New Birth

[PamC]

Why do you believe God saves you first before you can believe and not think God lets you believe from His image, though fallen, to receive salvation from being fallen? Do you think it puffs up?

 

[McWilliams]

No Pam. We believe that scripture says the Holy Spirit touches a heart and regenerates it and only then is one able to come to Christ and have an interest in spiritual things. Until the Holy Spirit regenerates a heart one remains lost. Scripture tells us this in many places. Such as:

John 6:44 NO man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.

The verse uses 'can', not 'may', telling us that we are unable to come until we are drawn.

Romans 3:10 says, in quoting Psalm 14, As it is written, There is none righteous, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one!

If one has an interest in things spiritual it is because the Holy Spirit is working in the heart. Then one should be reading scripture, praying for guidance and responding to the wonderful regeneration taking place in their heart. As they grow in grace they learn more then of the wonder of God's sovereign will in their life!
God bless you!

 

[elf_lady_9]

Why do you believe God saves you first before you can believe and not think God lets you believe from His image, though fallen, to receive salvation from being fallen? Do you think it puffs up?

if we could do the choosing, then that would mean that at least some of the credit and the glory for our salvation was ours, instead of all God's as the Bible tells us. it would mean that totally sinful, unclean human beings could choose on their own to do something righteous, which is impossible. it would also mean that some how we had the power to thwart God's will, if we chose to reject Him, but His will was indeed for everybody to be saved. and that would mean that God is not omnipotent, but the Bible makes it very clear that He is all-powerful. that's why we believe in predestination.

Bethan y

 

[PamC]

When the Father draws, doesn't He draw by doing all He can do to lead a person to Christ which some receive, whereas some do not so as not then to be saved? If God gave us the right to choose (to His good pleasure), then isn't our choosing really bestowed by God's grace first? So why can't God predestinate by foreknowing our free-choice, drawing us, for God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34) and does not program robots (please forgive me for this terminoloy as I was trying to find some words to describe my concern)? Isn't reformed calvinism then saying God is a respecter of persons?

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[McWilliams]

No Pam, whatever the Father does is always perfect and 100% successful!
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day! And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:39,40

We were chosen in Him in eternity past, predestined to believe. All people were doomed to hell. He chose to save some, all that believe on Him.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made know unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself.
Ephesians 1:1-10

The electing and predestinating are God's business. We have no way of knowing who is elected. If one is interested in spiritual things, prays and asks God to have mercy on their soul and forgive their sins usually that would suggest the Holy Spirit is working in their heart, calling them to Himself.

Being a christian is not easy, It has a high cost attached in that you are most willing to pay with sacrifices called for if that should ever be the case as wanting peace, salvation and eternal life with Christ is worth the ultimate sacrifice. He told us to strive to enter the narrow gate, that is to make certain we know Him, by prayer and the reading of His word. Read the gospel of John over several times and ask Him to guide you!

As to your last question Paul answers that is the 9th chapter of Romans.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou will say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
May but, O man, who are thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Romans 9:18-21
Read that chapter.

Reformed Calvinism is the belief that our God is totally sovereign over His world and all that is in it. He not only owns but rules, manages and controls the most miniscule detail! Psalm 24:1
This in no way relieves us of our responsibility and accountability! He did not by foreknowing who would choose Him then choose them. No, we choose Him because He chose is before the world began! He is and was and will be before all things!

Seek me and ye shall find me, when you search for me with all your heart! Jeremiah 29:13
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6

 

[PamC]

I know I am elected, since God told me so. I did not know this before I was saved and entered into the new creation. Hasn't He told you the same? Why don't you believe God is all-knowing to foresee who chooses Him to give His grace to? Why can't God choose before the foundations of the world by predestinating by foreknowing our free-choice? Surely God can do this can't He, for He would want to walk with those who receive Him, who did not resist His grace in His conditional election of an unlimited atonement.

