Negotiating with Evil and Lewis' Perelandra

[zippy2006]

(This thread is aimed first and foremost at those who have read Lewis' Perelandra, and especially those who have listened to the nine minutes of the video cited.)

Recently Seraphim Hamilton and Richard Rohlin had a conversation on C. S. Lewis' Perelandra, and I am interested particularly in the section from 44:00-53:00. They are discussing the end of chapter 14, around page 155 of the Simon and Schuster edition. This is where Ransom realizes that he must stop negotiating with Evil, and thus resorts to violence against the Un-Man.

I want to leave the thread open-ended and try to preclude the quippier responses. Thoughts?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It is an uncomfortable reality that many Christians don't want to recognize but one which C.S Lewis taught us. Violence against a persistent evil, one which cannot be negotiated with or reasoned with is the only solution to said evil. It has taken some of us a long time to come to terms with reality and the necessity of violence, especially of male nature in order to resolve conflict. We as Christians cannot be pacifists and to do so is to let evil win and dominate.

 

[com7fy8]

where Ransom realizes that he must stop negotiating with Evil, and thus resorts to violence against the Un-Man.

Do not negotiate with evil. Do not allow evil to control our attention, and to get us into fighting on evil's terms. Violence can be a way of negotiating with evil, by letting it decide what we do.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

How did Jesus defeat evil people? He did not kill them or physically force them. All that would have done is remove certain evil out of the way for others to come in.

"Jesus stayed with doing the good which was so better than only destroying evil people."

Look at how well killing terrorists has been working. We hear some promise of how killing them will solve the problem. We hear about how killing them will scare them to stop their terrorism. However, ones keep turning up somewhere else. So, you do not negotiate with them by dealing with them, or by violence which is their language of a certain sort of negotiation; they can understand that by getting us to fight with them, you can get weaker and more and more wasted.

What does God do, then?

"God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. He does not shut Satan completely down, but He effectively resists Satan and his people. And God's almighty resistance is very effective . . . while He always is accomplishing His all-loving good, which *He* desires.

But Jesus says, "not to resist an evil person," in Matthew 5:39. So, is this a contradiction? After all, we are told to be "followers of God as dear children," in Ephesians 5:2. So, you could think this means we are to resist evil like God does. But my opinion is this all means for us to be together with God and move with how *He* resists evil from His spiritual level, according to His ability so more than ours, with us cooperating with and depending on how He does it.

Because how we would do it . . . would not be able to bring about the best possible results. And we might be focused on only protecting people who are our favorites . . . not being all-loving. And Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46. So, in case our violence is mainly self-interested . . . we can be in a spirit of inferior love, with weakness so we ourselves are suffering the violence of Satanic anger and hatred and unforgiveness and frustration. We can be sinking in a quicksand pit of pig poop all around us while we are righteously punching at the pig poop while it is swallowing us!! Or you can indeed show how tough you are to kick a pile of manure all over a field, and then smell how you have become.

We can consider how things worked with Joseph > Genesis 37-50. He had opportunity to destroy people who had done evil to him. But instead with God making things work out well he used even the evil deeds for his advantage and the good of many other people. Because he was co-operating with God who is all-loving and almighty and creative to manage evil actions to help to produce much greater good than whatever Satanic people had destroyed and taken from Joseph.

And likewise Jesus on the cross lost what He did, suffered how He did, but even simultaneously He was bringing such all-loving good.

Jesus on the cross gained souls, so much more than all He lost in His life. We might note how the good God brings is mainly for Him to get what He wants. God is bringing up children who are conformed to the image of Jesus, so He can love us and enjoy us the way He loves and enjoys Jesus. So, He is able to take advantage of evil for this main purpose, His primary focus . . . I understand through Romans 8:29 >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

However, our own ability for violence "might" not be able to bring God's all-loving results, and it might have our attention away from maturing in the image of Jesus and how He has us relating as His family.

So, we carry our cross, each day (Luke 9:23), *strategically* losing and sacrificing, but discovering how God brings so much more for ourselves and for others . . . how God makes this work. And we discover better than we could have tried to bring for good. And, like I offer, God is bringing all that is for His pleasure and enjoyment, even while doing things in this life for us, to share with us.

