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Nephilim

mindlight

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Apparently there are 2 main theories about the passage in Genesis 6 describing these.

1) Fallen angels
2) sons of Cain

My pastor believes and preached 2) on Sunday but I have always believed 1) and want to think this one through properly.

Which one do you believe and how does scripture support your view?
 

Keachian

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Linguistically the 'im suffix is to do with plurality, exegetically they are called the children of God or the children of men, my interpretation of that specific idea is that the children of God is the people of God, and the children of men is humans outside of the people of God
 
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mindlight

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Linguistically the 'im suffix is to do with plurality, exegetically they are called the children of God or the children of men, my interpretation of that specific idea is that the children of God is the people of God, and the children of men is humans outside of the people of God

So you would agree with my pastors interpretation then. My reservations about this include:

Genesis 6 v 1-4 said:
When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.


Since the children of Cain were wiped out by the flood only the sons of God remained. Thus another explanation is required for Nephilim if they also existed after the flood- this is definitely implied by the phrase "and also afterward"


This view is supported later in Numbers


Numbers 13 v 33 said:
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.


So one logical explanation is that falling angels are tempted by women and have occasionally mated with them both before and after the flood. People like Goliath or Anak (both of gigantic size) can be explained by their superhuman origins (also perhaps many of the Greek myths e.g. Hercules). It makes no sense to say that these were merely unbelievers as why would there then be any size implication or imputation of strength/renown/heroism from having unbeliever ancestry?


Also this is the mainstream historical interpretation by most of the churches and has been reinforced by references to apocryphal books and commentary through the ages. When there are good grounds in scripture to agree with this broader tradition why challenge it?
 
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Keachian

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So you would agree with my pastors interpretation then. My reservations about this include
Since the children of Cain were wiped out by the flood only the sons of God remained. Thus another explanation is required for Nephilim if they also existed after the flood- this is definitely implied by the phrase "and also afterward"


This view is supported later in Numbers

So one logical explanation is that falling angels are tempted by women and have occasionally mated with them both before and after the flood. People like Goliath or Anak (both of gigantic size) can be explained by their superhuman origins (also perhaps many of the Greek myths e.g. Hercules). It makes no sense to say that these were merely unbelievers as why would there then be any size implication or imputation of strength/renown/heroism from having unbeliever ancestry?


Also this is the mainstream historical interpretation by most of the churches and has been reinforced by references to apocryphal books and commentary through the ages. When there are good grounds in scripture to agree with this broader tradition why challenge it?
I wouldn't necessarily as the interpretation of those outside of the people of God being limited to Cain's descendants is too often used as part of kennite theology and that's just too nasty a rabbit-hole of hatred and spite to go down, I see the Nephilim as people of enormous stature, and so would probably be classed as a Nephilim at my height of 5'11" I also think this understanding adequately deals with the reference in Numbers that you bring up. In regards to the flood and who the people of God were at that time, as Noah is a Christ-like figure I'd probably say that he alone was the person of God even though there was Methuselah still alive and likely all the rest of the Family of Seth as multitudinous as they probably were.
 
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I wouldn't necessarily as the interpretation of those outside of the people of God being limited to Cain's descendants is too often used as part of kennite theology and that's just too nasty a rabbit-hole of hatred and spite to go down, I see the Nephilim as people of enormous stature, and so would probably be classed as a Nephilim at my height of 5'11" I also think this understanding adequately deals with the reference in Numbers that you bring up. In regards to the flood and who the people of God were at that time, as Noah is a Christ-like figure I'd probably say that he alone was the person of God even though there was Methuselah still alive and likely all the rest of the Family of Seth as multitudinous as they probably were.

Goliath is a better example and is described as 6 cubits high (over 3 metres) in the generally more reliable Masoretic Text based translations. Such a man would have been truly terrifying and indeed superhuman to those around him.

Reading up on this I found an argument relating to the way the word rhyme in the text in 1 Samuel 17:

Another reason to make it six cubits is the meter and alliteration of I Samuel 17:4:
v'yetse ish habenayim (And a warrior went out)
mimahanot plishtim (read "plishtayim" - from the camp of Philistine)
Galyat shemo, mi Gat gov'ho (Goliath his name, from Gat his height)
shesh amot v'zeret (six cubits and a span)
"arba" (four) wouldn't have the same alliteration as "shesh" (six) with "ish", "plish" and "shmo".

translation - How tall was Goliath? - Biblical Hermeneutics Beta - Stack Exchange
 
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dcyates

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Yeah, if I understand progmonk correctly, I agree with him. The "sons of God" are simply men while the "daughters of men" are simply women.