 

[elf_lady_9]

When the Father draws, doesn't He draw by doing all He can do to lead a person to Christ which some receive, whereas some do not so as not then to be saved? If God gave us the right to choose (to His good pleasure), then isn't our choosing really bestowed by God's grace first? So why can't God predestinate by foreknowing our free-choice, drawing us, for God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34) and does not program robots (please forgive me for this terminoloy as I was trying to find some words to describe my concern)? Isn't reformed calvinism then saying God is a respecter of persons?

Looking forward to your reply.

i'm not quite sure what you mean about the whole respecter of persons thing. i'll have to read that Bible verse again. but i do understand the programing robots question. don't worry about using that terminology, lots of non-Calvinists have that question and its very natural, i think. we don't believe that we're God's robots, but neither do we believe that human beings have a free will, at least not in the same way most other Protestants do. we are not robots to God, we are robots(or, as the Bible describes it, slaves) to Sin. in the beginning of the Universe, God did give the first humans, Adam and Eve, a free will. they had a choice, they could decide either to obey God or disobey Him. they choose to disobey, and the consequence of that disobedience was that every human being would be a sinner. our free will is tainted by sin, so we can't make any good choices. including the choice to accept Christ. we can only make the choice to accept Christ if God allows us too; if He chooses to bestow His grace upon us and give us faith. that's why predestination isn't God forseeing ahead of time who will choose Him and who won't; because, left on our own, no one would choose Him. and God isn't making us His robots when He chooses us, He is merely freeing us from the bonds of sin.

Bethany

 

[McWilliams]

Well, I could well ask you, why do you want God to do His business this way or that way?
It is up to us to submit to His will, not the other way round!
It is He that is sovereign! Man has always and eternally tried to do it his way. Wont work. We will submit to God, either as Savior and Lord or in the last days as ruler and King! He is our all, our all in all!
God can and will complete His decree, which He formed before the foundation of the world. It is done. It will come to pass, every little jot and tittle will be fullfilled as He declared in His word and nothing will escape His will.
God is merciful, that is He does not give us what we deserve, hell!!
God is full of grace, that is He bestows on us what we are most totally undeserving of, eternal life!

What could be better? God is good! Soli deo gloria!!

His election is unconditional, in that we did nothing to get elected! It is all His doing!
Not by any works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5

 

[elf_lady_9]

I know I am elected, since God told me so. I did not know this before I was saved and entered into the new creation. Hasn't He told you the same? Why don't you believe God is all-knowing to foresee who chooses Him to give His grace to? Why can't God choose before the foundations of the world by predestinating by foreknowing our free-choice? Surely God can do this can't He, for He would want to walk with those who receive Him, who did not resist His grace in His conditional election of an unlimited atonement.

God is all knowing and can forsee who would choose Him and who won't. but what He sees is not good. because all humans are unclean sinners who, left on our own, would choose to reject God every single time. we don't have a free choice, because we are all in bondage to sin. but rather than let us all burn in Hell, which would have been a just punishment for our horrible sin, God chose to bestow his saving grace on some of us. just the fact that He saves any of us at all is a testimony to His wonderful love and mercy.

Bethany

 

[PamC]

If God did not grace us with the choice to come to the cross, then why does He urge everyone to come to the cross? If His election is not conditional then doesn't that makes robots causing passivity to be controlled by evil entry doesn't it? Since God is no respecter of persons this means He gives favor to noone so the same grace is given to all of us in His image to have the free-choice to choose or not to choose; and in all cases none can choose by the flesh, but the choice is afforded in His image which is not the flesh. Would you say that His image is the flesh that can't come to the cross to receive His grace?

 

[McWilliams]

Pam, man does make a choice. He makes a choice with the nature he has to make one with, which is bad. He cannot choose good! He is not able to do so and never seeks God on his own.
Only after the Holy Spirit regenerates a heart is one able to make a choice in keeping with his new nature that he has just received. Then and only then can he seek for God and choose to follow Him.
There is common grace, which everyone gets, such a sunshine, enjoying their family, doing a good deed for someone, That is no way has anything to to with their eternity. That saving grace is given when their heart is regenerated.
You cannot do this for anyone else. You cannot give it to someone. Each of us must respond to the call in our heart and follow Him as He calls us.
You can pray for others, tell them about the gospel but in the long run it is God's design. His ways are perfect!
Even after we are saved we continue at times to sin as we retain our old nature. We do not live a lifestyle of sin and seek only to please our new master!

