Needing justification for morality

[juvenissun]

I would agree if a thing can be proven then you don't need faith. However, if you can't prove it, then why would you believe something?

As for your "beyond logic" statement, to be honest, all I see is a creative redefining of "illogical". You simply have no reason to accept such a thing as true.

No. Illogic is logically wrong.
Beyond logic is not logically wrong. Logic/science can not touch it. That is what it means.

Why to believe such thing? Because it is a reasonable extension of logic. The chance of being true is quite high.

 

[PsychoSarah]

No. Illogic is logically wrong.
Beyond logic is not logically wrong. Logic/science can not touch it. That is what it means.

Why to believe such thing? Because it is a reasonable extension of logic. The chance of being true is quite high.

The chance of something which is beyond logic and untouchable by science is undefinable.

 

[Dave Ellis]

All you said are VERY scientific. It is only wrong to those who do not understand. Name ONE on you list, tell me why is it wrong, and I will tell you why is it right.

Nothing I said was scientific at all..... in fact it's hilariously wrong. You can use the example I've already provided. I look forward to you defending a flat earth covered by a firmament using the scientific method. This should be fun.

 

[Dave Ellis]

No. Illogic is logically wrong.
Beyond logic is not logically wrong. Logic/science can not touch it. That is what it means.

Why to believe such thing? Because it is a reasonable extension of logic. The chance of being true is quite high.

Nonsense, there is no such thing as "beyond logic". As I stated before, what you are defining as "beyond logic" is illogic by a nicer name.

 

[juvenissun]

Nothing I said was scientific at all..... in fact it's hilariously wrong. You can use the example I've already provided. I look forward to you defending a flat earth covered by a firmament using the scientific method. This should be fun.

OK, the Bible does NOT suggest a flat earth. Which verse says the earth is flat? (I do not expect you will stay on this issue longer than 3 posts).

 

[juvenissun]

The chance of something which is beyond logic and untouchable by science is undefinable.

Agree. God is one example. And there are many others.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Agree. God is one example. And there are many others.

The problem here is that "God" is a meaningless concept if God is undefinable. God cannot be a matter of knowledge, and one cannot say that they know that God exists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[juvenissun]

The problem here is that "God" is a meaningless concept if God is undefinable. God cannot be a matter of knowledge, and one cannot say that they know that God exists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

So we need to define God at the very beginning. Otherwise, the theology is meaningless. That is exactly what the Bible does in Its first Book.

 

[Dave Ellis]

OK, the Bible does NOT suggest a flat earth. Which verse says the earth is flat? (I do not expect you will stay on this issue longer than 3 posts).

Here's a great site which lays out a lot of verses which support a flat earth. Capella's Guide to Atheism - A guide from an ex-Christian to Bible errors, Bible contradictions, Bible atrocities, etc… as well as general problems with Christian beliefs » The Bible’s flat earth/solid sky dome universe

 

[Dave Ellis]

So we need to define God at the very beginning. Otherwise, the theology is meaningless. That is exactly what the Bible does in Its first Book.

Not really... There is no definition for a god in there.

 

[juvenissun]

Not really... There is no definition for a god in there.

We can make the definition.
A definition is basically an assumption. It could be made as one wishes.

 

[juvenissun]

Here's a great site which lays out a lot of verses which support a flat earth. Capella's Guide to Atheism - A guide from an ex-Christian to Bible errors, Bible contradictions, Bible atrocities, etc… as well as general problems with Christian beliefs » The Bible’s flat earth/solid sky dome universe

Do not link. I won't read it. I am not talking to anyone else. I am talking to YOU.

Give me one by yourself.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

You missed the point, his argument is equally as sound as yours is. If his premises are not supported, then neither are yours.

He has to give support for his first premise.

What reason could he give to support the view that the cookie monster is the grounds for objective moral values and duties?

 

[lesliedellow]

With the whole atheist morality debate I heard a consistent idea from theists is that atheists do have morals, just no reason to adhere to them.

The point is that they have no basis for saying the Nazis were evil beyond their own displeasure at what they did. Even if they had been around at the time, why should their opinion that it was wrong to murder Jews have been binding on the Nazis?

 

[NannaNae]

It's odd when theists think atheists have morals without having reasons for having morals.

As if morality is somehow irrational instead of rational.

you have morals only because someone will throw your fanny in jail for things..

that is why you all make sure that politicians, academics, judges and lawyers and lawmakers of every kind and form and of business and religions.. are as evil as you all want to be.

 

[Eudaimonist]

you have morals only because someone will throw your fanny in jail for things..

I have morals because living in an ethically principled way is the most appropriate way to fulfill my nature and to flourish as a human being. I would refuse to murder, rape, or steal even if I were to live in a society without jails.

If you are admitting that you would commit acts of mayhem without the threat of hell, please remain a Christian. You can't handle being an atheist.

that is why you all make sure that politicians, academics, judges and lawyers and lawmakers of every kind and form and of business and religions.. are as evil as you all want to be.

And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[NannaNae]

I have morals because living in an ethically principled way is the most appropriate way to fulfill my nature and to flourish as a human being. I would refuse to murder, rape, or steal even if I were to live in a society without jails.

If you are admitting that you would commit acts of mayhem without the threat of hell, please remain a Christian. You can't handle being an atheist.



And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.


eudaimonia,

Mark

i'm calling this..
and you vote how exactly?
have you ever voted for a
"conservative" for his real conservative morality and clinton and his cigar don't count..

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

i'm calling this..
and you vote how exactly?
have you ever voted for a
"conservative" for his real conservative morality and clinton and his cigar don't count..

I think he lives in Sweden...

 

[Eudaimonist]

have you ever voted for a
"conservative" for his real conservative morality

Morality cannot be created through government enforcement. Goodness comes from within. I do try to vote for candidates that show some character, and who support the freedom required for individuals to exercise their moral judgment.

and clinton and his cigar don't count..

While I was living in the States, I didn't vote for any Democratic Party candidate at the Federal or State levels. For that matter, I haven't ever voted for a GOP candidate at those levels either, though I have voted for a few ex-Republicans, such as Gary Johnson and Bob Barr when they ran on the Libertarian Party ticket for President.

Generally, I vote for Libertarian Party candidates, but could be swayed by major party candidates who impress me as having significant classical liberal or libertarian leanings. I'm iffy on Rand Paul, but would at least consider him if he were to run for President.

Does that answer your question? Or do you have more questions?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think he lives in Sweden...

Yes, I do now. Though I had lived in America from birth to my mid-thirties. I'm an American who lives in Sweden. I don't think that sharing my voting record here would mean much to an American.


eudaimonia,

Mark