We should remember that the chapter and verse divisions were added much later, and as a result of these verses acting as the introduction for Gen 6, we tend to link and otherwise identify it closely with the Flood -- and obviously, simply in terms of proximity, that's a perfectly fine understanding -- but coming as it does right after our introduction to Noah, I think it's these verses that Jesus was referring to when he was speaking about the coming judgement.
Here in Genesis we're told that in the days of Noah, men and women were getting married and being given in marriage, and were having children and going about their daily lives, then all of a sudden, the judgement came in the form of the deluge.
So, Jesus informs his disciples: "For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east.... But when that hour and day will come, no one knows.... For the Son of Man's coming will be just like in the days of Noah. Back then, before the Flood, people went on eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, right up until the day that Noah entered the ark; and they didn't know what was happening until the Flood came and swept them all away. It will be just like that when the Son of Man comes" (Matt 24.27, 36, 37-39).
 
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pshun2404

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ha'nephiyl can mean fallen or apostate but the term Nephilim specifically means "giants". This is a generic term like an adjective and does not describe a particular order or race of beings as some suppose. Therefore there could have been nephilim (really large exceptionally tall people) before and after the flood. This does not necessitate giants in the sense of what we think of from Jack and the Beanstalk. To an average 5 ft 5 inch Hebrew person, a Shaq O'Neil (especially a whole group of them) IS a giant. No one in their typical known world has such a stature.

This always arises with the image of David and Goliath but consider a teenaged Israelite boy about five foot tall weighinh all of 100 plus pounds encountering a massive 300 hundred pound 8 ft. man in full armor (with a helmet on).

In modern times we can site the watusi of Africa who tower over six feet to around seven and half feet and compare them to a tribe of pigmies four feet tall at best...giants are real!

Then we also see the genetic abnormailty called giantism. The tallest man alive is 8 foot 1 inch and there is a Japanese woman around 8 foot tall as well (they should probably marry). But can you imagine the average Japanese person standing next to her?

Paleontology has also discovered a few pieces to this puzzle. We have found footprints that measure 18 inches and a in another place a human femer bone nearly a meter long. This individual would have been around 9 feet tall (an exception I am sure).

Do not however be fooled by the giant fadism like the alleged twenty foot skeleton found in India, it ia a fake...

Anyhoo...nephilim is a separate issue from the fallen angels versus the sons of Seth debate...but I just wanted to share this so it could make sense how there could be nephilim before and after the flood.

in His name

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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The least commonly accepted explanation, held by the more modern Rabbinical schools, is that these were possibly city-kings or magistrates who possibly had their way with and married many women (wives plural). Secondly, some have reasoned that these sons of God were the men of the godly line of Seth who became corrupted by intermarrying with the daughters of Cain. These unions corrupted the godly worship of the line as well as regard for God and His word, and their offspring became vicious, ruthless rulers who committed all sorts of evil in the uncleanness of their hearts, on every level of the imagination. The most common understanding however, is that these were angels, who having fallen from their heavenly estate, or having been sent by the Lord for some particular original purpose, either by rebellious plan or as a matter of unusual circumstance assumed flesh forms and became sexually attracted to the daughters of men. Their subsequent lust led them to commit an abominable union which led to these unusual offspring for which there are more than one possible understanding.

I will address each of these in turn so here is the first.

The idea that kings or tribal leaders were somehow the offspring of or manifestations of the local god was not uncommon in ancient times. Meredith Kline in her article from The Westminster Theological Journal, May 1962, uses the Sumer-Babylonian epic tradition which either deals with these city-kings as either having been placed into these positions by the favor of their gods or else being offspring/manifestations of these gods. In her perspective, it makes perfect historical sense that these “sons of God” in Genesis six could have “established their own authority as supreme head of a fabricated religio-politico system; then they held their subjects in gross spiritual darkness and abject physical slavery.” Apparently there is a long history of this and similar anthropological developments though out history. Hittite kings were apparently deified after their deaths, while in Egypt the Pharaohs were believed to be divine from birth. The Krt text from Ras Sharma (Krt being the name of a god) tells us of his son, the king, who is called Krt bn il which can be interpreted to mean the “son of El”.