 

[PamC]

Making a choice with the fallen nature is bad. But is it so bad to make a choice from God's image? How can you choose God if you have to be saved first? God says to choose Him not in vain. This then would not be God's salvation to all that would receive Him, but require robots, and God is greater than that to have to create robots don't you think? Does God want to walk with robots?

 

[elf_lady_9]

Making a choice with the fallen nature is bad. But is it so bad to make a choice from God's image? How can you choose God if you have to be saved first? God says to choose Him not in vain. This then would not be God's salvation to all that would receive Him, but require robots, and God is greater than that to have to create robots don't you think? Does God want to walk with robots?

like McWilliams said, we can't make a good choice. it is impossible. and to make a choice from God's image, as you say, would be a good choice.
imagine that you are a slave to a horrible, cruel master, who beats you and feeds you a couple measly crusts of bread a day. he forces you to work during the day and at night keeps you locked up in a dark, dank, impossible to escape from prison. could you, the slave, chose to eat a three course meal?? could you chose to just walk out of the door one night and be free? no, of course not, it's not even an option. the only hope of escape you have is if some kind person comes along and buys you and gives you your freedom. then you can walk out the door of the prison and go eat a three course meal. but not until then. that is the same way it is with sin. Sin is an impenetrable prison, a harsh cruel master, and Jesus is the only one who can set you free. it is literally impossible for us to do it on our own.

and to answer your other questions in keeping with the analogy, if you were the slave who was suddenly set free, would you be complaining that it's not fair because you didn't do it by yourself, so therefore you're just a robot? i don't think so. God doesn't want to walk with robots, He wants to walk with his adopted children, the ex-slaves who will be eternally grateful to Him for freeing them from their bondage when they were helpless to rescue themselves.

 

[PamC]

I made a good choice God longs we all make, and you can too, though not by the flesh. You are made in God's image too to believe and receive. Though man is quite limited, there is one thing he can do, that is come to the cross to receive salvation. We are quite limited because we are fallen, not totally deprave, otherwise none could be saved by faith could they? No man can be grateful to God for making him a robot for salvation or for making people for hell with no opportunity for salvation. An evil man could though perhaps. Why then believe God is so vain to ask you to come to the cross, if He saves you before you can believe? Is God so vain? This is my heartfelt question to you.

 

[edie19]

Scripture is clear that salvation is 100% God and 0% man. The theologic term for that is monergism (Monergism: The view that the Holy Spirit is the only agent who effects regeneration of Christians. It is on contrast with synergism, the view that there is a cooperation between the divine and the human in the regeneration process.)

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."
JOHN OWEN

This is a very good explanation of monergism (the article itself contains some additional and excellent links):
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/monergism_simple.html

The thing about removing the human element from salvation is that it removes the ability to boast. I know there is nothing that I have done or ever will do that will allow me entrance to God's presence.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2: 8 & 9

 

[PamC]

Synergism says God saves and it is all God's doing, even giving the gift to man the free choice to receive the cross rather than a monergism roboticism which boasts of itself as that robot. God enjoys our cooperation so that He alone can save. Why then believe in the robot? Isn't that robot really self's heady idea? Looking forward to your reply.

 

[edie19]

Synergism says God saves and it is all God's doing, even giving the gift to man the free choice to receive the cross rather than a monergism roboticism which boasts of itself as that robot. God enjoys our cooperation so that He alone can save. Why then believe in the robot? Isn't that robot really self's heady idea? Looking forward to your reply.

