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Need some Lutheran perspective

JesusRocks4Me

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Hey guys. I'm a 19 year old college student raised in a Baptist family by a Baptist pastor. As a young kid, I pretty much did what all other kids did and believed everything my parents said as gospel, so I grew up Baptist. We were Arminian Baptist. Now that I'm older and in college, I've kinda struggled with what I believe. I know absolutely that I believe in all the essentials, like Jesus being God the Son who died for us to save us, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and all that stuff. Being a theology major, I've been taught by a five-point Calvinist professor. I'm not gonna lie, the Bible has a lot about the sovereignty of God, moreso than Arminians like to think about. I'm really leaning Lutheran, but I need some help on a few things.

1) If God has a predestined elect, how can they fall from grace? I know Lutherans believe in very Calvinistic single predestination AND that Christians can fall from grace. How can the elect fall?

2) Why do Lutherans do confession? It seems...idk. I thought only Jesus had power to forgive sins.

3) What is the Lutheran position on dating/marrying someone of another denomination? The girl I'm talking to is a United Methodist.

4) What would I do about church while I'm at college? The nearest LCMS church is like an hour away. I can't drive that far on Sundays. Close enough to drive are Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, United Methodist, non-denominational, and Christian Churches.
 

joyfulthanks

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Welcome to TCL, JesusRocks4Me! :wave: I'm glad you're here.
1) If God has a predestined elect, how can they fall from grace? I know Lutherans believe in very Calvinistic single predestination AND that Christians can fall from grace. How can the elect fall?

Well, first of all, it's not exactly accurate to say that Lutherans believe in a very Calvinistic single predestination. I'm going to quote below from A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward W.A. Koehler. This book has been used as an introductory text for our seminaries, and it is excellent:

We believe the Bible "teaches that God will have all people to be saved (I Timothy 2:4) and that the person alone is at fault if her or she is lost (Matthew 23:37, Hosea 13:9)"

"Human reason cannot harmonize the two doctrines of the Bible, namely that God by grace for Christ's sake will have all people to be saved and that God by grace for Christ's sake elected few to be saved. The two cannot be harmonized. We can only restate what God has revealed to us in His Word. We cannot begin to guess what He has reserved in His hidden wisdom concerning this mystery. God has not revealed to us all He knows, all He did and intends to do for our salvation, nor His reasons for His acts. But God did reveal as much as He wants us to know and as much as we need to know regarding salvation through Christ. God does not satisfy our curiosity concerning His secret counsels. Therefore, we say with Paul, "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)"


Calvinists make the mistake of applying human reason to divine mysteries. If taken to its logical conclusion, this erroneous way of dealing with God's Word cannot help but lead to the false doctrine of double-predestination. As Lutherans, we are comfortable with mystery. We believe what God says in His Word, even when it does not fit into our human scheme of logic.

As to how the elect can fall, I found an excellent discussion of that here:

Is a Christian "Once Saved Always Saved"?

2) Why do Lutherans do confession? It seems...idk. I thought only Jesus had power to forgive sins.

John 20:21-23
"Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Matthew 18:17-18
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus gave authority to His church on earth to forgive and retain sins.

One of the things that used to mess with my mind about confession and absolution before I became Lutheran was that I wondered how on earth the Pastor could know whether or not a person was sufficiently repentant to "merit" forgiveness. Only God knows that, right? I mean, what if someone was just standing there saying the words of confession, but didn't really mean it in their hearts? How could the Pastor pronounce God's forgiveness to them?

Then one day, I was meditating on this passage of Holy Scripture:

Matthew 18:21-22
"21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times."

How sincerely repentant do you think a person is who commits the very same sin against you 77 times in a single day, and each time comes up to and says, "I repent"? And yet, we are commanded not to judge the person's sincerity, but to forgive them freely. God is so much more merciful than we are, and forgives even more freely than this. The Scriptures tell us that if we but confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Upon our confession of sin, the Pastor declares God's forgiveness to us in Christ's stead and by His command -- not because of the worthiness of our confession, but because of the love of Christ shown in redemption He has freely provided for all in His death on the cross.

A Pastor who says to us, based on God's Word, that our sins are truly forgiven us, is a great comfort to consciences burdened by sin. It is a gift from God to be able to hear the comforting words of God's absolution and love.