We see this concept everywhere we look from the early Celts and druids all the way to the Japanese “Kami” or preist-king. In Minoa, as well as in Inca and Aztec cultures, the kings or chiefs were considered the incarnation of the Sun god, or at least his direct descendants. In the Norse countries their kings were always the sons of Odin, or some other god. Many like in the Japanese legend were considered priest-kings and performed both functions. While the Roman Emperors were gods themselves, the Byzantine emperors considered themselves to be God’s representative on earth. Perhaps this is what led to the control exercised by Popes in the middle ages who also billed themselves as the representative of God on earth (see also Ivan Engnell, Studies in Divine Kingship in the Ancient Near East, Oxford, 1967). Undoubtedly these notions are so anthropologically universal that they must have had a root somewhere in the historical past. Only though these examples are often used in this context to support the magistrate or city king notion, all these tales point to some sort of intimate union or interaction between their gods and these human beings producing what we might call god-men.

This is one theory the others will follow…

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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The sons of Seth theory…Julius Africanus (200-275 A.D.) appears to be the first to directly mention this perspective, it was really Augustine of Hippo in his book, The City of God, who developed this idea insisting that since Adam was a son of God and Seth was his son, who also followed God, then Seth and his line are sons of God (Luke 3:38). He also postulated that the daughters of men are the ungodly daughters of Cain and their intermarriage corrupted the true religion and worship of Yah (the Lord). The position of Justin Martyr, which we will touch on briefly, though holding to the supernatural view, does allude to the possibility of debate on this issue as early as his time.

In Chapter 15 Augustine said, “Many persons affirm that they have had the experience, or have heard from such as have experienced it, that the Satyrs and Fauns, whom the common folk call incubi, have often presented themselves before women, and have sought and procured intercourse with them. Hence it is folly to deny it. But God’s holy angels could not fall in such fashion before the deluge. Hence by the sons of God are to be understood the sons of Seth, who were good; while by the daughters of men the Scripture designates those who sprang from the race of Cain. Nor is it to be wondered at that giants should be born of them; for they were not all giants, albeit there were many more before than after the deluge.”
How can Augustine surely know that certain orders of angels could not fall in such a fashion? Was he omniscient? We know that some angels can or could assume human forms. There is nothing in Scripture that limits all orders of angels to only doing so when the Lord commands it. It is therefore just as possible that perhaps these Watchers as they are called in Apocryphal literature could have in fact had this ability of their own free will. At this juncture those who support this view usually revert to one of two scriptures which they claim supports their view by declaring that angels cannot have sexual intercourse:

Matthew 22: 30 reads, “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven”, and

Luke 20:34-36 reads, “Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”

They say these scriptures infer that angels do not, and some say cannot, have sexual intercourse, but is that what is actually being said here? The two passages only say that they do not marry, but when we dig into the Old Testament we find that nowhere in any root word translated “to marry” from the ancient Hebrew can one derive a meaning equal to having sexual intercourse. Even from early on, people who were not married were having sexual intercourse. Now granted this was not God’s will for man but it nonetheless was and still is a fact. The root words all mean things like to “rule over, to own, to inhabit with”, etc., and not one word I could find in any Hebrew Lexicons is automatically equated with having sex! Therefore, it is quite possible, though the Bible is silent on the matter, that when angels are manifest in a physical form (which is always male) that they actually are capable of having intercourse and even marrying, but it is just that they normally would never do it. From this additional eisegesis we derive all sorts of other speculations like angels are neuter gender or asexual, but we actually have no idea what they are capable of.

This Luke passage, as well as John 1, implies that the sons of the resurrection (the saved elect), or those born from above, are also called “sons of God.” If this requires being born of His Spirit and since Christ had not yet come, then people were not yet born from above before Christ came and thus it seems unlikely that the sons of Seth could quite qualify for this title.

