New Covenant Gift of Prophecy

[ViaCrucis]

The twelve are obviously in a different position. calling , office or how ever you want to describe it. All of the rest and there many more in scripture are still called Apostles. Lets no not mix up the two. There will be no more like the twelve, but that does not negate the fact that there were others and are others and scripture is clear that office , calling , position or whatever you want to call it is still in effect and will be until Jesus returns.

There were more than twelve apostles, that is true. But we don't have any examples of new apostles after the first generation of believers. Tradition recounts that St. John the Apostle died of old age near the end of the first century. We don't have apostles after that, instead the apostles themselves left us with pastors--bishops and presbyters--to continue their work.

If there were supposed to be more apostles--that apostle was a special "office" within the Church--then we'd see examples of this. But we don't. We don't have any examples of apostles after the death of the last apostle, John.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

IMO your idea of a prophet is far too general. If it is just simply one who preaches the word, why are there different offices? Apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher. All of these proclaims the word of God. Not to mention the doctrinal problem many have with women preaching the Word, while scripture clearly speaks of prophetesses. Then we have the problem of interpreting and judging prophetic statements. Unless a NT prophet gives an exact date for the prophecy we may be too hasty to judge it false . It just may not happen in our life time or in a time frame we think it should. Many OT prophecies did not come true in the lifetime of the prophet. This subject is far more complicated than just saying anyone who preaches the Word is a prophet.

I don't see any mention of "different offices".

A pastor isn't a different "office" than an evangelist. Which is why Paul in his letters to Timothy (a pastor) he writes to Timothy to perform his duty as an evangelist (2 Timothy 4:5).

The Apostles left us with the singular ministry of the Gospel, and for that work ordained and had installed pastors--bishops and presbyters--to oversee and care over the flock of Christ. So, for example, Peter and Paul left charge of their work in Antioch to Evodius, though Evodius died a martyr's death under Nero, and Ignatius took the chair of Antioch afterward. The same Ignatius who wrote the seven letters under his name. When Peter went to Rome, it was first to Linus and then to Clement that Peter's chair in Rome was occupied.

That's how the apostles themselves set things up. They left pastors to watch over the flock.

It's what we see both biblically and historically.

The idea that there are different "offices" is a wholly modern idea that has no basis in the historic practice of the Christian Church or in how Scripture is interpreted.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doran]

I don't see any mention of "different offices".

A pastor isn't a different "office" than an evangelist. Which is why Paul in his letters to Timothy (a pastor) he writes to Timothy to perform his duty as an evangelist (2 Timothy 4:5).

The Apostles left us with the singular ministry of the Gospel, and for that work ordained and had installed pastors--bishops and presbyters--to oversee and care over the flock of Christ. So, for example, Peter and Paul left charge of their work in Antioch to Evodius, though Evodius died a martyr's death under Nero, and Ignatius took the chair of Antioch afterward. The same Ignatius who wrote the seven letters under his name. When Peter went to Rome, it was first to Linus and then to Clement that Peter's chair in Rome was occupied.

That's how the apostles themselves set things up. They left pastors to watch over the flock.

It's what we see both biblically and historically.

The idea that there are different "offices" is a wholly modern idea that has no basis in the historic practice of the Christian Church or in how Scripture is interpreted.

-CryptoLutheran

Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, etc. are NOT offices. They are sovereign gifts of God given to his New Covenant Church. And there MUST be real differences between them since they are all listed as separate and distinct gifts in the NT. (Or was the Holy Spirit just being redundant?) There are NO longer any offices in this New Covenant age, since Christ himself fulfills all three of the OT offices and the NT office of Apostle, as well.

 

[BobRyan]

Pastors, Prophets, Evangelists, etc. are NOT offices. They are sovereign gifts of God given to his New Covenant Church. And there MUST be real differences between them since they are all listed as separate and distinct gifts in the NT.

True but they are also offices/roles that God placed in the church - in that they show a specific ministry for a single individual.

As 1Cor 12 says all are not Evangelists, all are not prophets.

 

[Doran]

True but they are also offices/roles that God placed in the church - in that they show a specific ministry for a single individual.

As 1Cor 12 says all are not Evangelists, all are not prophets.

You can supply chapter and verse proof of your claim about "offices/roles"? My bible says they're gifts.

 

[BobRyan]

You can supply chapter and verse proof of your claim about "offices/roles"? My bible says they're gifts.

ok

28 And God has appointed these in the church:
first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
after that miracles,
then gifts of healings,
helps,
administrations,
varieties of tongues.