Besides, you Baptists essentially practice it, too! You just don't officially believe in it, you don't call it confession and absolution, and you only do it once -- when a person comes to faith. I'll bet that when you walked the isle and prayed the sinner's prayer that the Pastor told you that all your sins were forgiven. He was basing what he said on the Word of God, and so are we. ;) The difference is that we also take Jesus at His word when He says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven." And we get to hear those comforting words every week, and not just one time.

3) What is the Lutheran position on dating/marrying someone of another denomination? The girl I'm talking to is a United Methodist.

I'm not going to give you the "Lutheran position," but rather the position of someone who's been married 23 years. It's not wise to marry someone who does not share your beliefs. Thankfully, my husband and I do share our beliefs, but I have known other married couples who didn't agree, and it can make for some very difficult situations, and a lot of marital stress. It's hard to go anywhere in life when you're pulling in two different directions. I think the New King James version of Amos 3:3 captures this problem well: "Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?"

4) What would I do about church while I'm at college? The nearest LCMS church is like an hour away. I can't drive that far on Sundays. Close enough to drive are Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, United Methodist, non-denominational, and Christian Churches.

I think the important thing right now is not to think in terms of practicality, but to continue to search out the truth. God will work out the practicalities.

Hope all this helps in some way. :)
 
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Michaeles

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1) If God has a predestined elect, how can they fall from grace? I know Lutherans believe in very Calvinistic single predestination AND that Christians can fall from grace. How can the elect fall?
The best and simplest comparison I've ever seen is this:

Lutheran: Justification of all people completed at Christ's death

Calvinist: Justification is limited to those predestined to salvation, completed at Christ's death

Arminian: Justification made possible for all through Christ's death, but only completed upon placing faith in Jesus.

Lutherans (unlike Calvinists) believe in an unlimited atonement. Christ certainly died for everyone.
That's it and there's nothing we can add to that. We can only have faith in it by God's grace. We can't "accept Jesus" either; he's already accepted us, so let's believe. That's just my opinion (I'm rather a new Luth. btw).

3) What is the Lutheran position on dating/marrying someone of another denomination? The girl I'm talking to is a United Methodist.
I think that varies like in any denomination. The more conservative people will say it's not a good idea. I personally would definitely be willing to marry someone who isn't a Lutheran.
4) What would I do about church while I'm at college? The nearest LCMS church is like an hour away. I can't drive that far on Sundays. Close enough to drive are Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, United Methodist, non-denominational, and Christian Churches.
I would check out the UM Church. Also Anglican or ELCA if they're close.
 
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JesusRocks4Me

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Thanks guys for the replies! Thanks joyfulthanks! I'm not the best at wording things :p
I really appreciate ya'll clearing some stuff up. There isn't any ELCA churches around here either. There is an Episcopalian church here though. I'm conservative in theology (the Bible is inspired and without error, the Virgin birth, life, death, resurrection of Jesus the Son of God to pay for our sins, and all) but I'm comfortable with things like modern worship music OR traditional, liturgical stuff; and minor ecumenical things, like Passion Conference, Christian music festivals, and other Christian conferences where people from all sorts of denominations come for a weekend or whatnot.
 
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Tangible

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From another former life-long Baptist now LCMS, I just want to encourage you to continue to explore, ask questions, and seek scriptural answers.

For me, the turning point was when I realized that decision theology (sinner's prayer) really is dangerously close to a work we do in order to be saved - aside from the fact that there are no conversions recorded in Scripture that resemble anything like an altar call. So many Baptists if asked would say that they know they're saved because of something they did - accepted Jesus, placed their faith in Christ, surrendered to God - rather than something that God did.

Once I really looked at the scriptures regarding Baptism and the Lord's Supper without that internal voice of Reason saying "I know it says that, but it can't really mean that," then the possibility that God can and does work through physical means to save us began to make much more sense. Lutheran theology always comes at scripture not as "which one of these seemingly conflicting verses is right" but "how can these seemingly conflicting verses both be true." How can it be that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, yet "Baptism now saves you", and "This is my body and this is my blood given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins?"

When I realized that Baptists are really only paying lip service to sola fide when they see faith as something you do rather than something that God gives - by grace alone, and not by works - then years of being burdened by guilt and beaten down by the Law began to peel away.

And when I began to learn about church history, about the early church fathers and what they taught, about the Reformation and why and how it happened, when I learned how several foundational beliefs of Evangelicals are in fact very recent theological innovations with no root in historical, orthodox Christianity, and when I learned what Revivalism and Pietism and Dispensationalism were really all about, then my confidence in what I had struggled to believe for forty-some years was blown away.

