Neighbor

Estrid said:

That is contrary to the meaning of the
word " absolute".

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Not really. Commands from God are either absolutes or derive from absolutes. Though it's possible to read it as contrary to "absolutes" if you're identifying the wrong thing as absolutes.

If I were to be saying "there are no absolutes" I would be contradicting myself because that is an absolute statement, so Christians don't accept that statement.

Sketcher said:

Not really. Commands from God are either absolutes or derive from absolutes. Though it's possible to read it as contrary to "absolutes" if you're identifying the wrong thing as absolutes.

If I were to be saying "there are no absolutes" I would be contradicting myself because that is an absolute statement, so Christians don't accept that statement.

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So give me an absolute for interpersonal
behaviour.

Estrid said:

So give me an absolute for interpersonal
behaviour.

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Absolute: People are valuable because God gave them value.
Therefore: Love your neighbor. Give your neighbor no less grace than you give yourself.

Sketcher said:

Absolute: People are valuable because God gave them value.
Therefore: Love your neighb or. Give your neighbor no less grace than you give yourself.

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How do you give grace to someone trying to
kill you.

What does "give grace" even mean?

Is there an absolute standard / definition for
what giving grace is or how much is enough?

Estrid said:

How do you give grace to someone trying to
kill you.

What does "give grace" even mean?

Is there an absolute standard / definition for
what giving grace is or how much is enough?

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Remember what I said a neighbor is?

Trying to kill you isn't neighborly, is it?

Someone trying to kill you is an enemy. But there is a command to love enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. That doesn't necessarily mean allowing them to harm you all the time, though it may mean that sometimes. But all of the time, you are supposed to love them, and yes, that is hard.

Giving grace means assuming the best possible motive, given the facts of what they are doing, might be true.

All Glory To God said:

Perhaps you are just following the teachings of your priests without questioning them and that is why any idea's outside of your head seem strange. I personally do my own study and do not submit to any man. Only God.

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You make a lot of assumptions on no evidence, just your obvious personal prejudices. I am glad you do your "own study" but I would be willing to match mine against yours anytime. I am scratching my head over you saying that I am following the teachings of "my priests" and implying that I submit to the commandments of man rather than God. How you can know or assume that from what I wrote is a mystery. I can only attribute it to the innate biases and prejudices which appear to muddle your thinking.

Love your enemy simply means do not repay evil for evil. I agree, don't do that. But how is that connected to loving these abusers the same as being one with a born again Christian? Two different types of love perhaps?

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What "these abusers" are you talking about? I made no connection like that in my posts. You are correct that loving your enemy means not repaying evil with evil, but that is only one aspect, one dimension of love. Jesus was talking about more than loving your enemy. I know you can read, so I trust you can find numerous references and examples of what Jesus meant by loving others (hint: refer to the scripture passages already provided in earlier posts).

The great irony of your posts is that you are demonstrating, through your narrow, restricted and limited view of love, exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught.

Sketcher said:

Remember what I said a neighbor is?

Trying to kill you isn't neighborly, is it?

Someone trying to kill you is an enemy. But there is a command to love enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. That doesn't necessarily mean allowing them to harm you all the time, though it may mean that sometimes. But all of the time, you are supposed to love them, and yes, that is hard.

Giving grace means assuming the best possible motive, given the facts of what they are doing, might be true.

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Doesn't really answer but ok.
It's just good basic advice.
Japanese are way better at it than westerners.
No Bible to tell them to behave so.

Martinius said:

You make a lot of assumptions on no evidence, just your obvious personal prejudices. I am glad you do your "own study" but I would be willing to match mine against yours anytime. I am scratching my head over you saying that I am following the teachings of "my priests" and implying that I submit to the commandments of man rather than God. How you can know or assume that from what I wrote is a mystery. I can only attribute it to the innate biases and prejudices which appear to muddle your thinking.

What "these abusers" are you talking about? I made no connection like that in my posts. You are correct that loving your enemy means not repaying evil with evil, but that is only one aspect, one dimension of love. Jesus was talking about more than loving your enemy. I know you can read, so I trust you can find numerous references and examples of what Jesus meant by loving others (hint: refer to the scripture passages already provided in earlier posts).

The great irony of your posts is that you are demonstrating, through your narrow, restricted and limited view of love, exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught.

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This is just a lot of complaining.

Sketcher said:

Remember what I said a neighbor is?

Trying to kill you isn't neighborly, is it?