29 Are all apostles?
Are all prophets?
Are all teachers?
Are all workers of miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healings?
Do all speak with tongues?
Do all interpret?

first, second, third and "after that"... can only work if it is an appointed office.

It does not make sense to say something like "first teeth, then fingers, then toes"
It does not make sense to say "first mathematicians, then plumbers, then sculptors"

So then in Acts 15 we "expect" that when all the church offices meet to decide something the Apostles lead the meeting.

What we would not expect is that those who "speak in tongues" are the ones deciding the matter and all the Apostles, Pastors etc simply listen for what the decision is

 

[Postvieww]

I don't see any mention of "different offices".

Ephesians 3:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Then please explain what you think the above passage means.

 

[Postvieww]

There are NO longer any offices in this New Covenant age, since Christ himself fulfills all three of the OT offices and the NT office of Apostle, as well.

Christ is the head of the church , over the Apostles , Prophets , Pastors , teachers and evangelists. Call them what you will but these functions are still within the church!

 

[Doran]

ok

28 And God has appointed these in the church:
first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
after that miracles,
then gifts of healings,
helps,
administrations,
varieties of tongues.

29 Are all apostles?
Are all prophets?
Are all teachers?
Are all workers of miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healings?
Do all speak with tongues?
Do all interpret?

first, second, third and "after that"... can only work if it is an appointed office.

It does not make sense to say something like "first teeth, then fingers, then toes"
It does not make sense to say "first mathematicians, then plumbers, then sculptors"

So then in Acts 15 we "expect" that when all the church offices meet to decide something the Apostles lead the meeting.

What we would not expect is that those who "speak in tongues" are the ones deciding the matter and all the Apostles, Pastors etc simply listen for what the decision is

You're alluding to 1Corinthians 12. What about v. 31 that characterizes those appointments as gifts? What you don't seem to understand is that the office of Apostleship was as temporary as were the three OT offices because Christ Himself fulfills all those offices. We know the office of Apostleship was temporary because no one today can meet the qualifications for that office that Peter set forth in Acts 1. Also, the three Old Covenant offices were never considered to be gifts. They were indeed divinely-ordained offices. But when we come to the NT, we see these appointments always characterized as GIFTS, not offices.

 

[Postvieww]

You're alluding to 1Corinthians 12. What about v. 31 that characterizes those appointments as gifts? What you don't seem to understand is that the office of Apostleship was as temporary as were the three OT offices because Christ Himself fulfills all those offices. We know the office of Apostleship was temporary because no one today can meet the qualifications for that office that Peter set forth in Acts 1. Also, the three Old Covenant offices were never considered to be gifts. They were indeed divinely-ordained offices. But when we come to the NT, we see these appointments always characterized as GIFTS, not offices.

You keep confusing the twelve apostles with the many other apostles mentioned in the NT those qualifications you keep referring to apply to the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. There will be no more of those, but there are other Apostles.No scripture says they were done away with , that is an invention of man.

 

[Doran]

You keep confusing the twelve apostles with the many other apostles mentioned in the NT those qualifications you keep referring to apply to the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. There will be no more of those, but there are other Apostles.No scripture says they were done away with , that is an invention of man.

No, days ago I conceded that there are OTHER types of apostles. Maybe if you slow down and actually read my posts with the intentions of understanding what I'm writing, you could save us both a lot of time. I said as clear as I could that ALL Christians are "apostles" in the general sense of what "apostle" means which is "sent one", "messenger", "ambassador" (2Cor 5:20; Eph 6:20). Conversely, The "12 Apostles of the Lamb" were the OFFICE of Apostleship, whereas the "apostles" in today's church do not hold such an office. Theirs is a gift given by the Holy Spirit. Now, let's take these two thoughts of "office" and "gifts" one more step to their logical conclusion.

The four divinely appointed offices of Prophet, Priest and King in the OT and of Apostle in the NT never pass away because they all find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ. Therefore, those offices are eternal. Conversely, the gifts of the Holy Spirit to his Church in this New Covenant dispensation are temporary, lasting only to the end of this age (1Cor 13: 8-9). This is how we know what is a divinely-mandated office and what is a gift and how to distinguish between the two. The four offices are forever; whereas the gifts are not.

 

[Postvieww]

I said as clear as I could that ALL Christians are "apostles" in the general sense of what "apostle" means which is "sent one", "messenger", "ambassador" (2Cor 5:20; Eph 6:20).

I read your post and you are still confusing the matter. The two scriptures you posted do not make every lay person an apostle in the 1 Corinthians 12 sense, you have dumbed it down to fit your narrative. Paul even ask are all apostles, implying that all are not called to be apostles. My point is your definition of apostle does not fit with the rest of scripture on the matter.