So, we need to be very careful, prayerfully careful. Because if God's word really does mean not to depend on violence, but instead to hold out for God's judging and managing what to do while He guides us *how*to*fit*in* . . . if we do otherwise, we are operating in negotiation with Satan on his terms so we can be magnets for how things can work in Satan's kingdom.

And unforgiveness is a part of the process of violence. And we know what Jesus says about not forgiving. We know how Jesus on the cross prayed >

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34)

Right while they were still busy with hating and murdering and torturing Jesus God's own Son, Jesus so prayed forgiveness to them.

But if our violence is in another spirit, we are magnets for Satanic things of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). And in our process of ungodly violence, we can be feeding deeply on Satanic stuff so we become weaker and then can suffer ever deeper cruel feelings and disorderly emotions and dominating demands for vain and foolish pleasures. In the weakness we can become post-traumatic and keep fighting the same battles ever over inside ourselves, among other possibilities.

So, first is to become strong in Jesus, so we are in His almighty immunity against how cruel emotions would ransack us. And in Jesus we have His immunity almighty to keep us safe from bad memories that may attack, but can not get to us while we are obeying God in His peace with His almighty safety and immunity.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And be strong with Him in compassion of love and generous forgiveness. And be pleasing to our Father in all this, sweetly pleasing, fragrant in gentleness and quietness of His "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:28-30).

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Do not negotiate with evil. Do not allow evil to control our attention, and to get us into fighting on evil's terms. Violence can be a way of negotiating with evil, by letting it decide what we do.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

How did Jesus defeat evil people? He did not kill them or physically force them. All that would have done is remove certain evil out of the way for others to come in.

"Jesus stayed with doing the good which was so better than only destroying evil people."

Look at how well killing terrorists has been working. We hear some promise of how killing them will solve the problem. We hear about how killing them will scare them to stop their terrorism. However, ones keep turning up somewhere else. So, you do not negotiate with them by dealing with them, or by violence which is their language of a certain sort of negotiation; they can understand that by getting us to fight with them, you can get weaker and more and more wasted.

What does God do, then?

"God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. He does not shut Satan completely down, but He effectively resists Satan and his people. And God's almighty resistance is very effective . . . while He always is accomplishing His all-loving good, which *He* desires.

But Jesus says, "not to resist an evil person," in Matthew 5:39. So, is this a contradiction? After all, we are told to be "followers of God as dear children," in Ephesians 5:2. So, you could think this means we are to resist evil like God does. But my opinion is this all means for us to be together with God and move with how *He* resists evil from His spiritual level, according to His ability so more than ours, with us cooperating with and depending on how He does it.

Because how we would do it . . . would not be able to bring about the best possible results. And we might be focused on only protecting people who are our favorites . . . not being all-loving. And Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46. So, in case our violence is mainly self-interested . . . we can be in a spirit of inferior love, with weakness so we ourselves are suffering the violence of Satanic anger and hatred and unforgiveness and frustration. We can be sinking in a quicksand pit of pig poop all around us while we are righteously punching at the pig poop while it is swallowing us!! Or you can indeed show how tough you are to kick a pile of manure all over a field, and then smell how you have become.

We can consider how things worked with Joseph > Genesis 37-50. He had opportunity to destroy people who had done evil to him. But instead with God making things work out well he used even the evil deeds for his advantage and the good of many other people. Because he was co-operating with God who is all-loving and almighty and creative to manage evil actions to help to produce much greater good than whatever Satanic people had destroyed and taken from Joseph.

And likewise Jesus on the cross lost what He did, suffered how He did, but even simultaneously He was bringing such all-loving good.

Jesus on the cross gained souls, so much more than all He lost in His life. We might note how the good God brings is mainly for Him to get what He wants. God is bringing up children who are conformed to the image of Jesus, so He can love us and enjoy us the way He loves and enjoys Jesus. So, He is able to take advantage of evil for this main purpose, His primary focus . . . I understand through Romans 8:29 >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

However, our own ability for violence "might" not be able to bring God's all-loving results, and it might have our attention away from maturing in the image of Jesus and how He has us relating as His family.

