Nevermind the details...

[fatalalgorithm]

I've been searching around for some answers so that I might change my views on Christianity as a whole. Currently I am agnostic but I feel like there is a good chance that a "God" exists. The problem I run into is Christianity. Unfortunately it would seem that the Bible and even Christianity as a whole is a creation of man that while based on the older religion Judaism, is still as out in left field as any cult or other major world religion.

My case for this.

Christianity today is as different from person to person as the clothes we wear. If you sat 100 Christians down and asked them to name some of the big issues that they feel need to be addressed in Americas governing, you would most likely hear about Homosexuality and Abortion. So initially you would think, "These guys are pretty much on the same page here." But this is where the similarities end.

If you then ask the same 100 Christians, "How do you feel about Leviticus 19:19?" You would probably have to read it to them first.

"Do not mate two different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two different kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of thread. NLT"

What would each of them say? Odds are they would be wearing at least one Cotton/Polyester blend article of clothing and none of them would be able to give you the same answer.

Or how about this one?

How much do you think I could charge for my daughter? I love her so much but things are tight right now due to the economic crisis and I think I need to sell her as a slave.

The aforementioned 100 would probably all be appalled and yet Exodus 21:7 clearly outlines the requirements for such a sale.

Also I bought my friends daughter and I liked her so much I decided to marry her. She is great and all but when I was at the beach this weekend I met a wonderful woman named Mary. I decided to marry her as well. Just to make sure I was right with God I read up on it in my bible and found Exodus 21:10-11 that says

10 “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11 If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."

So I guess my question here would be, Is it okay for me to have sex with both of them at the same time? Or should I separate our sexual encounters? I think the easiest way would just be to have sex with them at the same time without allowing them to touch each other because that would be borderline homosexual but the Bible is slightly vague on the sexual aspect of a man and his wives.

Another thing that I have become slightly worried about is women who are on their period. How do I tell if they are so I can avoid, not only touching them, but also touching anything they have touched? I have tried asking all my female co-workers but that seems to be very offensive to them for some reason.

Anyway Leviticus 15:19-24 says “Whenever a woman has her menstrual period, she will be ceremonially unclean for seven days. Anyone who touches her during that time will be unclean until evening. Anything on which the woman lies or sits during the time of her period will be unclean. If any of you touch her bed, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. If you touch any object she has sat on, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. This includes her bed or any other object she has sat on; you will be unclean until evening if you touch it. If a man has sexual intercourse with her and her blood touches him, her menstrual impurity will be transmitted to him. He will remain unclean for seven days, and any bed on which he lies will be unclean."

These are several of the reasons I have a problem with the Bible in general. Everyone says that the Bible is timeless and can be applied to all our lives but that of course is untrue. And although "God is unchanging," is a popular sentiment that is preached from countless pulpits every Sunday, it is proven false by the Bible in several places.

If anyone can shed some light on these aspects of the Bible and give me some real answers based in reality and not wishful thinking or skewing of the Bible to make is say what they want I would really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Hentenza]

Thread moved to Exploring Christianity from Christian Apologetics.

 

[fatalalgorithm]

^Thank you I was wondering where to post.

 

[Insubres]

The basis, the handbook, for Christianity is and always has been the New Testament. Those who look to Old Testament rules and try to apply them today are doing something that is unheard of in previous times and are a minority in the grand scheme of things. Frankly it just doesn't matter what the Old Testament says about polyblends or whatever.

Also note, according to the Jews themselves, the mitzvot were not created on any basis such as the desire of God, or rational discourse or some objective standard. They are arbitrary and they were to follow them simply to show they were obedient to God. That they do not apply to non-Jews doesn't mean God changed his mind, they never applied to non-Jews to begin with, nor did he ever desire for us to follow them.

 

[fatalalgorithm]

Thanks for the answer. What do you use to support the idea that the old testament is worthless?

 

[drich0150]

These are several of the reasons I have a problem with the Bible in general. Everyone says that the Bible is timeless and can be applied to all our lives but that of course is untrue. And although "God is unchanging," is a popular sentiment that is preached from countless pulpits every Sunday, it is proven false by the Bible in several places.

If anyone can shed some light on these aspects of the Bible and give me some real answers based in reality and not wishful thinking or skewing of the Bible to make is say what they want I would really appreciate it.

You are aware you are on a Christian web site and not an ancient Hebrew site correct?

If this is the case then it shouldn't be difficult for you to make the distinction between Judaism and Christianity. (Which has it's roots in Judaism, but in fact is not Judaism.)

As far as your assertion about the bible being timeless, and God is unchanging, I would assume that either the bible is wrong, or understanding of an unchanging God and a "timeless bible" is in error.

For example, just because God issues decrees and ordinances that are meant to govern a specific people during a given allotment of time, doesn't mean any change to those decrees or ordinances (once the time has expired) results in a different or changing God.

