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Never Understood This...

m3k

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I was raised a christian, but left the faith. I became a practicing buddhist, built a career, got married and had kids. After a 20-year hiatus, I started re-reading the bible. With my new perspective I find passages that resonate with incredible spiritual power. The bible is truly a gift to mankind.

But here is one thing I have never understood, and it still don't understand:

Because Christ died, your sins can be forgiven, and because He conquered death you can have eternal life.

It makes absolutely no sense to me at all - I just don't see the connection and I don't believe that I ever will.

Maybe I'm just dense, because there are millions of people who hear the same words and believe. Is there a rational or metaphorical way to understand this assertion? Or is it something that is meant to be somehow felt/experienced, rather than understood/explained?
 

m3k

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KCJls said:
Jesus died for your sins, so they can be forgiven. Because he died for these sins, if you ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus in your heart as your savior, you'll have eternal life in heaven.
Thanks for your reply - but like I said I don't get it. Why did Jesus have to die so that my sins can be forgiven? Couldn't god have chosen some other way to forgive my sins? The crucifixion is certainly a powerful icon of life overcoming death. But I don't see how it connects to my sins.
 
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Jessica Lauren

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People would not believe, if they didn't see. God sent his son(Jesus) to the Earth, to die, so our sins would be forgiven. People saw this and believed.

The Bible, God's Word, gives us many reasons as to why Jesus came to this earth:


"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto (served), but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." Matt. 20:28; Mk. 10:45

"For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56

"I am come to send fire on the earth..." Luke 12:49

"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10; Matt. 18:11

"The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

"Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God." Heb 10:7

"For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will who has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:38-40

"And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin..... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." I John 3:5,8

"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice which reconciled us to The Father) for our sins." 1 John 4:9,10

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32; Matt. 9:13; Mk. 2:17

"Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." John 12:27 He came to die for our sins!

"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not abide in darkness.... for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:46,47

".... To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth..." John 18:37

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners..." I Tim 1:15

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matt. 5:17

".... I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true....." John 7:28

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." John 9:39

"Wherefore when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do your will, O God." Heb 10:5-7; Ps. 40:6-8

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb 9:26 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18,19

[size=+1]JESUS SENT BY THE FATHER
FOR THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD[/size]

1. Christ reveals himself throughout his earthly life as the Saviour sent by the Father for the salvation of the world. His very name, "Jesus", expresses this mission. It actually means: "God saves".

It is a name he was given as a result of heavenly instruction: both Mary and Joseph (Lk 1:31; Mt 1:21) receive the order to call him by this name. In the message to Joseph the meaning of the name is explained: "for he will save his people from their sins".

2. Christ defines his saving mission as a service whose highest expression will be the sacrifice of his life for mankind: "For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mk 10:45; Mt 20:28). These words, spoken to counter the disciples’ tendency to seek the first place in the kingdom, are primarily meant to awaken in them a new mentality, which conforms more closely to that of the Teacher.

In the Book of Daniel, the figure described as "one like a son of man" is shown surrounded by the glory due to leaders who receive universal veneration: "all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him" (Dn 7:14). Jesus contrasts this figure with the Son of man who puts himself at the service of all. As a divine person, he would be fully entitled to be served. But in saying he had "come to serve", he shows a disturbing aspect of God’s behaviour: although he has the right and the power to make himself served, he puts himself "at the service" of his creatures.

Jesus is the only Saviour and MediatorJesus expresses this desire to serve in an eloquent and moving way at the Last Supper when he washes his disciples’ feet: a symbolic act which will be impressed as a rule of life on their memory for ever: "You also ought to wash one another’s feet" (Jn 13:14).

3. In saying that the Son of man came to give his life as a ransom for many, Jesus is referring to the prophecy of the suffering Servant who "makes himself an offering for sin" (Is 53:10). It is a personal sacrifice, very different from the animal sacrifices used ancient worship. It is a life given "as a ransom for many", that is, for the immense multitude of humanity, for "all".

Jesus thus appears as the universal Saviour: all human beings, according to the divine plan, are ransomed, freed and saved by him. Paul says: "Since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they arejustified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24). Salvation is a gift that can be received by each one to the extent of his free consent and voluntary co-operation.