 

[Doran]

I read your post and you are still confusing the matter. The two scriptures you posted do not make every lay person an apostle in the 1 Corinthians 12 sense, you have dumbed it down to fit your narrative. Paul even ask are all apostles, implying that all are not called to be apostles. My point is your definition of apostle does not fit with the rest of scripture on the matter.

Correct. ALL are NOT apostles in the sense that all have not been given the specific gift. But on the other hand, all ARE apostles because all of us are ambassadors of Christ in one sense or another. So, it's just another paradox -- of which scripture abounds in such. It's just like all of us have not been gifted with Evangelism; yet, even so what kind of Christians would be if we fail to exploit a great opportunity to share the gospel with some lost soul? And so it is with all the other gifts, as well.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ephesians 3:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Then please explain what you think the above passage means.

The ministry of which the foundations were laid in the beginning through the work of the apostles and prophets, and through the proclamation of the Gospel, in the shepherding of the Faithful, and the instruction, correction, and rebuke through faithful teaching; what was established in the beginning, is continuing, through the singular work of ministry, for the edification of the whole Body, the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You keep confusing the twelve apostles with the many other apostles mentioned in the NT those qualifications you keep referring to apply to the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. There will be no more of those, but there are other Apostles.No scripture says they were done away with , that is an invention of man.

Then where are they?

This reminds me of many debates I've had with Mormons whose claims are that the "true church" needs to have a prophet and a quorum of twelve apostles, and the only way they can get around this problem of history (we don't have a "prophet" or a "quorum of twelve" historically), the Mormon argument is simply to claim the Church fell to pieces immediately, and thus needed to be restored under Joseph Smith Jr. Of course, in saying that, they make Jesus a liar, who said not even the gates of Hades would prevail against His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hawkins]

It is more or less tied to how a true is conveyed through humans.

Take our daily news as an example. Reporters and journalist first approach the eyewitnesses, alternatively reporters/journalists themselves can be eyewitnesses. Then the testimonies written down are examined and authenticated by an authority. It is either by the media with credibility or by a local government. Then the testimonies are broadcast through a credible media with a scope of coverage in accordance to the nature of the testimonies/stories/news. A car incident may remain a local news while a pandemic may become international.

Similarly, OT prophets are eyewitnesses of God. Their testimonies are written down either by the "reporters/journalists" who are the Jewish writers or by the prophets themselves. Their testimonies are examined and authenticated by an authority who is God's chosen people Israel, in the form of its government or the religion Judaism or the leader of them. Started from King Hezekiah and finally edited by Ezra, all are acting as an authority to authenticate the news/stories/testimonies to be preached/"broadcast" at the end. OT era is basically the preparation of news to be broadcast in the NT era with a scope of coverage of all mankind.

OT prophets with prophecies to a certain extent, is for the authority Israel to reckon whether a claim/a testimony from an eyewitness is actually from God (under the guidance and direction from God), as all Scripture is God breached, not only its crafting but also its authentication. Then the final round of testimonies are from the eyewitnesses we today called the apostles. Then the news/stories/testimonies which being commonly referred to as the Gospel are preached (or broadcast) to all mankind with the explicit command that the gospel needs to be preached to all nations as a witness before Jesus Christ's second coming. The scope of coverage is very well defined. It is human-facing, very much unlike all other religions with a false god.

Humans lack the ability to tell a future or to break our physics laws to perform a miracle. God performs such in front of the prophets to identify Himself as God (not a human at least). He also enables the prophets to fore-tell and to perform miracles in front of Israel such that God's chosen people as an authority can reckon that the prophets are from God, then for the prophets' testimonies to be written and kept.

In NT era then, it enters the stage of "broadcasting" which is to preach the news (i.e., the gospel) with an explicit scope of coverage of all mankind. No other religion is with such a coverage made so explicit, as the false gods never know how a truth shall convey among humans. At the same time fore-telling is no longer crucial. It is a stage for humans to believe to be saved, it's not the stage for an authority to reckon and write. The authority now is our Church which bears the responsibility to reckon the Canon which is done, and to prevent anyone from adding anything arbitrarily.