Someone trying to kill you is an enemy. But there is a command to love enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. That doesn't necessarily mean allowing them to harm you all the time, though it may mean that sometimes. But all of the time, you are supposed to love them, and yes, that is hard.

Giving grace means assuming the best possible motive, given the facts of what they are doing, might be true.

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So giving grace requires nothing of you other than
having an attitude, one that may well be entirely
mistaken and lead to regrettable results?

Estrid said:

So giving grace requires nothing of you other than
having an attitude, one that may well be entirely
mistaken and lead to regrettable results?

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Giving grace begins with the attitude.

It's my experience that assuming the worst motivation by others is more likely to lead to regrettable results, such as stirring up strife where it need not exist. For dealing with criminals and exploiters, it's fine to have boundaries that protect you from their would-be manipulations and other abuses. If you don't let the home invader into your house, you're less likely to suffer the home invasion. When the offense has failed, there's less harm done, and less to forgive.

Sketcher said:

Giving grace begins with the attitude.

It's my experience that assuming the worst motivation by others is more likely to lead to regrettable results, such as stirring up strife where it need not exist. For dealing with criminals and exploiters, it's fine to have boundaries that protect you from their would-be manipulations and other abuses. If you don't let the home invader into your house, you're less likely to suffer the home invasion. When the offense has failed, there's less harm done, and less to forgive.

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I still dont know ofvanything but an
attitude involved in " giving grace",
or "loving my neighbour".

The very word " love" has so many meanings
in English there is no way to make sense of it.

Estrid said:

I still dont know ofvanything but an
attitude involved in " giving grace",
or "loving my neighbour".

The very word " love" has so many meanings
in English there is no way to make sense of it.

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It begins with attitude and often ends with appropriate deeds.

Sketcher said:

It begins with attitude and often ends with appropriate deeds.

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That is very far from an absolute in more ways than
i care to list.
How about a different one, that is absolute.

Estrid said:

That is very far from an absolute in more ways than
i care to list.
How about a different one, that is absolute.

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I don't think you're looking at it the same way I am. One can respond to absolutes in various different ways, according to circumstance. Same root, different branch.

Sketcher said:

I don't think you're looking at it the same way I am. One can respond to absolutes in various different ways, according to circumstance. Same root, different branch.

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What trunk is a absolute

All Glory To God said:

I wasn't talking about redemption but sure, let's explore this. Mind if I ask some questions?

Do you believe there is a diversity of outcome in the last judgment, meaning eternal communion with God or punishment from God for our sin? If God loves us all the same (which you claimed) will we all be saved/damned the same?

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In one sense, we are all damned the same--we all stand condemned and damned under the Law. The condemnation Jesus talks about in John ch. 3 when He says He did not come to condemn, but that there is already a condemnation because we prefer wickedness and conduct our wicked works under the cover of darkness to avoid the light.

It's the condemnation found in Adam.

In one sense, we have all been justified. In Lutheran Theology this is called "Objective Justification", it is the objective fact that in Christ all have been justified (Romans 5:18).

Objective Justification isn't what makes us, as individuals, justified before God; that is what is called "Subjective Justification". It is the answer to the question of how can I, sinner that I am, benefit from the objective and finished work of Christ. And the answer to that is through faith, God working through the Means of Grace (Word and Sacrament) to create and work faith in us, through which we are freely and fully justified as Divine Grace.

We also read in the Scriptures that it is God's will that all be saved, that all come to repentance, that God is the Savior of all men, etc. And this is the true and revealed will of God: That all (without exception) be saved.

Does this, therefore, mean that all will be saved? The answer to that is itself entirely impossible to answer; but the Scriptures are clear about the reality of judgment, and that outside of Christ there is no salvation, and that without faith it is impossible to please God, etc. Since no one can be justified under God's commandments, there is of course no room for saying there is eternal justification in good works--as the Scriptures are also clear that we are saved by grace, through faith, apart from ourselves and all our works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Scripture presents the sobering reality that there is likely many who will insist on colluding with death, rejecting God's offer of salvation right until the bitter end. But this isn't God punishing anyone, this is man choosing his own damnation.

God is not culpable for our destruction at the hands of our own self-made sin and death; we are.

That's what I am saying with ''There isn't one single kind of love'' but you seem to contradict when you say love all people. You can't have it both ways. It's either a distinct love for the same spiritual family and compassion for the lost or just a generic love for all humanity.

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This really isn't that complicated. Christ commands demonstrating agape to all people, in the same way that God shows agape to us by sending His only-begotten Son.