So, we carry our cross, each day (Luke 9:23), *strategically* losing and sacrificing, but discovering how God brings so much more for ourselves and for others . . . how God makes this work. And we discover better than we could have tried to bring for good. And, like I offer, God is bringing all that is for His pleasure and enjoyment, even while doing things in this life for us, to share with us.

So, we need to be very careful, prayerfully careful. Because if God's word really does mean not to depend on violence, but instead to hold out for God's judging and managing what to do while He guides us *how*to*fit*in* . . . if we do otherwise, we are operating in negotiation with Satan on his terms so we can be magnets for how things can work in Satan's kingdom.

And unforgiveness is a part of the process of violence. And we know what Jesus says about not forgiving. We know how Jesus on the cross prayed >

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34)

Right while they were still busy with hating and murdering and torturing Jesus God's own Son, Jesus so prayed forgiveness to them.

But if our violence is in another spirit, we are magnets for Satanic things of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). And in our process of ungodly violence, we can be feeding deeply on Satanic stuff so we become weaker and then can suffer ever deeper cruel feelings and disorderly emotions and dominating demands for vain and foolish pleasures. In the weakness we can become post-traumatic and keep fighting the same battles ever over inside ourselves, among other possibilities.

So, first is to become strong in Jesus, so we are in His almighty immunity against how cruel emotions would ransack us. And in Jesus we have His immunity almighty to keep us safe from bad memories that may attack, but can not get to us while we are obeying God in His peace with His almighty safety and immunity.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And be strong with Him in compassion of love and generous forgiveness. And be pleasing to our Father in all this, sweetly pleasing, fragrant in gentleness and quietness of His "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:28-30).

This is a very wordy way of saying that evil should be allowed to win and not be resisted.

 

[com7fy8]

This is a very wordy way of saying that evil should be allowed to win and not be resisted.

Jesus on the cross did not let evil win. But in defeating Satan, while He was on the cross, He did not use violence.

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Hebrews 2:14-15)

By means of His death, Jesus could "destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Violence can not accomplish this. Even after violence might defeat some enemy, still people can be in slavery to "fear of death". And if you can still fear, after using violence, evil still is being allowed to win! Because "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:18)

And, as I have offered, "God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and 1 Peter 5:5. So, by means of depending on how God handles things, we do resist evil.

So, no I am not saying evil is allowed to win and not be resisted. I gave scriptures to show otherwise, including >

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

There always is the "good" which God knows will overcome any evil, at all. In us we can overcome evil by not letting it decide how we are and not letting it have power over us to make us fear and hate and be unforgiving. And there is always the good we can do, no matter what evil is trying to accomplish . . . like how Jesus so overcame evil while Jesus was so suffering and being hated and denied and dying on the cross. He did not use violence, for doing that.

So, Jesus was not allowing evil to win, while doing that. And He has been getting better results than violence could have done, in the long run.

Violence can not get very lasting results. Jesus can, with how He has done things.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Jesus on the cross did not let evil win. But in defeating Satan, while He was on the cross, He did not use violence.

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Hebrews 2:14-15)

By means of His death, Jesus could "destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Violence can not accomplish this. Even after violence might defeat some enemy, still people can be in slavery to "fear of death". And if you can still fear, after using violence, evil still is being allowed to win! Because "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:18)

And, as I have offered, "God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and 1 Peter 5:5. So, by means of depending on how God handles things, we do resist evil.

So, no I am not saying evil is allowed to win and not be resisted. I gave scriptures to show otherwise, including >

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

There always is the "good" which God knows will overcome any evil, at all. In us we can overcome evil by not letting it decide how we are and not letting it have power over us to make us fear and hate and be unforgiving. And there is always the good we can do, no matter what evil is trying to accomplish . . . like how Jesus so overcame evil while Jesus was so suffering and being hated and denied and dying on the cross. He did not use violence, for doing that.

So, Jesus was not allowing evil to win, while doing that. And He has been getting better results than violence could have done, in the long run.

Violence can not get very lasting results. Jesus can, with how He has done things.

