• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

needing a guide to liberal christianity

Status
Not open for further replies.

lutherangerman

Senior Member
Jan 30, 2009
1,367
136
Eppendorf, Germany
✟32,788.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Hi there,

I would like some introduction to liberal christianity.

I grew up as an atheist in East Germany. Sometimes I've had notions that God could exist, but I never acted on them. But with 22 things changed and I became "spiritual". If I believed in God, then always in connection with Jesus Christ, in my mind Christ was a wind that came from where God is.

But I've had bad trouble to sort out. I got sick with schizophrenia and a love relation I've had didn't turn out well.

Some years ago I began dialoguing about God with a christian man I found over the net. I am still fond of his passion for Jesus. However, this man was a conservative and he did something which now scares me about conservatism, a certain fear mongering. IE, sinners will go to hell and God has wrath for some, that sort of thing. I don't deny this has a biblical basis, but I do have big problems of it, it goes against a lot of what I believe in in terms of values, for example, that we are in the image of God and don't deserve to be thrown away into some burning garbage dump, no matter who we are.

The main thing I really like about christianity is how the church speaks about the dignity and value of man, that love is the main part of our faith.

However, as my life has turned out, I don't find conservative theology alright anymore. In fact it really disturbs me. Again, I don't deny conservative theology is biblical and has from this a certain warrant, but I feel like I can't live and think that way anymore. Something in me snaps and I don't understand it.

Just for example, take homosexuality. I thought I had to hate homosexuals, but then I had a homosexual friend and I really loved him. I also went to websites of gay christians and I found they are so sweet, and that the conservative idea of these men and women having to change their orientation and or to stay celibate all their life, is a really messed up thing. It is one thing to call for purity so as to separate our love from our carnality, but it's another to destroy lives with it like conservatism has done so often.

I'm searching for a christianity that is more doable. A God who is more gracious and more forgiving. A lifestyle that satisfies and displays something better than just rules-following and having to be afraid and having to be humble (beyond need). I have an idea of where I want to go from poetry (mainly Gabriela Mistral, if you know her), but I have this scare it is not "legitimate". In short, I want this other, better christianity, but I am afraid God doesn't want it. I am torn between trusting God and mistrusting Him completely. In the past I was often afraid for my soul.

Sometimes I like reading the bible and have enjoyed it, for example John's Epistles or the first book of Genesis. I also really enjoy the prophet Isaiah, the Song of Songs, some of the psalms, the book of Job for its honesty. But other books of the bible just scare me, for example Ezechiel or the book of Revelation.

Although I feel drawn to liberal christianity, I do not concur with all that is said there. For example, I cannot stand the stuff Bishop Sponge speaks about because it essentially nullifies Jesus Christ and the most important truths about Him. That is where I do not want to compromise. But there are things like the problem of hell and the problem of evil, where so far liberalism seems to be better in my mind. At least I want to explore it. I am especially interested in how a liberal christianity and a less scary theology can be deducted biblically. I do want to have a safe foundation.

So I am welcoming all advice and counsel. Thank you very much and may God bless you abundantly!
 

KevinKuck

Catholic Left
Nov 14, 2011
76
3
✟22,711.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Hi there,

I would like some introduction to liberal christianity.

I grew up as an atheist in East Germany. Sometimes I've had notions that God could exist, but I never acted on them. But with 22 things changed and I became "spiritual". If I believed in God, then always in connection with Jesus Christ, in my mind Christ was a wind that came from where God is.

But I've had bad trouble to sort out. I got sick with schizophrenia and a love relation I've had didn't turn out well.

Some years ago I began dialoguing about God with a christian man I found over the net. I am still fond of his passion for Jesus. However, this man was a conservative and he did something which now scares me about conservatism, a certain fear mongering. IE, sinners will go to hell and God has wrath for some, that sort of thing. I don't deny this has a biblical basis, but I do have big problems of it, it goes against a lot of what I believe in in terms of values, for example, that we are in the image of God and don't deserve to be thrown away into some burning garbage dump, no matter who we are.

The main thing I really like about christianity is how the church speaks about the dignity and value of man, that love is the main part of our faith.

However, as my life has turned out, I don't find conservative theology alright anymore. In fact it really disturbs me. Again, I don't deny conservative theology is biblical and has from this a certain warrant, but I feel like I can't live and think that way anymore. Something in me snaps and I don't understand it.