Agape is one kind of love, which is the love with which God loves us--the unconditional, sacrificing, self-emptying love of God in Jesus Christ who came to give His life as a ransom; and in that great love poured Himself out in humility and death, as the Apostle says in Philippians ch. 2 (which we are ourselves to emulate).

The Scriptures also call us to brotherly, familial affection toward one another as brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ. The love of familial affection which we are called to extend to one another in Christ.

We call both "love" in English. But these different kinds of love are not hierarchical. They are simply different expressions of love and affection through different vocations. The way I love my parents isn't the same way I love my friends. These are fundamentally different expressions of affection.

Agape is universally loving everyone by caring about others, caring about their well-being. It's not even about liking everyone. But it does mean that when your enemy is hungry, feed them, as St. Paul says in Romans 12. It means turning the other cheek, it means refusing to retaliate, it means denying our disordered passions and putting the needs of others ahead of ourselves (not that we reject our own needs, since love of neighbor assumes that we will naturally care for ourselves). Since you yourself need food when you are hungry, then when you see someone who is hungry, feed them. It's really that simple.

Show kindness.
Be concerned.
Care.
Live peaceably.
Turn the other cheek.

It's basic Christian discipleship. It's what the Christian Church from Christ until today has always taught and said.

Sure, a person can love a spouse and children more but that's really missing the point. The point is who is the neighbour and what should be done about it if anything. If everyone is your neighbour, why wouldn't you go inside and evangelize a church of professing Christians? And if non-Christians are to receive exactly the same love as Christians should, why not prayer to their deities? isn't that love?

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Evangelizing can be part of our activity of love. But that's not the principle meaning; and there is genuine danger in conflating the two. For example incidents where charity is withheld unless one promises to convert or at least partake in programs which are intended to bring about conversion. That's not loving our neighbor, that's exploiting and manipulating our neighbor; and it is shameful and antichrist.

The Church has never called me to be an evangelist, so "evangelizing" isn't particularly my vocation. I'll preach the Gospel as a lay person when opportunity presents itself and it's welcome. It's not my job to make other people Christians, and indeed I can't. The Apostle is very clear that faith is the gift of God which comes through God's ordered power. So the Apostle says in Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. I'll preach the Gospel to both Christian and non-Christian alike. Though, in point of fact, I do preach the Gospel to fellow Christians more often than I do non-Christians. It is my experience that the Gospel is not being preached, and is frequently being substituted for something entirely different--usually by confusing and conflating the Gospel with the Law; thus presenting the Gospel not as the pure grace of God through Christ Jesus which saves us sinners; but instead as a list of to-do's and don'ts. It is never the Gospel that commands, the Law is what commands. Thus all commandments are Law; and no one is justified by the Law.

I do have my own vocations in life though. And in those vocations I seek to be a Christian. And it has meant sharing my faith with others, I have shared my faith with both those who have never been Christians, those who were formerly believers but have left the faith, as well as fellow Christians. I trust that if what I say is faithful to the Gospel, that the Holy Spirit will use the Gospel to accomplish His good work. I can't make my friends believing Christians, but I can be a believing Christian with my believing, non-believing, and on-the-fence friends.

But no matter what, I always have the opportunity to be a friend. To hear them when they are worried, to have a beer with them if that's what they need.

I don't know how to be an evangelist, or a pastor, or a preacher. But the Lord has been gracious in letting me be part of the lives of many different kinds of people. And if in any small, even most minute way, God can use me to demonstrate His love, then to Him alone be all glory, honor, and praise.

But I'm not going to divide my neighbors into different groups. I believe that would be inherently un-Christian and fundamentally at odds with what Christ our God commands and wills for us as His baptized people. The Apostle reminds us that, in light of the grace of God displayed to us in our baptism, be dead to sin and alive to God through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

Estrid said:

What trunk is a absolute

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Love your neighbor.

Sketcher said:

Love your neighbor.

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Ok, we must have very different ideas of what absolute means.
Im going by dictionary, as near as I can tell.

ViaCrucis said:

Does this, therefore, mean that all will be saved? The answer to that is itself entirely impossible to answer; but the Scriptures are clear about the reality of judgment . . . .

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Sorry bro, I'm not trying to pressure you into writing shorter messages but that was a very long response to a couple of simply questions. And I still don't know if you believe if some will go to Hell or not.

Estrid said:

Ok, we must have very different ideas of what absolute means.
Im going by dictionary, as near as I can tell.

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Well, we absolutely need to love our neighbors, always. How we do that depends much on the circumstances.