new birth

[kimmiemae]

I was wondering what you all thought "born again" means in the Lutheran Church. I attend the AFLC.

Sometimes I ask myself this question. I accepted Jesus as Savior when I was 20 and I believe I was born again at that point. I accepted His Lordship when I was 36 and felt soooo different at that point in my life. All the skeletons came out and I was free. Then I felt so fulfilled.

When were you "born again"?

 

[AngelusSax]

As Lutherans, we believe we are born again in the waters of baptism, though it is not water that does the work, but the Word of God with the water that marks us as children of Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit forever.

To my knowledge, and my belief, that is not the ONLY way a person can be born again. We all have our "aha!" moments, wherein some would say that is when we were "actually" born again, but I believe those moments are only re-affirmations of our already-born-again status.

And, as important as we think baptism is, it is belief that is the main thing. We believe that faith itself is a gift from God, bestowed in baptism (as well as various other ways). If one is baptized, but runs away from faith and from the grace of God as they grow older, then baptism will not, in and of itself, guarantee one's entrance into the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God.

 

[Lost Squirrel]

We all have our "aha!" moments, wherein some would say that is when we were "actually" born again, but I believe those moments are only re-affirmations of our already-born-again status.

Hit the nail on the head! We are indeed renewed and we reinvent ourselved in faith as we make new discoveries, but that "birth" only happened once.

 

[lux et lex]

Yep, I have to agree with what he already said so perfectly!

 

[Bryne]

What about those who come to faith prior to baptism? Are they not born again at that point?

 

[kimmiemae]

What about those who come to faith prior to baptism? Are they not born again at that point?

Well, I came to faith as an adult. I was born again before baptism. I guess that was the baptism of fire that John the Baptist spoke of when he referred to Jesus being the One that would baptize with fire. "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." Matt 3:11

About a month later I was water Baptized. There is a similar story in 1 or 2 Acts 10:4."Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

Thanks for your replies!

 

[RedTulipMom]

What about those who come to faith prior to baptism? Are they not born again at that point?

Only God can give someone faith. It's true that some come to faith and then get baptized, even in the NT there are stories like that. Coming to faith and being born again aren't the same thing. the bible says to "be baptized for the remission of sins" It also says we "must be born of water and of the Spirit". So according to the bible the point that they are "born again" is the point of their baptism, whether their "faith" comes before or after it really don't matter, as God gives them faith.

 

[Bryne]

Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." - John 3:3

So, if an adult comes to faith, is on his way to church to be baptized, but gets killed in a car accident on the way, does that mean that he cannot see the kingdom of God because he wasn't baptized?

 

[RedTulipMom]

i doubt it, since God is a God of mercy and grace and love. We want to make up to many technical "rules" i think. In the Catholic church there is what is called "baptism of desire", its like when you intend on being baptized but don't quite make it (like getting hit by a bus a week before your baptism). I would rather not try to explain it away, its in God's hands, i trust him.

 

[Franny50]

What about people converting to Lutheranism? By virtual of the fact that they are renewing their faith,are they born again?

 

[AngelusSax]

What about people converting to Lutheranism? By virtual of the fact that they are renewing their faith,are they born again?

Being born again happens once. Any renewals of faith after that are strengthening of conviction, or coming back to an awareness of being one of God's children who have been born again by the Spirit.
(Just my thoughts, it might be official Lutheran teaching or close to it, or not... I don't know... but I do know that baptism one in the name of the Triune God, regardless of denomination, is recognized as valid in Lutheran churches as being that One Baptism).

 

[Bryne]

...but I do know that baptism one in the name of the Triune God, regardless of denomination, is recognized as valid in Lutheran churches as being that One Baptism).

A bit of a tangent...but what about LDS baptism. It is done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...but they don't believe that denotes the Triune God. Would ELCA churches accept LDS baptism? My church does not, and Mormons who become Lutheran do need to be baptized.

But...in general, I would agree with your statement in regards to being born again.

 

[lux et lex]

Yeah, ELCA would offer a Christian baptism to former LDS folks.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

What about people converting to Lutheranism? By virtual of the fact that they are renewing their faith,are they born again?

New birth happens primarily in baptism. This language is first and foremost tied to it both in Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus but also in Paul's use of the language in Titus.

However, Lutherans do not teach justification ex opera operato. That is, simply by the work it is done. Baptism is so closely tied because it is one of the places God promises his Spirit to work in us. And because it is tied to the beginning of our faith walk in Christ.
However, it is the Holy Spirit that ultimately brings new birth. So when we talk about new birth, we always talk about it in the context in which God's Spirit drives us to new faith. For many this happens in baptism (one of the reasons we baptize infants, because as Peter says in Acts 2, the promise of forgiveness and the Spirit is for our children). So when you say converting to Lutheranism, I would be hesitant to simply say yep they are born again. I would say rebirth or birth from above happens the first time the promised Spirit comes. So if you were baptized an infant in the Catholic church that is when you were reborn because the baptism is true and the promise is certain. The renewal of faith and the deepening of it as one turns to Lutheranism would probably more appropriately be the process of living into that rebirth. As Luther says in his catechism on Baptism, that the Christian life is about daily dying to sin in baptism and rising to new life.
So if you want born again in the sense of a one time born again, that is whenever the Spirit first struck the promised faith into you (even if you left that faith, and yes, infants can have faith). If you talk about it in the sense of renewal, then every day we are born anew because every day the Christian should die to the flesh and let the old Adam be drowned in baptism. Yet every day they shall rise to new life, every day be renewed in the Lord and deeper in faith and discipleship. Every time we stray from faith and sin then are drawn back into a life of repentance and newness is a rebirth. And that happens whether you are just becoming Lutheran or have been raised one.
So I guess it depends on how you use that terminology.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

A bit of a tangent...but what about LDS baptism. It is done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...but they don't believe that denotes the Triune God. Would ELCA churches accept LDS baptism? My church does not, and Mormons who become Lutheran do need to be baptized.

But...in general, I would agree with your statement in regards to being born again.

If it is done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it is a baptism no matter what body did it, if it is not then the baptism is not recognized because it does not follow the biblical mandate in Matthew 28 and the person would not be repabtized (since that assumes they were baptized already) but baptized in the name of the triune God, truly baptized.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." - John 3:3

So, if an adult comes to faith, is on his way to church to be baptized, but gets killed in a car accident on the way, does that mean that he cannot see the kingdom of God because he wasn't baptized?

Mark 16 reminds us both that baptism is tied deeply to our salvation "Those who believe and are baptized will be saved" but that it is not the absence of baptism but the absence of belief that condemns, "But those who do not believe will be condemned."

If you believe in Jesus, then you should run to baptism, because there we receive in a personal way the assurances of God's promises for us, so that we may cling to it more deeply, knowing God has acted on our behalf and spoken to us as personally as he did his own Son, "This is my Son", you are a child of God.

Baptism does not save, faith saves. But faith in the baptismal promise is one of the great gifts God gives us to keep us in the saving faith.
So for me if someone believes and is not baptized, my answer is "what is keeping him/her from baptism?" just like the Ethiopian Eunich. But if you are on your way to be baptized because you believe in Jesus, then no accident will separate you from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus.