Neglected British History

[apollosdtr]

Neglected British History

By W. M. Flinders Petrie, F.R.S.
(Respected Egyptologist)

"By any one reading the best modern authorities on history, it would hardly be expected that the fullest account that we have of early British history is entirely ignored. While we may see a few, and contemptuous, references to Nennius or Gildas, the name of the so-called Tysilio's Chronicle is never given, nor is any use made of its record. Yet it is of the highest value, for, as we shall see farther on, the internal evidence shows that it is based on British documents extending back to the first century. The best MS. of it appears to be in the Book of Basingwerk; it was printed in Welsh in the Myvyrian Archaiology, of which a second edition appeared in 1870. It was translated into English by Peter Roberts, and published in 1811, and a second edition in 1862. This translation is now so rare that I cannot hear of any obtainable copy, and could only work on it by having one of the British Museum copies type-written. Sir John Rhys, who had edited the Welsh, had never heard of an English translation, but found a copy of the first edition in the Bodleian, when I inquired of him. There is no mention of this chronicle, or use of it, by the Encyclopaedia Britannica[…] Strangest of all, a recent study by Professor Lewis Jones[…] He states that the British history said to be in Armorica 'has never yet been discovered'; yet it is known there at least as far back as 940. He adds: 'No document either in Welsh or in Breton has yet been found even remotely resembling that which Walter the archdeacon is said to have brought over from Brittany'; yet the whole document is published, with Walter's colophon complete.

Such an ignoring of public documents seems impossible; yet this is issued authoritatively by the Cambridge Press in 1911. It is justifiable, then, to speak of the Neglect of British History. This general disappearance of a book of primary importance, of which two English editions were issued in the last century, shows how easily historical material may be lost to use, even while many writers are handling the subject.
[…]
Tysilio then states that Caesar began to build the fort of Odina, at some distance from the sea of Moran, or the Morini. There is no place mentioned with the name of Odina; but Caesar states that--among other dispositions--he had sent troops to the Lexovii (Lisieux), and the river Olina there suggests the original of Odina. If so, this gives a presumption that the British account was in Greek letters, confounding Λ and Δ. Yet the name cannot have been borrowed from Caesar, as he does not mention it.
[…]
It seems on every account to be entirely impossible to suppose that Tysilio, or his sources, were compiled from Caesar's narrative. If not, then, as no other Latin narrative is known or would be applicable, we are bound to refer this strongly British account to a British source.

The British source was not quite contemporary, the small errors, as to Laberius being killed in the first campaign, as to the use of the stakes, and Caesar staying in London, show that some time had passed before writing. But the narrative is too close to place it much beyond the actual eyewitnesses.
[…]
Here in eight passages Gloucester is named in details not necessary to the history. This points to the original document of Tysilio being the chronicle of the kingdom of Gloucester.
[…]
There is, however, internal evidence that this was written before Claudius. It is after passing the Malua that Brutus arrives in Mauretania. Now Mauretania was only west of the Malua originally; but in the early imperial changes the east of that river was included, and Claudius constituted two Mauretanias, Tingitana and Caesariensis, divided by the river. The geography of the Brut is, then, older than Claudius."

Neglected British history, by W.M. Flinders Petrie. <From the Proceedings of the British academy, vol. VIII> : Petrie, W. M. Flinders (William Matthew Flinders), 1853-1942. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

_________________________________________________
Why did no one listen to this famous Egyptologist who had proven his worth to the reading public?
Why was Tysilio's account of the History of the Britons allowed to be pushed to the side?
This book goes on to show that the conquest by the Saxons was more of an infiltration into the less populated areas.
Did even this much of Petrie's work make it into the mainstream?

 

[apollosdtr]

Part II

The Chronicle of the Kings of Britain:
Translated from the Welsh Copy Attributed to Tysilio

By The Rev. PETER ROBERTS, A. M.

1811, first edition

"From hence they came to the Pillars of Hercules, where they were exceedingly terrified by mermaids, who by their songs lulled those who listened to them to sleep, and, when they slept, seized on their vessels and endeavoured to sink them. The adventurers therefore stopped their ears with wax, and after a hard contest escaped from them. From hence they sailed into the bay of the Tyrrhene sea,* on the coast whereof they found four clans of Trojans, who long before had fled with Antenor, after the destruction of Troy; and whom, after mutual enquiries, they recognised, having known them before. Corineus their chief, who was a man of the utmost valour, attached himself to Brutus, and from thenceforth they were inseparable friends. Here they united their forces, set sail together, and came to Angyw, and from thence to the mouth of the Loire, where for a whole week they remained.