So in my humble opinion, though they use this scripture erroneously associating it with sexual intercourse (and many pagans and Christians have or have had sex outside of marriage), we also must ask what it means to be born again and whether this can be applied to pre-Christ saints? The traditional view regarding their temporary state following physical death is that they go to an area of Sheol/Hades called by the Rabbis “Abrahams Bosom” where we see Lazarus in Luke 16. They remain there until after Jesus crucifixion when He went there and set them free (leading captivity captive), this being a common application of Paul’s reference to Psalm 68 in Ephesians 4.

Allegedly, all the people of faith, before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, who believed in and placed there hope in the Lord’s redemptive promise (Genesis 3:15) were saved but in an as yet future sense dependent on the seed of the woman eventually coming and bruising the head of the serpent. If this theory is correct then the sons of Seth cannot rightly be considered as “sons of God.” However others see it as once the redemptive price was paid the righteous captivity were set free and entered heaven until the resurrection, while the unrighteous captivity are now led to their final holding place until the judgment. Again either is plausible and we just cannot know.

Another problem with this view however is its late development. It appears to have been a compromise to soften the effect of Julian the apostate and others who were teaching that this was absurd. However, up until that time, the primary supernatural view was always believed by all Jews until the 2nd century, and was still believed by all the early Christians (as far as the writings we know have) who had been taught by those instructed by the Apostles.

A third problem is that nowhere in Genesis, or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, are the sons of Seth referred to as the sons of God. Likewise, nowhere in the Bible are the “daughters of men” specifically a reference to the daughters of Cain. These could well have been any women including the daughters of the Sethites. In almost every other place where this specific concept is used in the Old Testament, it is clearly speaking of angels (Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7; Psalm 89:6, 103:20; Daniel 3:25).

Yet another problem appears to be in the words themselves that are used. The first phrase is bene ha’Elohim but the second is literally daughters of Adam. From this it would appear if this interpretation is correct, then Seth himself would be Elohim and Cain would be Adam. But weren’t the daughters of Seth also the daughters of Adam? Yes they were. If not, then where were they more properly the daughters of Elohim (Sethite), and why were they not affected? If not affected by this marriage corruption plot, then why would they also have to die in the flood? If the daughters of Seth were also among “daughters of men” then this makes sense, otherwise the phrase does not make sense and causes confusion because it excludes them and they should have been spared.

Consider it

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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As for the angels theory, many very early scholars held the view that the scriptures were saying that these sons of God were actually angels. Flavius Josephus, Philo, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian, Athenagoras , Commodianus, and even the Historian and Bishop Pamphilus Eusibius all held to this traditional view, just to name a few.

Josephus said, “Now this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe, and to have an entire regard to virtue, for seven generations; but in process of time they were perverted, and forsook the practices of their forefathers… many angels of God accompanied with women and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians called giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and, being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better; but, seeing that they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land. (see pg. 32, Book 1, chapters 3, 72-74, The Antiquities of the Jews, translated by William Whitson, Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1987)

Both Josephus and Philo were taking from what had always been taught and believed. The first verbalized commentary of this nature appears in apocryphal works, the earliest of which is Enoch 1 which is preserved in the Bibles of the Ethiopian Orthodox church to this day. An Ethiopian Jewish Codice was translated in 1821 by Richard Laurence the Arch Bishop of Cashel in England as well, but the one we are most familiar with is the translation found in The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, translated by R.H. Charles, Clarendon Press, Oxford, in 1913. This is an invaluable work that I would recommend for all serious students of the Bible. It is also is the source of the quotation we will be viewing that has been taken from The Book of Jubilees. Since that time we have also uncovered a fragmented copy of Enoch 1 (4Q201) among the works of the apocalyptic Qumran society of Dead Sea Scroll fame.

Enoch 6:1-6 says, “And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto to them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' And Samyaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon . . .

Jubilees 5:1-3 tells us a similar tale. Now this rendition adds an additionally abominable fact. I believe when it says, “all flesh corrupted its way, and their orders,” that this implies that the nature of sexual activity crossed all the lines and limitations designed by God. Not only were men with other men as women, and women were now sodomizing and also being with each other as men, but also that animals were being involved and corrupted as well. Was this not as it was in Sodom and Gomorrah? Oh, how terribly vile! God forbid! And finally it appears that brutal gluttony was afoot, and possibly even cannibalism, but without doubt they had no regard for the commands of God. It also mentions giants as their offspring, but this shall be discussed separately. In chapter 5:6, as in other accounts, we read, “And against the angels whom He had sent upon the earth, He was exceedingly wroth, and He gave command to root them out of all their dominion, and He made us [one of the good angels is speaking] to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold they are bound in the midst of them and are (kept) separate.”