Just for example, take homosexuality. I thought I had to hate homosexuals, but then I had a homosexual friend and I really loved him. I also went to websites of gay christians and I found they are so sweet, and that the conservative idea of these men and women having to change their orientation and or to stay celibate all their life, is a really messed up thing. It is one thing to call for purity so as to separate our love from our carnality, but it's another to destroy lives with it like conservatism has done so often.

I'm searching for a christianity that is more doable. A God who is more gracious and more forgiving. A lifestyle that satisfies and displays something better than just rules-following and having to be afraid and having to be humble (beyond need). I have an idea of where I want to go from poetry (mainly Gabriela Mistral, if you know her), but I have this scare it is not "legitimate". In short, I want this other, better christianity, but I am afraid God doesn't want it. I am torn between trusting God and mistrusting Him completely. In the past I was often afraid for my soul.

Sometimes I like reading the bible and have enjoyed it, for example John's Epistles or the first book of Genesis. I also really enjoy the prophet Isaiah, the Song of Songs, some of the psalms, the book of Job for its honesty. But other books of the bible just scare me, for example Ezechiel or the book of Revelation.

Although I feel drawn to liberal christianity, I do not concur with all that is said there. For example, I cannot stand the stuff Bishop Sponge speaks about because it essentially nullifies Jesus Christ and the most important truths about Him. That is where I do not want to compromise. But there are things like the problem of hell and the problem of evil, where so far liberalism seems to be better in my mind. At least I want to explore it. I am especially interested in how a liberal christianity and a less scary theology can be deducted biblically. I do want to have a safe foundation.

So I am welcoming all advice and counsel. Thank you very much and may God bless you abundantly!

I'd have to say one book that really helped me in my own faith journey was one called "Meeting Jesus Again For The First Time" by Marcus Borg. Like you, I feel that Bishop Spong goes too far and just seems to want to dismantle everything. Also, I would recommend the book "On Earth As In Heaven: A Liberation Spirituality of Sharing" by Dorothee Solle. This latter resource is a really good one for looking at the history of social justice within the Judeo-Christian tradition.
 
Upvote 0

thispoorman

Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with thy God
Feb 13, 2012
119
40
North Carolina
✟28,909.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
Just my thoughts on a Biblical warrant for Liberal Christianity.

On the matter of hell, consider the following Scriptures:

John 3:17-18: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned..." (ESV).

John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has everlasting life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life" (ESV).

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (ESV).

Do you know Schrodinger's Cat (Google it; I can't explain it very well in the time I have)? Before you believed, hell was a possibility for you; now, however, your faith has collapsed the wave function, AND THERE IS NO HELL. It no longer exists for you; dismiss the possibility from your mind. Does this mean that now we can live any old way we want, and sin to our heart's content, and Jesus will forgive us?

Well, sure it does. But Paul's point, IMO, is that, when we are in Christ, we will not think that way. we will WANT to live for him and his will and his kingdom, and our heart's content will only be contented in HIS heart, even though we will fail to live up to these ideals again and again.We will sin, but we will recognize our behavior as sin, and not just business as usual apart from God.

In Luke 17:3-4, Jesus says, "If you brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, "I repent," you must forgive him" (ESV). Now, most of us would, after about the third time, begin to suspect that our brother wasn't being quite sincere in his repentance - and we might be right. But God doesn't work like we do. If the brother is sorry - that is, if he has the right relationship established between God, himself, and his sin - if he sees his sin as sin, even though he may not be able to stop himself - then God forgives him, and Jesus says we must forgive him too. Not simply that we should try to forgive him - we MUST, because God already has, in Christ!

Now, what application does this have to homosexuality? IMO, the Bible does condemn such activity as sin - that is, a disordered rebellion against the order of Creation as established by God. I agree with you, however, that homosexuals (at least those I have known) can be delightful people (just like many other types of sinner). How are we to resolve this?

Romans 8:5 reads: "...those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit" (ESV). I guess what I'm arguing for is something I might call "holy guilt." If an "active" homosexual is willing to submit to God's will, and regret the damage done to his (or her) sexual orientation by the power of sin in this world, and sincerely try to follow the teachings of Jesus and ask for forgiveness for what they cannot help (in other words, resolves to set their mind on the Spirit, EVEN THOUGH they may be in an "ongoing relationship") - then I believe God is pleased, and grants forgiveness in Christ. I really do not see how he could, or would, do otherwise. It is only the resolutely impenitent - those who would say "Forget God and his so-called 'laws', I'm going to do what I want because I MYSELF am the God of my life (that is, they "set their minds on the things of the flesh") - that I think have cause to worry. I certainly am overcome by my own sinfulness, time and again - but Christ came into the world to save sinners, and not the righteous.