Just so we're clear, you believe that in any case in which violence by evil people is used against us, we must submit to it and die? If someone wants to kill us, we should just present our necks and let them cut off our heads?

 

[zippy2006]

It is an uncomfortable reality that many Christians don't want to recognize but one which C.S Lewis taught us. Violence against a persistent evil, one which cannot be negotiated with or reasoned with is the only solution to said evil. It has taken some of us a long time to come to terms with reality and the necessity of violence, especially of male nature in order to resolve conflict. We as Christians cannot be pacifists and to do so is to let evil win and dominate.

Yes, I agree. And this is also true when it comes to patterns of personal sin. There is something violent about Jesus' instruction to cut off our hand if it causes us to sin (Matthew 18:8-9). Sin and evil are not the sort of things that we play nice with.

 

[zippy2006]

This is a very wordy way of saying that evil should be allowed to win and not be resisted.

It also fails to recognize Jesus' violence against the demonic powers.

 

[com7fy8]

Just so we're clear, you believe that in any case in which violence by evil people is used against us, we must submit to it and die? If someone wants to kill us, we should just present our necks and let them cut off our heads?

No. God is in control of what evil gets to do and not do. So, He is in control so evil does not do whatsoever it pleases. And there were times when Jesus stayed away from people who wanted to kill Him.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No. God is in control of what evil gets to do and not do. So, He is in control so evil does not do whatsoever it pleases. And there were times when Jesus stayed away from people who wanted to kill Him.

So the only choices are to run, hide or let evil get it's way? This is what God desires of his faithful? That none of us may confront evil?

 

[com7fy8]

So the only choices are to run, hide or let evil get it's way? This is what God desires of his faithful? That none of us may confront evil?

No. If Jesus avoided a situation, He was being guided by God. And when Jesus faced trouble and danger of being killed, He did so as guided by God. So, there aren't just multiple choices for us to figure out what to do. But God guides us according to what He knows is going on and how He will take care of us, in any situation. **And God is almighty to manage what and how much people do with us and to us.***

And, for anyone who does die, I consider Isaiah 57:1.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No. If Jesus avoided a situation, He was being guided by God. And when Jesus faced trouble and danger of being killed, He did so as guided by God. So, there aren't just multiple choices for us to figure out what to do. But God guides us according to what He knows is going on and how He will take care of us, in any situation. **And God is almighty to manage what and how much people do with us and to us.***

And, for anyone who does die, I consider Isaiah 57:1.

Alright and you believe no one is guided by God to directly confront evil?

 

[com7fy8]

Alright and you believe no one is guided by God to directly confront evil?

I would say Christians who are police officers and military people and prison guards can be guided in how the deal with evil people.

And in my case I would say God has me deal with evil, mainly by prayer and example and encouraging people who have to face evil. And simply trust God.

But if I am a weak person with no weapon, it can be smarter to try to negotiate, than to fight with a dangerous person; because fighting could make things more dangerous.

I know church people who have guns in case of a church attack. But I am noticing how they can have emotional problems, perhaps because of depending on their guns and having ego issues about having a gun. A gun can be an idol. And control can be an idol.

But can a mature Christian be guided to have a gun? I suppose so. But I do see how having a gun and becoming able to use violence correctly, surgically, would require a lot of training and practice. This investment could interfere with all the Christian's loving and caring and helping which take time.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I would say Christians who are police officers and military people and prison guards can be guided in how the deal with evil people.

And in my case I would say God has me deal with evil, mainly by prayer and example and encouraging people who have to face evil. And simply trust God.

But if I am a weak person with no weapon, it can be smarter to try to negotiate, than to fight with a dangerous person; because fighting could make things more dangerous.

I know church people who have guns in case of a church attack. But I am noticing how they can have emotional problems, perhaps because of depending on their guns and having ego issues about having a gun. A gun can be an idol. And control can be an idol.

But can a mature Christian be guided to have a gun? I suppose so. But I do see how having a gun and becoming able to use violence correctly, surgically, would require a lot of training and practice. This investment could interfere with all the Christian's loving and caring and helping which take time.