I live in the United States, and if you look at laws and government that existed in this nations infancy, you will note a vast difference to what we have now. Does this mean we live we live in a different nation? Am I any less American than someone born in the late 1700's? Even if there have been changes to the landscape and the law/government over the years, we are still a nation founded on unchanging principles. We are a people dedicated to life, liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. we are still a government for, of and by the People. We live in the shadow of these unchanging principles.

If you care to look past the Law of Moses and the various religions of man, dedicated to the worship of the One True God. You will see a signal unifying thread, in that it is not God who changes, it is we that change and our understanding of God that changes. How proud is the heart that sees mercy in a command of God (Where their could not be any before,) and automatically assumes that it is God that changed?

God allows Change, as we mature. He doesn't change, we do.

 

[Insubres]

Thanks for the answer. What do you use to support the idea that the old testament is worthless?

I didn't say it was worthless, it is not worthless, but that it doesn't matter what it says about laws for us. The laws in the Old Testament were written concerning and for Jews, it is part of their covenant, not us. The laws in the Old Testament were never meant or claimed to be the moral code for everyone, only for the Jews at that time (perhaps today too, I am not a Jew however so it is irrelevant to me to have an opinion on that).

The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily (by conversion).

Source

 

[Insubres]

Another thing I have thought about: The new testament speaks of "all the nations" quite frequently, but if Christians are supposed to follow the Old Testament rules then by default - according to Judaic law - they are part of the Jewish nation. In Judaism there is no difference between a convert to Judaism (someone who voluntarily chooses to observe the laws) and someone born a Jew, they are completely forbidden to even remind someone that they converted or treat them any different whatsoever from someone that has always been Jewish. People tend to think of Israel as primarily a nation that happens to have particular characteristics, just like any other nation, but Israel is first and foremost according to the bible those who are of the covenant. So, if everyone is supposed to be following the OT laws then there would not be multiple nations if it actually occurred, there would only be one.

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[fatalalgorithm]

Thank you Jpark. You have so far given the best answer but I still have a problem seeing how the Old Testament is even included if the new testament is all that Christians use as a guide.

 

[Insubres]

Thank you Jpark. You have so far given the best answer but I still have a problem seeing how the Old Testament is even included if the new testament is all that Christians use as a guide.

It is useful because it gives background history to Christianity, it sets the stage for Christianity. And there are good things to learn from the Old Testament, it is not just commandments given to the Jews. You can easily buy bibles with just the New Testament, too, if for some reason you're just not interested or whatever.

 

[Bro_Sam]

If anyone can shed some light on these aspects of the Bible and give me some real answers based in reality and not wishful thinking or skewing of the Bible to make is say what they want I would really appreciate it.

I think my irony meter just exploded.

 

[fatalalgorithm]

^That is very constructive. Thanks for the help Bro.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I've been searching around for some answers so that I might change my views on Christianity as a whole. Currently I am agnostic but I feel like there is a good chance that a "God" exists. The problem I run into is Christianity. Unfortunately it would seem that the Bible and even Christianity as a whole is a creation of man that while based on the older religion Judaism, is still as out in left field as any cult or other major world religion.

My case for this.

Christianity today is as different from person to person as the clothes we wear. If you sat 100 Christians down and asked them to name some of the big issues that they feel need to be addressed in Americas governing, you would most likely hear about Homosexuality and Abortion. So initially you would think, "These guys are pretty much on the same page here." But this is where the similarities end.

If you then ask the same 100 Christians, "How do you feel about Leviticus 19:19?" You would probably have to read it to them first.

"Do not mate two different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two different kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of thread. NLT"

What would each of them say? Odds are they would be wearing at least one Cotton/Polyester blend article of clothing and none of them would be able to give you the same answer.

Or how about this one?

How much do you think I could charge for my daughter? I love her so much but things are tight right now due to the economic crisis and I think I need to sell her as a slave.

The aforementioned 100 would probably all be appalled and yet Exodus 21:7 clearly outlines the requirements for such a sale.

Also I bought my friends daughter and I liked her so much I decided to marry her. She is great and all but when I was at the beach this weekend I met a wonderful woman named Mary. I decided to marry her as well. Just to make sure I was right with God I read up on it in my bible and found Exodus 21:10-11 that says

10 “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11 If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."

So I guess my question here would be, Is it okay for me to have sex with both of them at the same time? Or should I separate our sexual encounters? I think the easiest way would just be to have sex with them at the same time without allowing them to touch each other because that would be borderline homosexual but the Bible is slightly vague on the sexual aspect of a man and his wives.

Another thing that I have become slightly worried about is women who are on their period. How do I tell if they are so I can avoid, not only touching them, but also touching anything they have touched? I have tried asking all my female co-workers but that seems to be very offensive to them for some reason.