In fact, I believe that "the righteous" have cause to fear. Many will say "Jesus will forgive you if you stop sinning!" "As long as you live in sin, you're going to HELL!" I'm not quite sure what these people are thinking. If I could stop sinning, I wouldn't need Jesus. I'm afraid that there are many good Christian people who are walking in darkness, because they cannot see their sin and their need for a Redeemer. "Well, I get unjustly angry once in a while, and maybe tell a little white lie now and then, and sometimes my business ethics might not stand close examination, but I'm not a WICKED HOMOSEXUAL CONTINUING TO LIVE IN SIN!" Here's a hint: we are ALL living a sinful lifestyle, and continuing to live in sin. The key is to recognize that, believe it, and seize the Redemption offered in Christ, falling on our faces before God and calling out for his mercy. This is, I believe, what the Apostle John meant:

1 John 1:5-10: "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness (while we refuse to acknowledge our sinfulness before him), we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light (stained, broken and sinful as we are, bringing our sins to the light for examination and treatment), as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS HIS SON CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN. If we say we have no sin (or that we must strive to be perfect and without sin before God), we deceive ourselves, and the truth (about our sinful nature) is not in us. If we confess our sins (if we agree with God that we are ALL really, truly in desperate need of the Redemption), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned (as, I am afraid, many Christians do, perhaps without really realizing it), we make him a liar, and the truth is not in us" (ESV).

I know that these are only a relatively few texts, but if the Catholics can build the Catholic Church on Matt. 16:16, then surely they count for something! :p May the light and peace of Christ attend your Christian walk, my brother!
 
Upvote 0

KevinKuck

Catholic Left
Nov 14, 2011
76
3
✟22,711.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In fact, I believe that "the righteous" have cause to fear. Many will say "Jesus will forgive you if you stop sinning!" "As long as you live in sin, you're going to HELL!" I'm not quite sure what these people are thinking. If I could stop sinning, I wouldn't need Jesus. I'm afraid that there are many good Christian people who are walking in darkness, because they cannot see their sin and their need for a Redeemer. "Well, I get unjustly angry once in a while, and maybe tell a little white lie now and then, and sometimes my business ethics might not stand close examination, but I'm not a WICKED HOMOSEXUAL CONTINUING TO LIVE IN SIN!" Here's a hint: we are ALL living a sinful lifestyle, and continuing to live in sin. The key is to recognize that, believe it, and seize the Redemption offered in Christ, falling on our faces before God and calling out for his mercy.

I love this post of yours! It really has me thinking of the difference between the use of the word "sin" and the use of the word "sins." Perhaps this is my nerdy linguistic approach to things, but I often feel that using "sins" is not quite as Biblically accurate as saying "sin." We have many sins or might commit many sins, but "sin" is the root problem, not the individual sins. One is nature (sin) while the other refers to individual actions (sins).
 
Upvote 0
Jan 7, 2012
140
16
✟22,850.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
So I am welcoming all advice and counsel. Thank you very much and may God bless you abundantly!

Welcome to the forum. I have to say, you don't sound schizophrenic to me.

People misinterpret Scripture all the time. So let's start with this: develop a relationship with God and let Him lead you to a church. That means an active and regular prayer life. You just need to talk to God and listen.

I don't know if the Catechism is online in German. Here are a couple of the paragraphs about homosexuality:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

You can find it in English here. Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church

Your instinct are right on. Jesus asks for love, acceptance, sacrifice and mercy. To feed the hungry, clothe the naked. He asks us to follow Him down a narrow road to the Gates of Heaven where we have joy in God forever.

Joy.

To bring Christ to one another, we need to live in Him now, in joy in Him. The miracles are real and ongoing. Your life is eternal, right now. God loves you, and always will.

God bless you abundantly in your journey to Him.
 
Upvote 0

thispoorman

Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with thy God
Feb 13, 2012
119
40
North Carolina
✟28,909.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
Hey, KevinKuck! Thanks for the support. As you can see, I'm just a nasty old heretical Protestant who's wandered in here causing trouble - but no, I dont think the difference between sin and sins is merely linguistic (nerdy or otherwise). I think it lies close to the heart of the Catholic/Protestant divide, in that it seems that Catholicism, in the sacraments (particularly the Eucharist and Reconciliation), sees God as making provision for the forgiveness of sins, whereas it seems that Protestantism, in the Redemption, sees God as making provision for the just forgiveness of sin, viewed as an inherent quality of fallen human nature. (Perversely enough, in Baptismal theology, I see the opposite occurring, since Catholic Baptism washes away Original Sin, while those Protestant bodies that practice believer's baptism would view it as a washing away of sins, though a Baptist would probably get huffy about that!)

