else was just...you know...not one of US, thus can they really be saved? God had to show me whom he really considered one of HIS and his criteria was totally different.

And my SS teachers felt very intimidated by all my questions. They really put me down for having a heart that had "faith but [sought] understanding". It wasn't until a year and a half ago that God healed me of that by a guy's witness in my Philosophy & Christian Ethics class.

 

[circuitrider]

It is a shame that some churches teach kids that if they have real questions they better bite their tongue rather than make waves. But I'v been there and seen it.

 

[GraceSeeker]

It's not just churches that teach that. Plenty of Christians think that to ask a question is to doubt, and to doubt is to lack faith. Neither of those original statements is true by the way. But the really big lie is when they turn it into a syllogism and conclude that to ask a question is to lack faith. Only the devil could create such a convoluted way of thinking. But I had good, Christian friends in college who told me exactly that. I was fortunate to be raised by a father who actually encouraged me to ask questions, in addition he was a pastor as well.

 

[Maid Marie]

It's not just churches that teach that. Plenty of Christians think that to ask a question is to doubt, and to doubt is to lack faith. Neither of those original statements is true by the way. But the really big lie is when they turn it into a syllogism and conclude that to ask a question is to lack faith. Only the devil could create such a convoluted way of thinking. But I had good, Christian friends in college who told me exactly that. I was fortunate to be raised by a father who actually encouraged me to ask questions, in addition he was a pastor as well.

And to lack faith is to SIN!!!! that's what one in particular told me. I was SINNING cuz I had any kind of question and she threw in the verse from James about doubting God. Sigh....the burdens that we put on people.

 

[Theodor1]

I was hearing things that a child, with a child's concrete understanding and learning ability, just couldn't process. A lot of my spiritual "maturing" the last 8 years has really been a case of recognizing the load of guilt that these people put on a child that only an adult could relate to or understand.

Actually it is the adult that has to become like a child to understand.

 

[circuitrider]

Actually it is the adult that has to become like a child to understand.

If by that you mean that children question everything, I'd agree. If by that you mean we need to be naive and not ask questions and just accept what we are told, I'd disagree.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Actually it is the adult that has to become like a child to understand.

Can you explain what you mean? I'll withhold deciding whether I can agree or not till you clarify.