Here Goffar, king of Poictou, having heard of their landing, sent his commands to them to depart instantly; and, in case of a refusal, a threat of compulsion. The messengers, having learned that Corineus was hunting in the forest and killing the game, wished to seize and imprison him; and when he refused to submit, one of them, by name Imbert, shot an arrow at him, which Corineus evaded, and before a second could be shot, he struck Imbert to the ground, and dashed out his brains with his own bow. The rest of those who were sent, seeing this, fled, and returned to inform Goffar of what had happened.
[…]
The leader of the vanguard of Goffar's army was Siward, the superintendant of his household, and the most noted of the Gauls for personal strength.

* Neither will the name of the Tyrrhene sea cause any difficulty when it is observed that the writer comprehends under it the whole of the sea that washes the western coast of Europe."

The Chronicle of the kings of Britain : Tysilio, fl. 600 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Includes bibliographical references

archive.org

___________________
"It will, however, be in place to say, that at that time the Picts, divided into two tribes, called Dicalydones and Verturiones…"--Ammianus Marcelinus

"One of the chief tribes of the Picts, located in the central Highlands, is called the Dicalydones, which reminds one of the "Duecaledonian Ocean", Ptolemy's name for the sea beyond Scotland."--A. R. Burns, Agricola and Roman Britain

 

[apollosdtr]

Part III

"The swarthy complexion and curled hair of the Silures, together with their situation opposite to Spain, render it probable that a colony of the ancient Iberi possessed themselves of that territory."
--Tacitus, Agricola

"The ancient throne was, however, in existence in that part of Wales formerly denominated Siluria, and though its practical authority was curtailed, yet it was genuine and vigorous, and laid claim to all its primitive rights and privileges. Under its protection also flourished Bardism in its native integrity. The correctness of this hypothesis is attested by the unanimous voice of our traditionary documents; and it is remarkable that all those which relate to the doctrine and institutes of the primitive system are invariably written in the Silurian dialect. ... In Siluria, Bardism still observed its original principles, and Bran, as a member, would be bound by its rules to lay the doctrine of Christianity which he had embraced before a Gorsedd, or public convention, as far as was practicable. This, it is admitted, was not a very feasible task, for although the region was not finally reduced before the year 77, yet it was in the meanwhile the scene of active warfare, and the open proceedings of the Bards would be particularly opposed by the Romans, being regarded by them as the especial source of patriotism, freedom, and independence. This was remarkably instanced in the conduct of Suetonius Paulinus, who so cruelly massacred an assembly of Druids, and cut down their sacred groves in the isle of Anglesey about the year 59."
--Williams, Ecclesiastical Antiquities of the Cymry

"Professor Rhys goes so far as to refer Druidism to the Silurian race, because Caesar mentions Britain as the birthplace of that cultus, and it is of a character which he considers non-Aryan. It is almost certain that second-sight and other ecstatic moods must be referred to the pre-Celtic races."
--MacBain, Celtic Mythology and Religion

"The district round the Phocaean colony of Marseilles was inhabited by Ligurian tribes, who held the region between the river Po and the Gulf of Genoa, as far as the western boundary of Etruria, and who probably extended to the west along the coast of Southern Gaul as far as the Pyrenees. They were distinguished from the Celtae, not merely by their manners and customs, but by their small stature and dark hair and eyes, and are stated by Pliny and Strabo to have inhabited Spain. They have also left marks of their presence in Central Gaul in the name of the Loire (Ligur), and possibly in Britain in the obscure name of the Lloegrians."{Lloegrwys}
--Dawkins, Cave Hunting

"In my belief the Iberians of France and Spain, the Silures of Wales, the Ligures of southern Gaul and northern Italy, and the small dark Etruskans, are to be looked upon as ethnological islands isolated by successive invasions, pointing out that if we could go deep enough in past time we should find that the whole of Europe was inhabited solely by a swarthy non-Aryan population. … The tall, long-headed, dark and red haired men are probably, as Professor Huxley points out, of Scandinavian, and the tall, long-headed, fair men of Low German origin. …The Iberian race is known to the ethnologist and historian merely in fragments, sundered from each other by many invasions and settlements of the Aryan race. It is shown by the researches into caves and tombs to have been in possession of the whole of Europe north and west of the Rhine, in the Neolithic age, and has been traced by Dr. Virchow into Germany and Denmark. …The few native inscriptions of early date found in northern Spain, so far as they can be deciphered, show little resemblance to modern Basque, while Strabo states that not only had the Iberians many different dialects, but several different alphabets as well.
--Dawkins, Early Man in Britain

"The wide extension of the Ligues westward is in agreement with the language of Eratosthenes. According to Strabo (2. i. 40, p. 92) this old geographer taught that there were three forelands projecting frorn the north—the Peloponnesian, the Italian, and the Ligurian—between the first and second of which lay the Adriatic, and between the second and third the Tyrrhenian Sea. When we remember the high reputation and the real merits of Eratosthenes, it is astonishing how little attention has been drawn to the fact that he calls the Spanish peninsula the Ligurian."
--Guest, Origines Celtae

"Avienus makes only one direct reference to the Celts when he mentions that beyond the tin-producing Oestrymnides was a land now occupied by the Celts, who took it from the Ligurians."
--Cunliffe, Ancient Celts.

 

[apollosdtr]

Part IV

"Many archaeologists still hold this view of a grand iron-age Celtic culture in the centre of the continent, which shrank to a western [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] after Roman times. It is also the basis of a strong sense of ethnic identity that millions of members of the so-called Celtic diaspora hold. But there is absolutely no evidence, linguistic, archaeological or genetic, that identifies the Hallstatt or La Tène regions or cultures as Celtic homelands. The notion derives from a mistake made by the historian Herodotus 2,500 years ago when, in a passing remark about the “Keltoi,” he placed them at the source of the Danube, which he thought was near the Pyrenees. Everything else about his description located the Keltoi in the region of Iberia.
[…]
So, based on the overall genetic perspective of the British, it seems that Celts, Belgians, Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Vikings and Normans were all immigrant minorities compared with the Basque pioneers, who first ventured into the empty, chilly lands so recently vacated by the great ice sheets."

Myths of British ancestry

Everything you know about British and Irish ancestry is wrong. Our ancestors were Basques, not Celts. The Celts were not wiped out by the Anglo-Saxons...

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk

"…it is misleading for you to talk about frequencies of the R male lineage in different European countries as if this constituted a uniform genetic background, since there are actually two main R groups, which split tens of thousands of years ago outside Europe and had completely different modes of spread and present distributions in Europe. R1b expanded from the Basque Ice Age refuge and predominates in extreme western Europe, being found at only 20 per cent or less in Russia and the Baltic states. R1a1, on the other hand, predominates in eastern Europe, and to a lesser extent in Scandinavia. I deal with the spread of both major R lineages at length in chapters 3 and 4 of my book The Origins of the British."

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/mythsofbritishancestryrevisited

In fact, Herodotus says the Cynetes are beyond the Kelts... and the Cynetes are the Conii, South-Western Iberian Peninsula.

"Tacitus states that the Silures, the people who occupied what is now the South Wales Coalfield, had curly hair and a swarthy complexion. He attributed it to their Iberian origin.The name Silures has defied an explanation from Celtic sources as have certain place names in the territory ccupied by the Silures, e.g. Ewyas, as in Ewyas Harold and Ewyas Lacy in western Herefordshire. The referencing sixth-century By.C. Phoenician periplus to a 'Mons Silurus' in Spain, pointed out by D'Arbois de Jubainville, is not without interest.
One of the Mabinogion tales, the story of Kulwch and Olwen, refers to an immigrant people: 'When I first came hither, the wide valley you see was a wooded glen. And a race of men came and rooted it up.' Giraldus Cambrensis mentions that the Welsh had a dark complexion and about seven hundred years later Baxter observed that the 1,104 Welshmen who served in the Union Army during the American Civil War had darker hair than the English, Scots, or Irish soldiers. Although the Welsh were the shortest of the 30,000 soldiers emanating from the British Isles, averaging only 5 ft. 6 in. in height, they nevertheless possessed the greatest mean circumference of chest."
--Watkin, The Welsh Element in the South Wales Coalfield

This was a blood-type survey, from 1965, which showed the actual miners to be Type O.

Those short sturdy miners:

"Strabo reports of Posidonius ... 'The Cassiterides are ten in number, and lie near each other in the ocean, towards the north from the haven of the Artabri: one of them is desert, but the others are inhabited by men in black cloaks, clad in tunics reaching to the feet, and girt about the breast; walking with staves, and bearded like goats. They subsist by their cattle, leading for the most part a wandering life. And having metals of tin and lead, these and skins they barter with the merchants for earthenware and salt, and brazen vessels.' ... Solinus ... states that 'a stormy channel separates the coast which the Damnonii occupy from the island Silura, whose inhabitants preserve the ancient manners, reject money, barter merchandise, value what they require by exchange rather than by price, worship the gods, and both men and women profess a knowledge of the future.'... Firbolg and Firdomnan harmonises very singularly with the legendary accounts of the tin workers of Cornwall and the tin islands. It is not difficult to recognise in the tradition that the Firbolg derived their name from the leathern sacks which they filled with soil, and with which they covered their boats, and the Firdomnan from the pits they dug, the people who worked the tin by digging in the soil and transporting it in bags to their hide-covered boats."
--Skene, Celtic Scotland,v1

"These relations between southern Spain and the British is probably the reason why the name of the Silures of Wales coincides with that of the mons Silurus (Avieno, 433), Sierra Nevada. The Iberian type of Silures, which Tacitus noted (Agrecola, 11), is still found in Wales and Ireland."
--Schulten, Tartessos (translated)

 

[Lazarus Short]

Excellent! Thank you.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I should mention that I recently finished reading "The Drama of the Lost Disciples," by George F. Jowett. It has a fair number of typos, and needed an editor, but the information is just amazing - the early history of Christianity in Britain. It would seem that Britain was the nation spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 21:43.