Moving on, as a testimony to the witness of the early Church, I have chosen just a couple of passages that should suffice to let you know that the earliest church also held to this same view.

In volume 1 of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Justin Martyr, in his Second Apologia, chapter 5 Declares. “The Bible says that God made Adam in his own image and likeness (see Genesis Chapter 1: 26-27) so we can see how some may say Adam could be considered a son of God (Luke 3:38), but following on we read that Adam had a son in his own likeness, in his own image (Genesis Chapter 5:3). So based on the scripture itself, can we really say that Seth is defined therein as a son of God? According to this scripture alone, if it were all we had, Seth would be more clearly defined as a son of Adam or son of man.

As indicated earlier, one can see that some may have been considering the alternate Sethite view because of the language Justin uses. The argument being poised this way indicates this was so. So Justin also wrote “when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man … committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons.”

Many other cultures allude to this time in their myths. Not only do we find similar themes amidst the mythologies of the Norse, Greeks, and the Romans, but even among many of the nature religions. I am convinced that if this theory is correct, then these abominable offspring are the so-called Titans. In many of the nature religions, like the Yaruba of Nigeria, the Creator God, the highest God, gave governance and guidance of the earth over into the hands of lesser gods (our angels), some of who rebelled and sought control over humans (Ogun, Dagon, Atun, etc.,). Others believed to be good were sent to oppose them.
In the Greek myths, the Titans were giant or mighty half-human half-gods, who were the fruit or offspring of the Olympian gods and earthly peoples. When Chronus led a rebellion against his father they were defeated and imprisoned in a place called tartarosas. This is the exact same word used by Peter for hell in 2 Peter 2:4 which is commonly understood to mean an abyss.

2 Peter 2:4 says, “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarosas) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment…”

Even the ancient Babylonian “Enuma Elish” (which mystics translate as the truth of the god-men) describes a similar battle and defeat involving the highest of their gods, Marduk, the Creator, who defeats the “water gods” in order to form and populate the earth. Could the water gods be these offspring and their fathers who were destroyed in the flood? After all many of the post-Noahic myths seem to be culturally colored elaborations of the stories captured the books of the generations depicted in the Bible. All of this seems to be affirmed in Jude 5-7 where the writer says: “I will therefore put you in remembrance, though you once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels who kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Paul
 
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DamianWarS

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Apparently there are 2 main theories about the passage in Genesis 6 describing these.

1) Fallen angels
2) sons of Cain

My pastor believes and preached 2) on Sunday but I have always believed 1) and want to think this one through properly.

Which one do you believe and how does scripture support your view?

I like to use the words of Jesus as dcyates has to help give meaning to this passage of what this pre-flood state was like. Jesus likens in Mat 24 the "coming of the Son of Man" with "the days of Noah" saying "in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" and then the flood came. Jesus also makes some remarks about angels as well in Mat 22 saying "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven" which sort of puts this concept of angels being not the breeding type.

If the "coming of the Son of Man" is going to be like it was in the days of Noah then we should expect the Nephilim, this part angel part man race, should make an appearance again... that is of course if your believe that the Nephilim is from angels and humans interbreeding.

There is however a bit of weight to this idea that the Nephilim are the products of a fallen angels. The word Nephilim itself can be argued to mean "fallen ones" which would fit well with this idea of fallen angels. Genesis 6 is talking about the breeding of "sons of God" with the "sons of Man" and the result appears to be giants who lived a long time and were considered heroes and aren't necessarily considered evil. If we are to assume this is from "bad" humans and "good" humans having sex a question must be answered why natural + natural = supernatural. The equation doesn't seem to make sense and a supernatural + natural = giants seems more believable. The text does seems to make it clear that this was male "sons of God" having relations with female "sons of Man". If we are to believe this is fallen angels it does make more sense to have impregnated females carry the child for the 9 months and give birth to them then it would be for angels to give birth to this race again it if its going to happen that scenario seems more believable.
 