4. As universal Saviour, Christ is the only Saviour. Peter affirms this clearly: "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

At the same time, he is also proclaimed the only mediator between God and men, as the First Letter to Timothy affirms: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tm 2: 56). As the God-man, Jesus is the perfect mediator who unites men with God, obtaining for them the goods of salvation and divine life. This is a unique mediation which excludes any competing or parallel mediation, although it is compatible with participated forms of mediation (cf. Redemptoris inissio, n. 5). Consequently, any other autonomous sources or ways of salvation cannot be admitted apart from Christ. Thus in the great religions, which the Church considers with respect and esteem in the way indicated by the Second Vatican Council, Christians recognize the presence of saving elements, which nevertheless operate in dependence on the influence of Christ’s grace.

Therefore these religions can contribute, by virtue of the mysterious action of the Holy Spirit who "blows where he wills" (Jn 3:8), to helping men on their way to eternal happiness, but this role is also the fruit of Christ’s redemptive activity. Thus with regard to other religions, Christ the Saviour is also mysteriously at work. In this task he unites to himself the Church, which is in a way the "sacrament of communion with God and of unity among all men" (Lumen gentium, n. 1).Christ alone can satisfy all our desires

5. I would like to conclude with a wonderful passage from the Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, by St Louis de Montfort, which proclaims the Christological faith of the Church: "Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end of everything.... He is the only teacher from whom we must learn; the only Lord on whom we should depend; the only Head to whom we should be united and the only model that we should imitate. He is the only Physician that can heal us; the only Shepherd that can feed us; the only Way that can lead us; the only Truth that we can believe; the only Life that can animate us. He alone is everything to us and he alone can satisfy all our desires.... Each one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

Through him, with him and in him we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can become perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life" (n. 6 1).

http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01041998_p-24_en.html (that was taken from here)
 
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crossrunner

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The most simple way I can explain (and fellow believers please correct me if I'm in error) is that God hates sin. We as humans have sinful nature. We need atonement for that sin (thus the Israelites sacrificed animals for atonement in the OT days...spotless lambs for instance). God sent His only Son to become the ultimate spotless lamb to die for us for our ultimate atonement. Our acceptance of this gift (sacrifice)given freely and with love is what saves us from facing God with sin in our lives upon judgement. If we confess our sins to God, accept His atonement for those sins, believe Jesus is the Christ; the Son of the Living God and give our lives, wills and hearts to Christ then we are saved.
I hope this helps. :) God bless you,
cr
 
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m3k

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crossrunner said:
The most simple way I can explain (and fellow believers please correct me if I'm in error) is that God hates sin. We as humans have sinful nature. We need atonement for that sin (thus the Israelites sacrificed animals for atonement in the OT days...spotless lambs for instance). God sent His only Son to become the ultimate spotless lamb to die for us for our ultimate atonement. Our acceptance of this gift (sacrifice)given freely and with love is what saves us from facing God with sin in our lives upon judgement. If we confess our sins to God, accept His atonement for those sins, believe Jesus is the Christ; the Son of the Living God and give our lives, wills and hearts to Christ then we are saved.
I hope this helps. :) God bless you,
cr
Thank you - this is helpful. Can I ask a couple of follow up questions?

Why did god need a sacrifice - an animal or human death - to atone for sin? Can't an all-powerful god just forgive?

Does god still require bloody sacrifice? Is god himself growing/changing/maturing? (btw this would echo my own journey as a father dealing with my kids's over the years, evolving from anger/punishment to a more helpful style to work through mistakes)

How do you "Believe Jesus is the Christ"? Why is this so important? What is it that you believe? Is it somethink that you do? say? feel? Is there a technique, or a path to get you there? How do you know that you truly believe, as opposed to wishful thinking or delusion?

How do you give your life to Christ? Is it enough to take care of god's creation - the earth and people? To follow the teachings of Jesus? How do you know when you've truly done what god asks?

Is Jesus the only path to god? I feel god at work in my life every day. I believe that the teachings of jesus take you to god. Is that what we're talking about?

Sorry about my rambling, stupid questions. I just want to understand - not offend. God bless, m3k
 
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BarbB

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m3k said:
Thank you - this is helpful. Can I ask a couple of follow up questions?