 

[apollosdtr]

Excellent! Thank you.

Thank you for saying so. And it all seems to tie the Britons and Bretons and Basques to Atlantis, in my Chasing Atlantis thread. Because really, there was no need to chase Atlantis after all... the DNA of Britain ties them to the Basques, and the Basques are Gwysgwn (Gascony) from the Triads. I'm thinking that many of the words called Welsh may actually be Cornish. And the Silurian Dialect would not have been pointed out by Williams if it had been the language of all the Welsh.

I am now digging through the remnants of Cornish to find the words "ddeffro Bain". Because I don't believe someone writing Constantinople in the parentheses is much to go on. Somerset was literally the Summerland. We don't know who wrote which Triad when, but Jenner's list in the Handbook of Cornish offers many places to start.

As for the Tysilio Chronicle... I don't find anything to prove the Trojan DNA in Britain. It is interesting that he calls the Picts (Poictou) Gauls, though. The Gauls are Caesar's Celts... big red-blondes of the Germanic persuasion... who came to Alban across the British channel (the sea of Llychlyn).

"Triad IX. The three Invading Tribes, that came into the Isle of Britain, and who never departed from it. The first were the Coraniaid [Coranians], who came from the country of Pwyl. Second, the Gwyddyl Ffichti [Irish Picts], who came to Alban by the sea of Llychlyn [Denmark]. Third, the Saeson [Saxons]. The Coranians are situated about the river Humber and the shore of the German Ocean; and the Irish Picts are in Alban, on the shore of the sea of Denmark. The Coranians and the Saxons united, and brought the Loegrians into confederacy with them by violence and conquest, and afterwards took the crown of the monarchy from the nation of the Cymry. And there remained none of the Loegrians, that did not become Saxons, except such as are found in Cernyw [Cornwall], and in the district of Carnoban, in Deira and Bernicia. Thus the primitive nation of the Cymry, who preserved their country and language, lost the sovereignty of the Isle of Britain, through the treachery of the tribes seeking refuge, and the devastation of the three invading tribes.
[The Coraniaid, above mentioned, are probably the same with the Coritani. In another Triad they are stated, by an antient annotator, to have come originally from Asia. They are also mentioned in two other Triads, in one of which they are said to
have come to Britain in the time of Lludd…]"--The Cambro-Briton

This triad knows the name of the German Ocean... so the other Triad where the hazy sea is mentioned and somebody thought it was the German Ocean, as though there was only one hazy sea or ocean... and people bought into that, too.

The real problem is who's being called Celts and who's a Celtic-speaker... they don't match. Caesar's big red-blondes are the Celts... but Lluyd called the language of the Welsh, Irish, Cornish, and Armoricans the Celtic language. Both of those things can't be true, as Cunliffe points out, and so does Koch. Lluyd was obviously wrong. And if the DNA proves us to come from Iberia, then the language is Iberian, not Celtic. Caesar's Celts spoke a Germanic language. People who want to call Gauls and Celts the same thing aren't wrong... what's wrong is calling the indigenous Silurians the Celts. And the Silurians were also the Druids.

So what's happened is... the careless historians have given the invading Germans... the history of the indigenous Iberians.

 

[apollosdtr]

Part V

"The three National Pillars of the Isle of Britain. First, Hu Gadarn, [Hu the Mighty], who originally conducted the nation of the Cymry into the Isle of Britain. They came from the Summer-Country, which is called Deffrobani, (that is, the place where Constantinople now stands), and it was over the Hazy Sea, [the German Ocean], that they came to the Isle of Britain, and to Llydaw, [Armorica], where they continued.
--The Triads No. II

"Goruc Hugadarn gymmhrain
Ar Gymry Ynys Prydain
I ddyffryd o ddeffro Bain."

The achievement of Hu the Mighty, was forming social order
For the Cymry of the Isle of Britain,
To stream out of Deffrobani.--Iolo MSS. pp. 262, 669.

"Triad VII. The three Social Tribes of the Isle of Britain. The first was the nation of the Cymry, that came with Hu the Mighty into the isle of Britain, because he would not possess lands and dominion by fighting and pursuit, but through justice and in peace. The second was the tribe of the Lloegrwys [Loegrians], that came from the land of Gwasgwyn [Gascony], being descended from the primitive nation of the Cymry. The third were the Brython, who came from the land of Armorica, having their descent from the same stock with the Cymry. These were called the three Tribes of Peace, on account of their coming, with mutual consent, in peace and tranquillity: and these three tribes were descended from the original nation of the Cymry, and were of the same language and speech."--The Cambro-Britain

So, the Cymry are definitely not the Cimbri that wrecked Europe when Caesar wouldn't share his ill-gotten gains.
_______________________________________
Please notice that some nameless editor added his two-cents-worth (Constantinople)... it wasn't part of the Triad. And neither were the words [German Ocean]. The words "hazy sea" is used in poetry to describe the river to cross to get to the Isles of the blessed, and to Valhalla, and for the River Styx. It's also found in the one place it actually makes sense:

"British vessel Aratec sighted the white plane north of the Azores, flying steadily over the choppy and hazy sea. Three hours later another British vessel sighted this craft and reported it was heading back towards Europe."

Full text of "Circleville Herald (1928-08-06)"

archive.org

https://cdn.britannica.com/91/3591-050-221C4A8A/Portugal-features-map-locator-Azores-Madeira-Islands.jpg

If I had to guess, I'd say that the Cymry are related to the Cynetes/Conii, South-West on the Iberian Peninsula.

 

[apollosdtr]

I'm thinking that many of the words called Welsh may actually be Cornish. And the Silurian Dialect would not have been pointed out by Williams if it had been the language of all the Welsh.

I am now digging through the remnants of Cornish to find the words "ddeffro Bain". Because I don't believe someone writing Constantinople in the parentheses is much to go on. Somerset was literally the Summerland. We don't know who wrote which Triad when, but Jenner's list in the Handbook of Cornish offers many places to start.

There is one pretty big clue for when Triad IV was written... if read in the original language... the dd:

"Triad VI. The three National Pillars of the Isle of Britain. First, Hu Gadarn, who originally conducted the nation of the Cymry into the Isle of Britain. They came from the Summer-Country, which is called Deffrobani, and it was over the Hazy Sea, that they came to the Isle of Britain, and to Llydaw, where they continued.

"Goruc Hugadarn gymmhrain
Ar Gymry Ynys Prydain
I ddyffryd o ddeffro Bain."
"The achievement of Hu the Mighty, was forming social order
For the Cymry of the Isle of Britain,
To stream out of Deffrobani."--Iolo MSS. pp. 262, 669.

"D in old manuscripts, whether Welsh or Cornish, has two pronunciations; for besides the common reading, as in the English and other languages, it serves in the midst and termination for dh, or the English th, in this, that, &c. So, medal, soft, is to be read, medhal; echvυδ the evening, echuydh; hvρδ a ram, hurdh; and heιδ barley, haidh: dd was introduced to express this found about the year 1400; and In the time of Henry VIII. &c. d pointed at the top or underneath by H. Lhuyd and W. Salisbury at home, and by Dr. Gryffydh Roberts and Roger Smyth in the Welsh books they printed beyond sea. In the reign of Queen Elizabeth Dr. J. D. Rhys, Dr. D. Powel, and others, used dh; which was afterwards rejected by Dr. Davies, and dd restored.
--Pryce, Archaeologia Cornu-Britannica

Triad VI. with the double dd of "ddeffro Bain" is no earlier than 1400.

In transcribing Pryce, I've had to try letters which kinda match the Old Cornish that Pryce calls Loegrian:

"Of these ancient manuscripts:--... The second and third seem to have been the old Loegrian British, in some measure yet retained in Cornwall; which I gather, partly from the elegancy of the hand, and partly from some terms; as, moρhauρ, many, much; caιauc, a book (probably from the Latin codice) γuaρim, a play, γuaρδi, a scene, &c. not to insist upon the plural termination of nouns in ou; as, lomou, busbes; ρunιou, fillets; which was constant amongst the Cornish as well as the Armoric Britons, and never used (that we know of) in Wales."

(Caesar said the Druids used Greek letters.)

After this, I went out and found Vocabularium Cornicum... which was called Latin-Welsh until Lhuyd caught on. ... Zeuss transcribed this ancient vocabulary in Volume 2 of his Grammatica Celtica.

It seems like, if you want to learn Cornish, you have to
(1) dig it out of the Welsh,
(2) learn Greek letters, and
(3) learn Latin.
Or (4) trust the New Cornish language scholars to have gotten it right.

____________________________
Aaaannyway... now you know the rest of the story. Because anything worth doing at all, is worth finishing.

 

[apollosdtr]