Alright so unless you're a police officer, military personnel or prison guard, your only solution when confronted with a situation in which someone is going to use evil violence, is to run, hide, pray, talk and or let them do the evil thing?

It would be more evil to defend oneself or another with violence than the evil doer himself committing violence. Do I have this right?

 

[com7fy8]

It would be more evil to defend oneself or another with violence than the evil doer himself committing violence. Do I have this right?

Like I offered . . . if I try to use violence, I could make things worse. In each case, you do not know what would work with the dangerous individual. I have done different things with different ones. God knows each one and He can guide us; I would not recommend some one-size-fits-all approach.

I personally would not train to be a police officer, because I know how I can misread situations. I could kill someone who could be killed another way, plus not use lethal force with someone who called for it.

Plus, if we are with God, He knows what really we will be dealing with. And we need our attention to be invested in the right way. Preparing for half my life for one fantasized violent situation can cancel me out from a lot of good things I can be doing.

 

[com7fy8]

Among other things > we see how some number of police and soldiers have become post-traumatic. They were not properly prepared emotionally and spiritually so that evil could not have power over them! And God's word is clear >

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

"and who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:18)

But ones have been overcome emotionally and spiritually by the evil they have confronted and even have somehow beaten at least physically . . . but not emotionally and spiritually beating the evil!! And ones can become *pre*- traumatic, by fearing and desiring to control imagined future possible evil that has not even happened and might never happen; yet, ones can live in fear and deep degradation imagining possible future evil people coming against them. And they are not loving those imagined people; and so they stay degraded from living in God's all-loving love which makes us strong in our character so evil can not have power to degrade and damage and traumatize us spiritually and emotionally.

God has us praying *for* evil people, ahead of whatever they might do. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 < this confronts evil.

Right while Jesus was still being tortured and hated and murdered, He had the character to keep loving, even praying forgiveness for those evil people > "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34)

So, we have our job description with our specialization in love and mercy and forgiveness. In warfare there are specialists, not all combatants. The support noncombatants can be two thirds of the military organization! And have a culture of what is right, so that children have a good example to help them not to go into what is evil.

And so Jesus did confront the evil, by being a good example of how to love and not allow evil to have power to hurt us spiritually and emotionally . . . even while it might physically hurt or kill us.

If you become degraded from loving, in dealing violently with evil, then evil has beaten you. Some puppet of Satan might have been stopped somehow, but the deeper damage has been done in you.

Yes, in the earlier scriptures, we do see how God used violence, actually ordering the Jews in war to even annihilate men, women, and children when they conducted certain military campaigns.

But I notice > they had a rule that if any soldiers were afraid or if they had not been with their wives, they were told to go home. God expected soldiers to be deeply ready for the violence so it would not get to them and they could leave it behind and get back to loving their families and enjoying this.

Also, when the Jews did things exactly as directed by God, the warfare was swift and efficient . . . not prolonged even for years . . . including having so long to damage soldiers. So, it is wise to make sure everyone is with God, if there is going to be use of violence. Or, you could get tricked into a trap . . . even in just how you prepare.

I personally confront evil, all the time, by refusing to let evil have power to get me to invest in trying to get ready for it, when my attention can be invested better. God is able to guide my attenion according to all He knows is true and going to happen. Jesus said not to premeditate what you will say when during persecution you are brought before the judges; like this, I consider, it can be wise not to try to meditate on and pre-control what I will do in future hard situations. Because I can grow in Jesus and His creativity, so that at some later time I can be more creative than I am now, for handling anything. God can make us creative, while He will be managing everything better than we can.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Like I offered . . . if I try to use violence, I could make things worse. In each case, you do not know what would work with the dangerous individual. I have done different things with different ones. God knows each one and He can guide us; I would not recommend some one-size-fits-all approach.

I personally would not train to be a police officer, because I know how I can misread situations. I could kill someone who could be killed another way, plus not use lethal force with someone who called for it.

Plus, if we are with God, He knows what really we will be dealing with. And we need our attention to be invested in the right way. Preparing for half my life for one fantasized violent situation can cancel me out from a lot of good things I can be doing.

Are there situations in which the use of violence could make things better or more good? Please answer directly.