Why did god need a sacrifice - an animal or human death - to atone for sin? Can't an all-powerful god just forgive? The blood of the sacrifice covered the sin, in effect hiding the sin from God.
Does god still require bloody sacrifice? Only of praise - not blood. Is god himself growing/changing/maturing? No, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (from the Bible). He never changes - he's the one constant in this world! (btw this would echo my own journey as a father dealing with my kids's over the years, evolving from anger/punishment to a more helpful style to work through mistakes) Your analogy still stands - you are a child of God, the Father, though. Just as your children are learning to live, so you learn to live from God.
How do you "Believe Jesus is the Christ"? I have what is called "saving faith" - faith that Jesus is the son of God, my savior! Why is this so important? Saving faith is a gift from God. What is it that you believe? Is it somethink that you do? No. say? Not necessarily. I.e. it's not saving faith just because I can talk about it. feel? I do feel it in that I am no longer afraid of death. Actually, I'm not afraid of much anymore! Is there a technique, or a path to get you there? I acknowledged that God was in control of my life and my spirit and begged him to help me know him. He was faithful to help me know him by the Holy Spirit. Jesus became my best friend, which can sound horribly unrespectful unless he's your friend too. He showed his love for me by laying his life down for me! :bow: How do you know that you truly believe, as opposed to wishful thinking or delusion? Because I have a peace which surpasses all understanding, just like the Bible says!

How do you give your life to Christ? You acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of your spirit and allow him to guide your life. Read the Bible; meet with other believers; allow agape love to grow in you. Is it enough to take care of god's creation - the earth and people? No, though that is a result of accepting Jesus. To follow the teachings of Jesus? Yes, but even non-Christians can do that of their own will! How do you know when you've truly done what god asks? That I can't answer; I'm still grappling with what God wants me to do! :D
Is Jesus the only path to god? YES! I feel god at work in my life every day. I believe that the teachings of jesus take you to god. Is that what we're talking about? Well, except it's accepting Jesus as your life which takes you to God, not just believing the teachings. As the Bible says, even the demons accept the teachings and they certainly aren't saved!

Sorry about my rambling, stupid questions. I just want to understand - not offend. God bless, m3k

No offense, m3k. I've got to go to bed now. Check back next week because there are posters like "raphe" who can make it all make sense! God bless you - it sounds as though the Holy Spirit is making his presence known in your life. Keep reading the Bible! It was a big factor in my salvation!
 
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m3k

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"As the Bible says, even the demons accept the teachings <of Jesus> and they certainly aren't saved!"

I'd like to know where does it say that in the bible??

When I asked "Why is it important (necessary) to believe in Jesus" (as opposed to his teachings) you answered "Saving faith is a gift from God." Could you clarify this for me? I just don't understand why Jesus himself (rather than his teachings) is the only path.

God is vast - beyond words, outside of time and space. No human concept can be more than a pale reflection of gods reality. Not even the labels 'Jesus' and 'God'. With the limitations of our human knowledge, isn't it possible that there is more than one path to god?

Well, I'll stop now. Thanks everyone for your helpful feedback! This has helped me think about things and I look forward to reading anyone elses' replies. m3k
 
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Under_His_Shadow

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m3k said:
"As the Bible says, even the demons accept the teachings <of Jesus> and they certainly aren't saved!"

I'd like to know where does it say that in the bible??
"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble" [in fear of His judgement for their rebellion] (James 2:19).

m3k said:
When I asked "Why is it important (necessary) to believe in Jesus" (as opposed to his teachings) you answered "Saving faith is a gift from God." Could you clarify this for me? I just don't understand why Jesus himself (rather than his teachings) is the only path.

Because the Bible explains that Truth is not only the written or verbal Divinely inspired and transmitted Word of God, but a Person, namely the Lord Jesus Christ, who became the fleshly manifestation / embodiment of God's communication/Word to mankind. (Jn.1:14; Jn.14:6)

m3k said:
God is vast - beyond words, outside of time and space. No human concept can be more than a pale reflection of gods reality. Not even the labels 'Jesus' and 'God'. With the limitations of our human knowledge, isn't it possible that there is more than one path to god?

The Bible declares that there is only "one Mediator (pathway) between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim.2:5) and that "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved". (Acts 4:10-12). Jesus Himself said, "I am the [only] Way. No one comes to God the Father except through Me." (Jn.14:6)


m3k said:
Thanks for your reply - but like I said I don't get it. Why did Jesus have to die so that my sins can be forgiven? Couldn't god have chosen some other way to forgive my sins? The crucifixion is certainly a powerful icon of life overcoming death. But I don't see how it connects to my sins.

God is perfectly just and His justice necessarily requires, as the Bible puts it, "life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth". (Ex.21:23-24; Deut.19:20) Because "the person who sins will die", both physically and spiritually, (Eze.18:20), and the entire human race sinned and died in Adam who sinned (1Cor.15:22), (that is we inherited Adam's sinful nature through his blood line) who is the father and "federal head" of our human race, God's justice could legally/justly only be satisfied by having a sinless substitute, i.e., Jesus Christ, take our sins and their penalty (eternal death) upon Himself , and die for us.
 