"But because we have not used these letters for the last seven or eight hundred years, and because the people of* Loiger have lately used them in printing a few books in the old Saxon language, they claim them as their own, and call them Saxon letters. On the other side, the Irish, because they have used them in every age up to this day, assert that from the first they were Irish letters; and, as their nation sent many religious missionaries to preach the Gospel to the old Saxons, they at the same time taught them to write. No one of these two people considered that the old Britons, up to a, comparatively speaking, late period, also used these letters. The author of the Catalogue of Northern Books (Wanley), in the Latin preface to his book—after exchanging a few letters with me, because he had heard that I had said, that we had a better claim to the letters than either the Irishman or the Saxon—has only said in that preface, that the Saxons had not received these letters either from the Irish or from the Britons, but from the monk Augustine, which is equivalent to an assertion that both the Britons and the Irish were taught the use of these letters by the Saxons. This, the gentleman (as if his word was sufficient warrant for the fact) declares, without condescending to prove this assertion by ancient authorities, or attempting himself to discuss the question—even without noticing that I had written to him, to say that these letters were clearly to be seen in the church of Cadwalader in Mona, on the inscribed tombstone of Cadvan King of Gwenet, and that Cadvan had fought the battle of Bangor Iscoed against the Saxons and the monk Augustine. A similar proof of ungentlemanly conduct and impartiality was shown by the author of the Thesaurus Linguarum Septentrionalium (Hicks), who obstinately asserted that the British words found by me in ancient manuscripts, both in the Bodleian and elsewhere, were old Saxon. It was impossible for him not to know that the words adduced were British; for, although he does not understand either the Cumraeg or the Gaeleg, he well knew that they were not Saxon, Scandinavian, or Norman; and he even confesses, in another part of the same book, that one of the books mentioned by me once belonged to the church of Llandaff."
--Williams, Essays on Various Subjects, translation from the Preface to Archaeologia Brittanica by LHUYD

* They may have been living IN Loiger, but they were not OF Loiger.

From the (Loegrian) Cornish Grammar of Pryce and Lhuyd:

"Q though never used by the Welsh and Irish, was yet received by the Cornish, (as bisqueth never) tho' nothing so much used amongst them, as amongst the Britons of France. It seems however to have been very anciently used in Cornwall, in the same manner as in the French language and the Armoric, viz. Qu as K. For I have observed the ancient British name Kynedhav inscribed on a stone at Golval near Pensanz, QVENETAV."

But... what about the p-celt and q-celt language theory?

 

[apollosdtr]

Histoire des Gaulois, by Amidee Thierry

Volume 1, first edition

excerpt {translated}

DIVISION II.
EVIDENCE FROM GREEK AND ROMAN HISTORIANS.
I. TRANSALPINE GALLIC PEOPLE.

"Caesar recognizes in the whole extent of Gaul, not including the Narbonne province, three peoples "diverse in language, institutions and laws [8]", namely: the Aquitanians (Aquitani) who live between the Pyrenees and the Garonne; the Belgians (Belgæ) who occupy the north from the Rhine to the Marne and the Seine; and the Galls (Galli) also called Celts (Celtae) established in the intermediate country. He gives these three peoples taken en masse the collective denomination of Galli, which, in this case, is no more than a geographical and territorial name, corresponding to the French word Gaulois.

Note 8: Hi omnes lingua, institutis, legibus inter se differunt. Caes. nice. Gall. I. I, c. 1.

Strabo adopts Caesar's division, but with an important change. Instead of limiting Belgium to the course of the Seine like him, he adds to it under the name of Belgians parocéanites [9], or maritimes, all the tribes established between the mouth of this river and that of the Loire and designated in the Gallic geography by the name of armorikes, which similarly means maritime and of which parocéanites seems to be only the Greek translation. Strabo's sentiment on these matters deserves serious attention; for this great geographer not only knew the Roman authors who had written on Gaul, but he also drew on the travels of Posidonius, and on the works of the scholars of Massalia (the ancient Marseilles). Moreover, these two opinions on the people called Belgians can very well be reconciled, as we reserve the right to demonstrate later.

Note 9: Τά λοιπά Βελγων έστιν έθνη των παρωχεανιτων. . . Strab. I. IV, p. 194. Paris, ed. in-fol. 1620.

The geographers of later times, Mela, Pliny, Ptolemy, etc., conform to the divisions either ethnographic given by Caesar, or administrative drawn up by Augustus after the reduction of Gaul into a Roman province.

In all this the Narbonnaise is not included: now we find in the ancient writers that it contained, in addition to Celts or Galls, Ligurians, foreigners to the Gauls [10], and Phocaean Greeks composing the population of Massalia, and of its establishments.

Note 10: Έτέροέθνείζ μέν είσί. Strab. I. II, p. 137.

There therefore existed in the native population of Gaul (because the Massaliotes should not find a place here) four different branches, 1. the Aquitanians, 2. the Ligurians, 3. the Galls or Celts, 4. the Belgians. We will review each of them successively.

1. Aquitaine.

“The Aquitanians, says Strabo, differ essentially from the Gallic race, not only by language, but by physical constitution; they resemble the Iberians more than the Gauls [11]. He adds that the contrast of two Gallic tribes landlocked in Aquitaine brought out all the more vividly the sharp difference between the races. According to Caesar, the Aquitanians had, in addition to a particular idiom, particular institutions, but historical facts show us that these institutions had, for the most part, the Iberian character; that the national dress was Iberian; that there were closer ties of friendship and alliance between the Aquitanic tribes and the Iberians than between these tribes and the Gauls, from whom the Garonne alone separated them; finally, that their virtues and their vices fall entirely within that measure of good and bad natural dispositions which seems to constitute the Iberian moral type [12].