The meaning of prophesying has also changed alongside. It's more on preaching and ministering. Fore-telling now is no longer a sole gift of a prophet. Everyone may have a chance to be granted with the gift, as said,

Acts 2:17 (NIV):
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

That said. Apostle is a ranking given to those chosen eyewitnesses who are responsible for the crafting of NT, and the first lineage of preaching the gospel including the establishment of the new authority which is our Church when Judaism failed to function. Apostles include those direct eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ when He's still on earth. They are thus not called supernaturally as other OT prophets. Apostles also include someone such as Paul who are called supernaturally the same as other OT prophets when Jesus is no long a human on earth. What being in common is that they are all the chosen eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ, and with Jesus Christ very well identified and declared Himself in front of them either in an earthly manner or by supernatural means, or both.

So in today's world, if you are an apostle or a prophet, at least you should have an account of supernatural encounter with Jesus Christ, just as apostle Paul did. It's not the same as how the titles are given to the pastors inside a church. Titles given inside a church are not the same as the formal Office of apostles and prophets designated by Jesus Christ and God.

 

[Hawkins]

The true author of the Bible is God Himself. So it boils down to how humans are informed of the fulfillment of a prophecy, as only God knows, as a matter of timing the past, now and future, how a prophecy comes to pass precisely. Are you close enough to get to the information such as whether a prothecy has been deemed as fulfilled or not yet and will only be fulfilled in the ages to come? I don't trust that today's humans are that close to such a sin-imcompatible God. So more likely you over-estimated yourself, your distance to God to be more specific, when you say that something is not fulfilled as said.

Moreover, the Bible itself somehow behaves as follows,

Matthew 13:12 (NIV):
Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

So you are in a kind of danger when you see that some prophecies are not fulfilled as said. Try to make sure that you do not fall into the category of "whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them". It doesn't sound good for you in terms of your faith. Better doubt yourself instead of the Bible.

 

[Postvieww]

Then where are they?

This reminds me of many debates I've had with Mormons whose claims are that the "true church" needs to have a prophet and a quorum of twelve apostles, and the only way they can get around this problem of history (we don't have a "prophet" or a "quorum of twelve" historically), the Mormon argument is simply to claim the Church fell to pieces immediately, and thus needed to be restored under Joseph Smith Jr. Of course, in saying that, they make Jesus a liar, who said not even the gates of Hades would prevail against His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

I would say they are in congregations that have not succumbed to denominational heresy. Just look at what so called church leaders have removed from scripture and churches. Miracles, healings, gifts , prophets , apostles , the Holy Spirit or just anything supernatural. God is a supernatural God He doesn’t change, He didn’t stop performing miracles for His children and He is not bound by the doctrines of men who try to change scripture. If a church doesn’t want manifestations of the Spirit there is a pretty good chance the will not be any. The Morman comparison was off base IMO.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I would say they are in congregations that have not succumbed to denominational heresy. Just look at what so called church leaders have removed from scripture and churches. Miracles, healings, gifts , prophets , apostles , the Holy Spirit or just anything supernatural.

Well, there certainly aren't any apostles in my church. But we haven't removed anything that is in Scripture. God is still God, and He will work miracles, healing, and anything He so wishes to accomplish as is according to His good will. The Holy Spirit is very much present at my church. He is right there, in the inspired word of Holy Spirit, He is right there in the faithful preaching of the Gospel which gives and creates faith, He is right there in the Holy Eucharist where we receive the very flesh and blood of Jesus Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine. He is there as we pray, there as we confess our sins, there as our sins are declared forgiven in Holy Absolution.

And my church isn't unique in that. There are churches all around the world, in a multitude of denominations and theological traditions, where everything I've just said is true.

If you want me to believe that there are apostles, I'm going to need something better than your say-so.

And I'm not just talking about right now. Where were the apostles of two hundred years ago? Five hundred years ago? A thousand years ago? How about 1,500 years ago? How about 1,900 years ago?

After John died, where were these new apostles? Where were they? That question still needs to be answered.

God is a supernatural God He doesn’t change, He didn’t stop performing miracles for His children and He is not bound by the doctrines of men who try to change scripture. If a church doesn’t want manifestations of the Spirit there is a pretty good chance the will not be any. The Morman comparison was off base IMO.

If the comparison is off base, I certainly apologize.

So can I safely assume that you don't believe the Church went off the rails and has needed to be restored through modern day apostles and/or prophets?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Postvieww]

After John died, where were these new apostles? Where were they? That question still needs to be answered.

Are we following Ephesians 4:11?

I haven't posted in quite some time and would appreciate links to any threads where this has already been discussed. Are we following Ephesians 4:11? The gifts listed are 1) Apostle, 2) Prophet, 3) Evangelist, 4) Pastor, 5) Teacher. I believe most of the power and money in the modern church...

www.christianforums.com

Go to above thread and see post #14