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mindlight

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There is however a bit of weight to this idea that the Nephilim are the products of a fallen angels. The word Nephilim itself can be argued to mean "fallen ones" which would fit well with this idea of fallen angels. Genesis 6 is talking about the breeding of "sons of God" with the "sons of Man" and the result appears to be giants who lived a long time and were considered heroes and aren't necessarily considered evil. If we are to assume this is from "bad" humans and "good" humans having sex a question must be answered why natural + natural = supernatural. The equation doesn't seem to make sense and a supernatural + natural = giants seems more believable. The text does seems to make it clear that this was male "sons of God" having relations with female "sons of Man". If we are to believe this is fallen angels it does make more sense to have impregnated females carry the child for the 9 months and give birth to them then it would be for angels to give birth to this race again it if its going to happen that scenario seems more believable.

As with the comments of Pshun2404 I would tend to agree with this. Pshun2404 listed an impressive list of church fathers who tended towards this view and the texts throughout scripture make most sense to me with this interpretation rather than the others. This has been the traditional explanation and this is the one to be challenged rather than the other way around.

Also I tend to take supernatural interpretations and to reject the modern Western tendency to prefer alternate explanations that do not require supernatural creatures or miracles and to debunk such explanations.

This debate is partly tied up with the one about Goliaths height in the bible. The Masoretic text says 9 foot(6 cubits) which makes the case for Nephilim spawning giants with Goliath as a prime example. It also make Davids victory all the more a powerful example of faith over brute force. The Septuagint says Goliaths height was only about 4 cubits (6ft 7) and a early dead sea scroll and Josephus concur with this view of 4 cubits also.
So it seems this issue comes right down to whom you trust as the source of reliable scripture- Jews, or Greeks and rebel Jews.
 
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DamianWarS

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As with the comments of Pshun2404 I would tend to agree with this. Pshun2404 listed an impressive list of church fathers who tended towards this view and the texts throughout scripture make most sense to me with this interpretation rather than the others. This has been the traditional explanation and this is the one to be challenged rather than the other way around.

Also I tend to take supernatural interpretations and to reject the modern Western tendency to prefer alternate explanations that do not require supernatural creatures or miracles and to debunk such explanations.

This debate is partly tied up with the one about Goliaths height in the bible. The Masoretic text says 9 foot(6 cubits) which makes the case for Nephilim spawning giants with Goliath as a prime example. It also make Davids victory all the more a powerful example of faith over brute force. The Septuagint says Goliaths height was only about 4 cubits (6ft 7) and a early dead sea scroll and Josephus concur with this view of 4 cubits also.
So it seems this issue comes right down to whom you trust as the source of reliable scripture- Jews, or Greeks and rebel Jews.

taken literally of course this is what the account points to... however with regards to Genesis I find the earlier the account is the more they take on mythical/folklore style with few details, lots of supernatural, and lots of room to guess things. In contrast the later accounts in Genesis have far more detail and all in all seem more grounded and more reliable. If Moses is to be credited with writing Genesis than this makes sense as obviously the further back the details go from Moses' life the more unreliable they become and the closer the accounts are to when Moses actually walked the earth the more reliable they are.

Of course however we read the accounts in Genesis as divinely inspired but even still one has to consider why the supernatural scales are so grossly tipped in favor of the pre-flood era to what appears to be closer to chaos or at least very unfocused and uncontrolled supernatural behavior. The closer you get to Moses the more the supernatural seems to be balanced and much more well defined. What are we to make of this? Just because scriptures are divinely inspired doesn't mean they are actual literal events it just means they are accounts reveled to us through the divine. With regards to pre-flood era accounts I am more and more identifying them with divinely contextualized accounts designed for a people group very much influenced by myths of surrounding cultures. Instead of battling with simple minded people who refuse to let go of their mythical stories take the stories and redeem them by removing the myths of ancient gods and reinforcing the idea that the world is created and controlled by one monotheistic God and has ordained one people group to be a chosen people. The purpose of Genesis 6 is not to show that there are half breed angles roaming the earth but to show God's power and that he is in control.
 