Note 11: όί άχουϊτάναί διαφέρσυαι του γαλατίχοϋ φύλου χατά τεν σωμάτων
χατασχευάς καί χατά τέν γλώττα I. IV, p. 189; idem, 1. IV, p. 176.

Note 12: See for details Volume II of this book, chapter La famille Ibérienne, Les Aquitains, et passim.

We therefore find a first concordance between the historical evidence and the evidence drawn from the examination of the languages: the Aquitanians were, without a doubt, an Iberian population.

2. Ligurians.

The Ligurians, whom the Greeks called Ligyes, are mentioned by Strabo as foreign to Gaul. Sextus Avienus, who worked on the scientific documents left by the Carthaginians and must therefore have had great insight into the ancient history of Iberia, places the primitive stay of the Ligurians in the south-west of Spain, whence had chased them away, after long battles, the invasion of conquering Celts [13]. Stephen of Byzantium also places in the south-west of Spain, near Tartesse, a city of the Ligurians which he calls Ligystiné [14]. Thucydides then shows us the Ligurians, expelled from the south-west of the Peninsula, arriving at the edge of the Segre, on the eastern coast, and driving out in their turn the Sicanes [15]: he does not give this as a simple tradition, but as an indisputable fact; Ephorus and Philist of Syracuse held the same language in their writings, and Strabo believes in the Iberian origin of the Sicanes.* The Sicanes, driven from their country, cross the eastern passages of the Pyrenees, cross the Gallic coast of the Mediterranean, and enter Italy. The Ligurians must have followed them, since they found themselves almost immediately spread permanently over the entire Gallic and Italian coast from the Pyrenees to the Arno, and probably lower still.

Note 13: Fest. Avian. v. 132 et seq.—V. the quotation, below, t. I, period 1600 to 1500 BC.
Note 14: Λιγυστνή πόλις Λιγύων τγς δυστιχής ΐδηρίας έγγύς καί τής Ταρτησσού πλησίον. Steph. Byz.
Note 15: Σιχανοί άπό τού Σιχανού ποταμοΰ τοΰ εν Ίδηρία ύπό Λιγύων
άναστάντ l. VI, c. 2.—Serv. Aen. I. VII.—Eph. ap. Strab. I. VI.—Philist. ap. Diodor. I. v.

We knew by the unanimous testimony of the ancient writers, that the west and the center of Spain had been conquered by the Celts or Galls; but we did not know the period and the course of this conquest. The movements of the Sicanes and Ligurians reveal to us that the invasion was made by the western passages of the Pyrenees, and that the Iberian peoples driven back on the eastern coast overflowed on their side into Gaul and even into Italy. They also provide us with the approximate date of the event: the Sicanians, expelled from Italy as they had been from Spain, seized Sicily around the year 1400 [16], which places the irruption of the Celts in Iberia around the sixteenth century BC.

Note 16: I followed Fréret's calculation. work compl., t. IV, p. 200.

Although the Iberian origin of the Ligurians, according to what precedes, is, it seems to me, put beyond doubt, it must be admitted that they do not bear in their customs the Iberian character as strongly marked as the Aquitaine [17]: it is because they have not remained so pure. History tells us of powerful Celtic tribes mingled among them in Celto-Liguria, between the Alps and the Rhone; later even Ibero-Liguria, between the Rhone and Spain, was subjugated almost entirely by a people foreign to the Ligurians, and bearing the name of Volkes.

Note 17: See for details volume II of this work, period 1600 to 1500 BC.

The date of this invasion of the Volkes in Ibero-Liguria (today Languedoc), could not be fixed with precision. The oldest stories, either mythological or historical, and the journeys up to that of Scyllax, which seems to have been written around the year 350 before our era, only mention Ligurians Élésykes, Bébrykes and Sordes in all this canton; the Élésykes are even represented as a powerful nation, whose capital Narbo or Narbonne flourished through trade and arms [18]. Around the year 281, the Volkes Tectosages, inhabiting Upper Languedoc, are suddenly mentioned for the first time, in connection with an expedition which they send to Greece [19]; around the year 218, during the passage of Hannibal, the Volkes Arécomikes, living in lower Languedoc, are also cited [20] as a numerous people who made the law throughout the country: it is therefore between 340 and 281 that should be placed the arrival of the Volkes and the conquest of Ibero-Liguria.

Note 18: See below, t. II, c. 1. period 1600 to 1500 BC
Note 19: Justin. I. XXIV, c. 4.—Strab. I. IV, p. 187.—V. below, t. I, p. 131 et seq.
Note 20: Title. Book. I. XXI, c. 26.