My family will actually be moving soon to an area very close to you, and we plan on worshiping at Divine Savior LCMS in Shephardsville if at all possible. With the help of the lcms.com church finder I located an LCMS church within 30 miles from Campbellsville in Elizabethtown (which is a very nice town from what I understand).

I don't know anything about this church, but I think it would be worth your while to call the pastor and have a chat sometimes. He might know about other options available to you for attending an LCMS church or campus ministry. I'm certain he would be willing to discuss theology with you and answer any questions you may have.

Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Find A Church - Gloria Dei Lutheran Church
Test

This place is also a very good resource. There are people here who will be glad to answer any questions you may have or point you in the direction you can go to get the answers you need.
 
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Aibrean

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Everyone pretty much covered #1 so I don't think I need to put in my 2 cents.

As far as confession, it probably wouldn't hurt to read the Catechicsms.

Small Catechism said:
What is Confession?

Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

What sins should we confess?

Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know, as we do in the Lord's Prayer. But before the confessor we should confess those sins alone which we know and feel in our hearts.

Which are these?

Here consider your station according to the Ten Commandments, whether you are a father, mother, son, daughter, master, mistress, a man-servant or maid-servant; whether you have been disobedient, unfaithful, slothful; whether you have grieved any one by words or deeds; whether you have stolen, neglected, or wasted aught, or done other injury.

From personal experience, I'd have to share the same beliefs. My husband used to be SDA and it nearly drove us apart.

Well personally if I had the choice I'd go RCC or Reformed Episcopalian before I'd ever step in an ELCA building (not saying convert...just merely attending).
 
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Studeclunker

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The best and simplest comparison I've ever seen is this:

Lutheran: Justification of all people completed at Christ's death

Calvinist: Justification is limited to those predestined to salvation, completed at Christ's death

Arminian: Justification made possible for all through Christ's death, but only completed upon placing faith in Jesus.

Lutherans (unlike Calvinists) believe in an unlimited atonement. Christ certainly died for everyone.
That's it and there's nothing we can add to that. We can only have faith in it by God's grace. We can't "accept Jesus" either; he's already accepted us, so let's believe. That's just my opinion (I'm rather a new Luth. btw).


I think that varies like in any denomination. The more conservative people will say it's not a good idea. I personally would definitely be willing to marry someone who isn't a Lutheran.

I would check out the UM Church. Also Anglican or ELCA if they're close.

Oh for the love of Mike!! Stay away from ELCA and United Methodist!:o:doh: They'll either destroy your faith or leave you believing in almost any silly theory that comes down the pipe!:tutu: I can't go into any details here because discussing it openly causes problems. Just do yourself a favour and stay away from ELCA! Frankly, I'd rather see you go to a Baptist church then... them.:sigh: Episcopalian can be a problem too. The American version of the Church Of England has some serious issues.

Then again one could say you have Lutherans and you have... lutherans. It could also be said there are Episcopalians, and there are Episcopalians, or Presbyterians, etc... It seems all the major denominations have a liberal, fallen branch that embarrasses the conservative branches on a regular basis. ELCA is... our burden.:sorry::sigh:

Forgive me please for being so blunt, I just don't want you to tar all of us with the same brush, or get stuck in error.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Everyone pretty much covered #1 so I don't think I need to put in my 2 cents.

As far as confession, it probably wouldn't hurt to read the Catechicsms.



From personal experience, I'd have to share the same beliefs. My husband used to be SDA and it nearly drove us apart.

Well personally if I had the choice I'd go RCC or Reformed Episcopalian before I'd ever step in an ELCA building (not saying convert...just merely attending).

Oh for the love of Mike!! Stay away from ELCA and United Methodist!:o:doh: They'll either destroy your faith or leave you believing in almost any silly theory that comes down the pipe!:tutu: I can't go into any details here because discussing it openly causes problems. Just do yourself a favour and stay away from ELCA! Frankly, I'd rather see you go to a Baptist church then... them.:sigh: Episcopalian can be a problem too. The American version of the Church Of England has some serious issues.

Then again one could say you have Lutherans and you have... lutherans. It could also be said there are Episcopalians, and there are Episcopalians, or Presbyterians, etc... It seems all the major denominations have a liberal, fallen branch that embarrasses the conservative branches on a regular basis. ELCA is... our burden.:sorry::sigh:

Forgive me please for being so blunt, I just don't want you to tar all of us with the same brush, or get stuck in error.

God Bless you both; my sentiments exactly!:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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