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m3k said:
I was raised a christian, but left the faith. I became a practicing buddhist, built a career, got married and had kids. After a 20-year hiatus, I started re-reading the bible. With my new perspective I find passages that resonate with incredible spiritual power. The bible is truly a gift to mankind.

But here is one thing I have never understood, and it still don't understand:

Because Christ died, your sins can be forgiven, and because He conquered death you can have eternal life.

It makes absolutely no sense to me at all - I just don't see the connection and I don't believe that I ever will.

Maybe I'm just dense, because there are millions of people who hear the same words and believe. Is there a rational or metaphorical way to understand this assertion? Or is it something that is meant to be somehow felt/experienced, rather than understood/explained?
Let me start by saying that the bolded assertation is not technically correct, though you'll probably get differing views on that here on this MB. Christ's death was not purposed to give you the possibility of salvation. It was purposed to make salvation actual.

On that note, what is it about the death of Christ and the forgiveness of sins that you are having difficulty with? I will start by telling you that the biblical account of the atonement is not figurative. It is a literal event that God ordained to atone for the sins of His children.

So, what is it about this issue that you are struggling with?

Thanks for your question,
God bless
 
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m3k said:
Thanks for your reply - but like I said I don't get it. Why did Jesus have to die so that my sins can be forgiven? Couldn't god have chosen some other way to forgive my sins? The crucifixion is certainly a powerful icon of life overcoming death. But I don't see how it connects to my sins.
Maybe I should read the whole thread before replying...;)

Anyway, the first thing to take note of is that God is a just God. This means that when God establishes a law He cannot just arbitrarily disregard it. To do so would go against the nature of God. So, God said that the wages (what you earn) of sin are death. When God established the penalty for sin it bound Him to executing His wrath upon iniquity.

As for how it applies to your sins, the issue is one of providence and the depravity of mankind due to the Fall. When Adam and Eve sinned against God they incurred the guilt of sin upon all whom they represented, i.e., the human race. Additionally, sin became a part of man's subsequent nature to such a degree that we are told that every though of the heart of fallen man was only evil continuously. After the Fall man is subject to the effects of original sin. Original sin does not refer to the first sin but rather the effects of the first sin. The effects were that man is born with a nature that is wholly disinclined to obey God. Fallen man, in his unregenerate state, views God and His Law as the enemy. The Law of God is the enemy of those who do not follow God because Its truth exposes the depths of man's iniquity. Man may ignore the Law of God but not with impunity. Despite man's rebellion he will still stand before God and give account for his rebellion.

So, the truth of man's inherent nature is one of rebellion. This clearly flies in the face of mankind's common view of mankind. We are regaled, over and over, with surveys that show the common belief is that people are "basically good." The Bible tells us that no one is good, no not one. The fact that we are, by nature, children of wrath, desiring only rebellion, means that we are unable to atone for our own sins, much less the sins of others. The only worthy atonement in the eyes of a holy God is that of a righteous and unblemished sacrifice. As there has never been a person who fit that requirement, and God knew there never would be, He sent His Son to be what we could not be.

So, this is why Christ had to die. Let me make one more point. Christ's mission was not simply to die to atone for sins. Christ had to fullfill the covenant of works that was established between God and Adam. Christ must not only die as an unblemished lamb, He must also obey the Law at every point, even in the midst of manifold temptation.

His faithfulness is contrasted with the disobedience of Adam to represent that "the last Adam" achieved for God's children what "the first Adam" failed to achieve.

Lastly, I imagine that God could have chosen a different way but He didn't. Knowing God as I do I can only assume that the way He did choose was chosen because it was the most glorifying method.

God bless
 
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crossrunner said:
Our acceptance of this gift (sacrifice)given freely and with love is what saves us from facing God with sin in our lives upon judgement.
The application of the merit for the work of Christ is a work of grace by God and we do nothing to merit such an application, nor does something we do, such as "accept the gift," aid God in validating this application. Our "acceptance" is the result of being made aware of what we are and what Christ did to appease God on our behalf, not the means to that forgiveness. God forgives us our sin because He is pleased with the propitiation of Christ, not because we chose to avail ourselves of that sacrifice.