Bottom line: I think the "state of grace" is probably 1. impossible, and 2. undesireable, in that the concept would seemingly lead either to spiritual pride, or spiritual terror, lest your "state of grace" be bruised like a bad banana. Forgiveness and salvation don't spring from whatever "state" you've cautiously managed to steer yourself into; they spring from the loving heart of Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Living in the Light

How may I be a better Christian?
Jan 7, 2012
923
66
United States
✟23,871.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Luther, I don't think it has to be that complicated to be doable. Study the scriptures, treat everyone with kindness, dignity, compassion, and respect. Serve those who are less fortunate and pray for guidance. I like regular worship and the association with other Christians. Doing good nourishes the soul and be wary of those who spout out proscriptions that don't have a ring of truth. It can also be fun.
 
Upvote 0

ranpleasant

Catholic
Jun 16, 2011
350
25
Dallas
✟23,123.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Hey, KevinKuck! Thanks for the support. As you can see, I'm just a nasty old heretical Protestant who's wandered in here causing trouble - but no, I dont think the difference between sin and sins is merely linguistic (nerdy or otherwise). I think it lies close to the heart of the Catholic/Protestant divide, in that it seems that Catholicism, in the sacraments (particularly the Eucharist and Reconciliation), sees God as making provision for the forgiveness of sins, whereas it seems that Protestantism, in the Redemption, sees God as making provision for the just forgiveness of sin, viewed as an inherent quality of fallen human nature. (Perversely enough, in Baptismal theology, I see the opposite occurring, since Catholic Baptism washes away Original Sin, while those Protestant bodies that practice believer's baptism would view it as a washing away of sins, though a Baptist would probably get huffy about that!)

Bottom line: I think the "state of grace" is probably 1. impossible, and 2. undesireable, in that the concept would seemingly lead either to spiritual pride, or spiritual terror, lest your "state of grace" be bruised like a bad banana. Forgiveness and salvation don't spring from whatever "state" you've cautiously managed to steer yourself into; they spring from the loving heart of Jesus.

You and your man-made church may feel you have a free pass to sin. But I'm trusting my soul to the teachings of the one church created by Jesus Christ, the Holy Catholic Church, and its teachings that we must make an effort to not sin. I believe Jesus Christ will hold us accountable for how we live.

Ran
 
Upvote 0

KevinKuck

Catholic Left
Nov 14, 2011
76
3
✟22,711.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
A wonderful quote from the Catechism that I just ran across, speaking as it does about the ecumenical relationship between Catholics and other Christians outside of communion with the Catholic Church...

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
 
Upvote 0

thispoorman

Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with thy God
Feb 13, 2012
119
40
North Carolina
✟28,909.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
A wonderful quote from the Catechism that I just ran across, speaking as it does about the ecumenical relationship between Catholics and other Christians outside of communion with the Catholic Church...

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

:amen:
 
Upvote 0

Izdaari Eristikon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2007
6,174
448
71
Post Falls, Idaho
✟47,841.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
I'd have to say one book that really helped me in my own faith journey was one called "Meeting Jesus Again For The First Time" by Marcus Borg. Like you, I feel that Bishop Spong goes too far and just seems to want to dismantle everything. Also, I would recommend the book "On Earth As In Heaven: A Liberation Spirituality of Sharing" by Dorothee Solle. This latter resource is a really good one for looking at the history of social justice within the Judeo-Christian tradition.
In addition to those (though I'm not familiar with the second one, might have to check it out), I think you might find Brian McLaren and Rob Bell to be helpful. Probably starting with A Generous Orthodoxy by McLaren and Velvet Elvis by Bell.
 
Upvote 0

Izdaari Eristikon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2007
6,174
448
71
Post Falls, Idaho
✟47,841.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Hi,
I am learning basic. Did Paul write Bible? Is every part of Bible is the words of God?
Paul wrote a lot of the New Testament.

Every part of the Bible is (IMO) stuff God wanted in there. God used human authors to write it, and rather than giving them the exact words, He gave them the inspiration and let them put it into their own words. So, God's thoughts, but expressed in a very human way, and filtered though the personalities and cultural contexts of the human authors.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.