No - synergism says that man is a participant in his salvation, that his cooperation is required. That's all well and good - except Scripture is clear - no man seeks after God. The fact that God is totally sovereign in my (or anyone else's) salvation doesn't make me a robot or a puppet. Neither does it make God an egomaniacal task master. It makes Him the One Being truly worthy of praise and adoration. I rest in the knowledge that He has a perfect plan and He will see that plan fulfilled perfectly. I much prefer my understanding of Him than your apparent idea that He's merely doing all He can (post #4).

From the Westminster shorter catechism:
[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1]Q (31):[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif] What is effectual calling?
[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1] A: [FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1] Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit, whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[PamC]

Synergism says God first gifted man the free-choice to receive the salvation of God, that man's cooperation is needed, otherwise then man would not be made in God's image to have a right to choose the cross. Thus, no man seeks after God by the flesh, but this does not disallow man to be able to choose the cross from the image in which man is made of God's image. God's effective calling convinces, but does not make a robot. How could that ever glorify God and how could you accept a conscience that would make robots for heaven or for hell?

 

[elf_lady_9]

I made a good choice God longs we all make, and you can too, though not by the flesh. You are made in God's image too to believe and receive. Though man is quite limited, there is one thing he can do, that is come to the cross to receive salvation. We are quite limited because we are fallen, not totally deprave, otherwise none could be saved by faith could they? No man can be grateful to God for making him a robot for salvation or for making people for hell with no opportunity for salvation. An evil man could though perhaps. Why then believe God is so vain to ask you to come to the cross, if He saves you before you can believe? Is God so vain? This is my heartfelt question to you.

the Bible makes it very clear that man is totally limited and depraved. it says that all our "righteousness" is like filthy rags. what could be better proof of depravity than that? even the "good" things we do are disgusting and unclean in God's eyes! and like i said before we're not robots for salvation. we are supposed to be perfect; that what God intended people to be. sin is not a natural state any more than blindness is. eyes are meant to see, people were meant to love God. but a blind man can't make himself see; he can't reverse the incident that made him blind. and a sinful human can't not sin; he can't reverse the Fall of man. only God can heal us of our spiritual blindness. when God works in our hearts He does not make us robots, but merely who we were meant to be. it's the people who remain in their sinful states who are the robots.

and God is not vain, and i don't really see why you think that the doctrines of predestination, total depravity, and limited atonement make him so. it's not vanity to ask us to come to the cross. it is the way God calls His elect. just because He has already chosen them to be saved doesn't mean they don't have to go through the salvation process.

 

[edie19]

Synergism says God first gifted man the free-choice to receive the salvation of God, that man's cooperation is needed, otherwise then man would not be made in God's image to have a right to choose the cross. Thus, no man seeks after God by the flesh, but this does not disallow man to be able to choose the cross from the image in which man is made of God's image. God's effective calling convinces, but does not make a robot. How could that ever glorify God and how could you accept a conscience that would make robots for heaven or for hell?

Again - I don't know of a single believer who considers man robots - almost every poster replying to you has stated such. Maybe you could find a better choice of words in continuing the discussion.

But to answer your question - I don't accept a conscience (because He's so much more than that) who makes "robots". I accept the God who spoke the universe into being, the God who knows when a sparrow falls to the ground, the God who had a plan for preserving His people before time began. Most, if not all, of the SR forum subscribe to the tenets of the Westminster Catechism (I didn't include Scripture prooftexts, but will if you'd like). I accept the God defined there-in.

Question 7: What is God?
Answer: God is a Spirit, in and of himself infinite in being, glory, blessedness, and perfection; all-sufficient, eternal, unchangeable, incomprehensible, everywhere present, almighty, knowing all things, most wise, most holy, most just, most merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.

Question 12: What are the decrees of God?
Answer: God's decrees are the wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he has, for his own glory, unchangeably foreordained: Whatsoever comes to pass in time, especially concerning angels and men.

Question 18: What are God's works of providence?
Answer: God's works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful preserving and governing all his creatures; ordering them, and all their actions, to his own glory.