If we confess our sins to God, accept His atonement for those sins, believe Jesus is the Christ; the Son of the Living God and give our lives, wills and hearts to Christ then we are saved.
You may disagree but, once again, confessing our sins is the product of conviction, not the basis for our forgiveness. Non believers are not convicted because they give no heed to the authority of the Convictor. Only when God works in our hearts through the indwelling to make us aware of our need for His sacrifice are we moved to repent. This "work" is His monergistic work of regeneration, i.e., our spiritual rebirth. Prior to His work in our heart we are dead in our tresspasses and sins and have no desire to be reconciled to Him.

God bless
 
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KCJls said:
Well, God doesn't hate... God is all love.
This is not true. God IS love but the Bible is clear that God's love is confined to His children, i.e., those for whom Christ atoned. Those for whom God did not send His Son will give account for their own sins and are considered workers of iniquity. God's disposition towards these people is made clear in the Gospel:

Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.

God bless
 
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m3k said:
I was raised a christian, but left the faith. I became a practicing buddhist, built a career, got married and had kids. After a 20-year hiatus, I started re-reading the bible. With my new perspective I find passages that resonate with incredible spiritual power. The bible is truly a gift to mankind.

But here is one thing I have never understood, and it still don't understand:

Because Christ died, your sins can be forgiven, and because He conquered death you can have eternal life.

It makes absolutely no sense to me at all - I just don't see the connection and I don't believe that I ever will.

Maybe I'm just dense, because there are millions of people who hear the same words and believe. Is there a rational or metaphorical way to understand this assertion? Or is it something that is meant to be somehow felt/experienced, rather than understood/explained?
It's great that you are reading the Bible. Jesus said that His words impart spirit and life to the hearer.

Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Christ bore our sins and the sins of mankind as a race of beings so that the price could be paid for man's disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Why would He put man in a garden with a devil, knowing they would fall to temptation? Well, how much love can come from a forced relationship or from a robot? God knew what it took to create a being after His own image in a physical body and spiritual one so that He could have a people and a family - Sons of God. Before Adam fell in the Garden, God had already prepared with the sacrificial lamb slain before the foundations of the universe - Christ. If we imagine we can create a better universe and reveal ourselves to it, indeed, it is only imagination, but God has done it and knows the deep things of how to give life and create a universe, as we see and experience everyday.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now if you go even before the garden and ask why would God allow evil to exist, then think of the color pallete God had to create in order to make His universe. A masterpiece cannot be created and painted with just white. Black is the absence of light and the perfect contrast give definition to the truth and light of His being. All the colors, including the dark ones add the character and wonder we see and experience in life and the creation around us. God hints at this in Romans 9:22 - "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" When evil has revealed God to His Sons and the Sons of God have all shown forth from the darkness, the contrast, evil will be done away with forever. Evil is a necessary component to creation is we meditate upon the Word of God and see how He overcomes it and not only overcomes, but causes it to bring about good.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

From Adam, all men inherit death. We also inherit a nature that is sinful and completely ignorant of God. Because of this nature, man is lost and can never know God, as the seperation from God that brought the physical death also caused the spiritual death that comes from any living thing that is not connected to its source of life. Cut a branch off a vine and it whithers and dies. Jesus said that He was the vine, and if we abide in Him, we would have life - eternal life, as He was the "firstborn" of many brothers and sisters that would make a population of people as family to God. He was the first to rise from death, and we follow after Him, as is symbolized by the baptism ceremony and confession.

Romans 5:15 And what a difference between our sin and God’s generous gift of forgiveness. For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through God’s bountiful gift.
16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but we have the free gift of being accepted by God, even though we are guilty of many sins.

How do we abide in Christ and escape the old nature of sin and death? Jesus said it plainly in John's gospel - You must be born again, born from above, - from God. Nicodemus, the teacher asking Jesus about these things said how can a man be back in his mother's womb, and Jesus explained that what is born of water in physical birth is different from what is born of spirit. With this rebirth, we have been connected to God and His Holy Spirit and now have twin natures inside of us that battle for control over the body and mind. We know how the body effects the mind, and the old dead nature of selfishness and ignorance to God now has an opponent, the Holy Spirit of truth, which will lead us to righteousness (right standing) with God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

I have heard that Budda never claimed to be God, but said that we would find enlightenment within ourselves. The difference this has from the Bible is that Bible scripture says that man's inherited nature can never lead a man anywhere but to death, and that the only source of life and enlightenment comes from the Creator Himself. The Creator, Yahweh, has given us a Redeemer in Jesus Christ to pay for the mistake man made that led to his death, and has told us through His written Word and the Living Word how to have eternal life and be reborn into His family. If we pridefully insist that we can find our own brand of righteousness when God has established right standing for us through His own sacrifice, then we indeed stand in our pride and own ways, alone.
He is ever there and bids us come, taste and partake freely.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