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DamianWarS

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n-p-l can also mean abortion
the 3 hebrew letters Nun-Pe-Lamedh or naphal (נפל) make up the hebrew verb commonly translated as "to fall". The word for Nephilim is made up 4 hebrew letters which are Nun-Pe-Yodh-Lamedh (נפיל) and make up a masculine noun for this term for giants. All Hebrew words have a 3 letter roots and as you may guess Nephilim's root is naphal and Nephilim on some level will inherint meaning from this root.

Naphal's meaning can be used for anything really that is laid to waste, falls down or is cast aside (and abortion can be one of these things). In the case of the Nephilim it is probably related to what happens to the people who get in their way where by either they fall in shear terror of the Nephilim or are forced into submission and cast aside. Of course there is also the suggestion that the Nephilim are the off spring of fallen angels and thus their relationship to the root however to me it would seem more appropria to call the actual fallen angels the Nephilim rather than their offspring.
 
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granpa

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Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon נְבֵלָה
1) carcass, corpse

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon נוּב
to sprout, to germinate
a shoot

(when you chop down (kill) a tree its stump shoots up shoots)

As to the visions of my head on my bed, I was looking, and lo, a tree in the midst of the earth...
13 `I was looking, in the visions of my head on my bed, and lo, a watcher, even a holy one, from the heavens is coming down.
14 He is calling mightily, and thus hath said, Cut down the tree, and cut off its branches, shake off its leaves, and scatter its budding, move away let the beast from under it, and the birds from off its branches;
15 but the stump of its roots leave in the earth
 
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granpa

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The "classic" Zurvanite model of creation, preserved only by non-Zoroastrian sources, proceeds as follows: In the beginning, the great God Zurvan existed alone. Desiring offspring that would create 'heaven and hell and everything in between,' Zurvan sacrificed for a thousand years. Towards the end of this period, androgyne Zurvan began to doubt the efficacy of sacrifice and in the moment of this doubt Ohrmuzd and Ahriman were conceived: Ohrmuzd for the sacrifice and Ahriman for the doubt. Upon realizing that twins were to be born, Zurvan resolved to grant the first-born sovereignty over creation. Ohrmuzd perceived Zurvan's decision, which He then communicated to His brother. Ahriman then preempted Ohrmuzd by ripping open the womb to emerge first. Reminded of the resolution to grant Ahriman sovereignty, Zurvan conceded, but limited kingship to a period of 9000 years, after which Ohrmuzd would rule for all eternity
 
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mercy1061

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Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon נְבֵלָה
1) carcass, corpse

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon נוּב
to sprout, to germinate
a shoot

(when you chop down (kill) a tree its stump shoots up shoots)

As to the visions of my head on my bed, I was looking, and lo, a tree in the midst of the earth...
13 `I was looking, in the visions of my head on my bed, and lo, a watcher, even a holy one, from the heavens is coming down.
14 He is calling mightily, and thus hath said, Cut down the tree, and cut off its branches, shake off its leaves, and scatter its budding, move away let the beast from under it, and the birds from off its branches;
15 but the stump of its roots leave in the earth

If we take the position that angels went to the daughters of men and had children by them; we must consider that the nature of angels are different than the nature of men. It was the uncircumcised heart of men that lead to this strange "resurrection" or angels taking on bodies made of flesh. Only one has been raised from the dead, the one man from heaven who covered himself with flesh.

This man was born of a virgin; a virgin is married to the L-RD. The text calling these woman "daughters of men" may indicate that they were indeed virgins dedicated to worship of spiritual beings. It was this evil worship of angels by virgin women that caused this breed of nephilim or giants in the earth.

Gen 5
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

For this cause, the nephilim were allowed to live after death or after the flood. The is why Moshe saw nephilim in the promise land. Israel was afraid of them, because she had not been circumcised with the hand of Moshe. So Joshua and Caleb circumcised her children with the sword; her children were able to overthrow these giants. Apparently these "nephilim" were not circumcised, David vs. Goliath.

1 Samuel 17

26 David asked the men standing near him, “What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace from Israel? Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?”

Yeshua was circumcised on the 8th day according to the custom passed down from Abraham. We know that once the old "foreskin" is cut off the body, the "foreskin" never grows back. Once circumcised, always circumcised.
 
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