Anyway Leviticus 15:19-24 says “Whenever a woman has her menstrual period, she will be ceremonially unclean for seven days. Anyone who touches her during that time will be unclean until evening. Anything on which the woman lies or sits during the time of her period will be unclean. If any of you touch her bed, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. If you touch any object she has sat on, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. This includes her bed or any other object she has sat on; you will be unclean until evening if you touch it. If a man has sexual intercourse with her and her blood touches him, her menstrual impurity will be transmitted to him. He will remain unclean for seven days, and any bed on which he lies will be unclean."

These are several of the reasons I have a problem with the Bible in general. Everyone says that the Bible is timeless and can be applied to all our lives but that of course is untrue. And although "God is unchanging," is a popular sentiment that is preached from countless pulpits every Sunday, it is proven false by the Bible in several places.

If anyone can shed some light on these aspects of the Bible and give me some real answers based in reality and not wishful thinking or skewing of the Bible to make is say what they want I would really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

I think its Paganism.

The first question...has to do with what we think about blood. Its not just a matter of them physically touching something. I don't think I want to get into details here.

On the servant issue, first off we are to adhere to the laws of the land if servanthood is not legal. I consider it probably more relevant to the working environment today. But servanthood had tight restrictions during the time period. If in fact we were to go to a servanthood system, these rules would always apply. By the way, slavery was never an option.

You should read that Exodus 21:7-11 passage in context. It actually does not state that you can marry more than one person. It states if he decides to marry someone else, then such and such must be done in accordance with the servanthood teachings. Just wanted to point that out to you.

If you want to find some extensive answers to the Bible in totality, congratulations, you have met someone who can help you. I would encourage the studies of Messianic Judaism, as I had some of the same issues you did. If you have any questions, please see www.lightofmashiach.org and www.therefinersfire.org and I can help you with some questions as well.

 

[fatalalgorithm]

^Thanks those are all very good points. I agree that it doesn't expressly condone marrying another woman but if it was against the "Rules" so to speak, I feel like they wouldn't have mentioned what to do if you decided to do that. But still a very constructive point and I am going to check out those sites as soon as I get the chance. Thanks again.

 

[Supreme]

The OT rules were intended for the Old Covenant God made with the Jews. Paul and Peter made it clear that one does not have to convert to Judaism to be Christian, so likewise, one does not have to obey Jewish laws to be a good Christian.

 

[Sketcher]

The reason for confusion is that many Christians are uneducated on the role of the Law of Moses. Martin Luther's sermon clears much of that up.

And there is truth to what is said about the Bible not changing - because the Law of Moses never applied to non-Jews. Now, it has moral principles in it which do apply to all mankind, but they were first revealed well before the time of Moses, and were repeated to the Jews among the extra laws that they have on Mt Sinai. In fact, these principles are preached almost to the point of redundancy it seems, as you read the Mosaic Law - so many of these laws come back to "Honor God," "Don't cheat one another," etc. Furthermore, let's look at some of these laws which are clearly evident in the Bible before Moses came about:

• Do not murder (Genesis 9:6)
• Do not steal (Genesis 21:25, Genesis 2:16 - in addition to disobedience to God, Adam and Eve stole the fruit from God since he did not give them permission to eat from it)
• Do not indulge in forbidden sexual relations (Genesis 2:24 permits sex only between a husband and wife. No homosexuality, no incest, no adultery, no fornication, no polygamy, no bestiality, etc. This is repeated in Acts 15:20 which uses the general term porneia. Jesus also uses this verse to define marriage and teach that it is for life in Matthew 19:3-9.)
• Do not eat meat that was taken from a live animal (Genesis 9:4, repeated in Acts 15:20). Kill it first.

These apply to everybody, as do obvious laws such as loving and honoring God, worshiping him alone, not misusing his name. Bottom line, if it's repeated in the New Testament, it's for us. If it's only commanded only to the Jews in the OT, and not repeated in the NT, it's probably not for us.

 

[Joveia]

Something to remember also is that Jesus specifically says that the Old Testament laws involved a compromise between what God wanted ideally, and what the ancient Israelites were prepared to accept. Matt 19:8: Jesus replied, "Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended."

Ancient near east culture was so incredibly different to us that they would have considered 'standard' the OT laws we find bizarre. We can find similar attitudes in laws in other ancient near east cultures of the period, and so it was probably what the Israelites were prepared to accept.

Nevertheless there is a wonderful core to the OT laws. Two great verses are: "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." (Lev 19:18), and an interpretation from the NT, Matt 7:12: "Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." So if the rabbis of the Old Testament period thought that, then there must be something in their understanding compared to ours that modern critics are missing, that enables them to think that.

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[fatalalgorithm]

Indeed they were dead serious about their religion. Thanks for all the great info everyone. Seeing things through different eyes is always a great way to learn something new.