Caesar's manuscripts interchangeably bear Volcæ or Volgæ, when speaking of these Volkes; Ausone states that the primitive name of the Tectosages was Bolgæ [21], and Cicero calls them Belgæ [22]. In their expedition to Greece they had a leader named by historians sometimes Belgius, sometimes Bolgius. Saint Jerome reports that the idiom of their settlers established in Asia Minor, in Galatia [23], was still in his time the same as that of Trier, capital of the Belgians, and Saint Jerome had traveled in Gaul and in the East. According to this, there can be little doubt that the Volkes were Belgians, or rather that the two names were one; and the detail of their history, for they played a great role in the affairs of Gaul, furnishes plenty of proof in support of their Belgian origin. It is therefore necessary to cut off this people from the Ligurian population with which it has nothing in common.

Note 21: Tectosagos primævo nomine Bolgas. Auson. Clear. urb. Narb.
Note 22: Pro Man. Fonteio. Dom. Bouq. Rec. of Hist. etc p. 656.
Note 23: Hieronym. I. II, how. epist. ad Galat. vs. 3.

In summary, the Ligurians are Iberians; second concordance of history with philological inductions."

Histoire des Gaulois (1/3) depuis les temps les plus reculés jusqu'à l'entière soumission de la Gaule à la domination romaine.

www.gutenberg.org

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* (The name Sicanus has been linked to the modern river known in Spanish as the Júcar.)--Wikipedia

The south-west of Iberia is the land of the Cynetes, mentioned by Herodotus as lying beyond the Celts in his days (Cuneus on the R.Wilkinson map of 1786, aka Conii). The Jucar River is on the east of the Iberian Peninsula, above the Contestani.

"The ancient throne was, however, in existence in that part of Wales formerly denominated Siluria… Under its protection also flourished Bardism in its native integrity. The correctness of this hypothesis is attested by the unanimous voice of our traditionary documents; and it is remarkable that all those which relate to the doctrine and institutes of the primitive system are invariably written in the Silurian dialect."--Williams, Ecclesiastical Antiquities of the Cymry

Mount Silurus of Avenius is the Sierra Nevada on the Iberian Peninsula... the Salyes are a Ligurian tribe. The rhotacism (of the Cantabrian i.e., is pre-Roman) added -r- to the name the Greeks called Ligues, so they would have done the same thing to the Salyes above Marsailles. ... The Druids were not Celtic people: the Ligurians had their Nemeton burned by Caesar, and the Ligurians are an Iberian tribe. The Ligurian Dialect seems to have read like a mixture of Celtic and Latin... but it couldn't have been either one, among the Very Ancient Cynetes.

 

[apollosdtr]

"It is difficult for a person of quick wit and lively intellect to become a good archaeologist. That is one reason why it has taken so long to breed archaeologists among the Latin races of Europe to-day. The Latin (and Levantine) brain visualises the conclusion before it has collected all the premisses: it is therefore too intelligent to be archaeologically minded. The Teutonic brain, on the contrary, is content to inspect all its hurdles before jumping them. It is willing to collect evidence even though it never draws any conclusions. And the mere collection of evidence was the first and greatest necessity before archaeology could become useful and effective. Winckelmann was a splendid instance of the unhurried Teutonic temperament brought into prolonged contact with the versatile and volatile humanistic traditions of Italy."
--Carpenter, The Humanistic Value of Archaeology, Vol. 4, p. 3-4.

"the Latin races of Europe to-day"

Not Latinized or Romanized... but the Latin races of Europe.

NOW THIS makes sense.

Because how could what amounts to a handful of Roman soldiers... go from mud-hut to mud-hut all over the Iberian Peninsula, and all over France, and most of Britain... forcing the indigenous inhabitants to learn another language?

I've asked this question time and time again, and nobody even bothers to try answering it. Because it can't have happened the way the old writers want us to believe. At least one modern author says that the Celtic language rose in Gaul... not Celtic from the East or Celtic from the West, but "Celtic from the Center" (Patrick Sims-Williams).

And since the ancients said that the Ligurians were Iberian tribes, and Whatmough calls Ligurians the authors of the Lepontic Inscriptions... Then the "Celtic from the Center" must have started from thereabouts... since Ligurian is seen as a cross between Italic and Celtic. The Halstatt-Celtic myth began by a misunderstanding of Herodotus as to where the Danube began. Clearly, the Cynetes who were beyond the Celts... lived in the Iberian Peninsula. And the Pyrene city which he also mentions was noted by Avienus in the Ora Maritima.

So the Ligurian land that was taken by the Celts... beyond the tin isles, which seem to have been in Biscay Bay... would have been Britian. And the Ligurians spoke this Italo-Celtic from time out of mind. The same red ochre burials that existed in Liguria were found in Paviland cave in Wales.


Languages, and the way they travel:

"...it is a proved law that conquerors, unless they come in great numbers and bring also with them wives of their own race, always merge into the conquered, and their children adopt the speech of their native mothers... the same fate befell Cromwell's Ironsides planted in Tipperary without English women..."
--Ridgeway, Who Were the Romans?

 

[Red Gold]

Good reading!