As for your questioning God's love, you will find that God is also just and therefore must judge. He displays His grace and love towards man and gives us life. Man rejected His word in the garden and died. He buys us back at great physical pain and cost to Himself with His own blood shed - then when we refuse all He has offered us, even after making us twice His, surely judgment has to come in order for there to be justice. Everytime people have died in the Bible, it was not without warning or knowledge by those responsible for their families lives. Life returns to Him and is judged according either our own works in the flesh or according to His own work at the cross in Jesus. I we accuse Him of injustice, then we are pridefully ignorant of true justice and are in error, but this has been the problem with satan and man - that they fall in their pride to fantasy and delusions of their own power and grandeur.
 
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meebs

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m3k said:
Thank you - this is helpful. Can I ask a couple of follow up questions?

Why did god need a sacrifice - an animal or human death - to atone for sin? Can't an all-powerful god just forgive?

Does god still require bloody sacrifice? Is god himself growing/changing/maturing? (btw this would echo my own journey as a father dealing with my kids's over the years, evolving from anger/punishment to a more helpful style to work through mistakes)

How do you "Believe Jesus is the Christ"? Why is this so important? What is it that you believe? Is it somethink that you do? say? feel? Is there a technique, or a path to get you there? How do you know that you truly believe, as opposed to wishful thinking or delusion?

How do you give your life to Christ? Is it enough to take care of god's creation - the earth and people? To follow the teachings of Jesus? How do you know when you've truly done what god asks?

Is Jesus the only path to god? I feel god at work in my life every day. I believe that the teachings of jesus take you to god. Is that what we're talking about?

Sorry about my rambling, stupid questions. I just want to understand - not offend. God bless, m3k
I think he wanted animal sacrifice because he wanted you to give your best (eg animals, which were very important in them days) when asking for forgiveness, also sacrifcing your best to him showed you were loyal.
As for the other bit, i dont understand myself, why cant he just forgive?

as believing that Jesus is Christ, we go by faith, as i feel there is no evidence. :scratch:
 
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crossrunner

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m3k said:
Thank you - this is helpful. Can I ask a couple of follow up questions?

Why did god need a sacrifice - an animal or human death - to atone for sin? Can't an all-powerful god just forgive?

Does god still require bloody sacrifice? Is god himself growing/changing/maturing? (btw this would echo my own journey as a father dealing with my kids's over the years, evolving from anger/punishment to a more helpful style to work through mistakes)

How do you "Believe Jesus is the Christ"? Why is this so important? What is it that you believe? Is it somethink that you do? say? feel? Is there a technique, or a path to get you there? How do you know that you truly believe, as opposed to wishful thinking or delusion?

How do you give your life to Christ? Is it enough to take care of god's creation - the earth and people? To follow the teachings of Jesus? How do you know when you've truly done what god asks?

Is Jesus the only path to god? I feel god at work in my life every day. I believe that the teachings of jesus take you to god. Is that what we're talking about?

Sorry about my rambling, stupid questions. I just want to understand - not offend. God bless, m3k
Dear M3k
Your questions are not stupid at all. As a matter of fact, I think we, as Christians, ask the same questions from time to time. They are puzzling. If you don't mind...I'm getting ready to go to Church and I'm going to ask a trusted teacher about the animal sacrifices just for you.
You can give your life to Christ just by praying to Him and telling Him that you wish to follow Him. His gift of salvation is freely given. His Holy Spirit is stirring something in you. Continue to read His word and pray to Him for wisdom as you are reading it.
According to His word in John 14:6 Jesus says: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. We as Christians do believe that He is the only way.
Jesus is extending an invitation to you. Please take a step in faith and accept it. I promise that you won't regret it.
Again, I am going to Church in a few minutes and I will pose some of your more difficult questions to a trusted friend.
God bless you dear in your journey!
cr
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Of course God could just forgive. I strongly suspect He does.

But salvation is far more than forgiveness. Reconciliation is more than forgiveness. Healing the rift between humanity and divinity is more than forgiveness.

And that can't just "happen". That requires someone to make it happen. Someone who is both human and divine. Someone who takes that humanity right through all the things - good and bad - that make humanity truly human. Including betrayal, suffering and death.

And bring it through the other side, so defeating death.

That's what it takes to do that. Forgiveness is easy. Real salvation is harder.
 
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